The Moneyless Manifesto

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7Wannabe5
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I would think smoking would be your next best option?

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

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Smoking could work but I think it keeps for a shorter duration than dried.

Edit: I'm usually fishing in July and hunting in September. As of now my freezer is on from May- early October. Realistically, I need to figure out an ideal method of preservation for about 3 months until things can freeze.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

True. You could smoke it and then keep it in a barrel of salt or sugar. The Native Americans of my region used maple syrup as meat preservative which seems like the most delicious alternative to me.

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by theanimal »

Yes, low temperatures and I have to source my own water. It's doable but I end up having to get water more frequently which takes up more time.

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by theanimal »

Yes. But I go to a laundromat.

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by jacob »

Well well well, turns out he lives just down the road from Paul Kingsnorth of the Dark Mountain Project. I wonder whether that was coincidental or deliberate and who moved first and what else is going on in that area. This suggests that [The Way Home] is one step ahead of prepping as DPM for all intents and purposes considers technological civilization walking dead. They're rather ahead of the curve.

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

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Looks like they're ahead of us in organizing an ERE city.

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by jacob »

@bigato - Kinda tricky. DMP and the whole UK environmentalist movement (e.g. David Flemming, Lean Logic) are quite localistic (is that a word?) and community-oriented, whereas ERE seems to lean more nomadic and individualistic. This makes it exponentially more difficult to put people together in a given space. Remember how nobody could agree on the location of ERE city? Most had various conditions the most important being their location-based job and their family. An idea needs some pretty strong alternative values to override that.

One also needs to worry (probably a lot) about the equivalent of gentrification when starting such projects. Essentially this problem: https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths ... in the US it happens even at the state level, most famously people fleeing from California to Texas (and Washington) but then proceeding to make those places more like the place they fled in the first place (to the exasperation of the natives). You can also see on the internet when a subculture/group suddenly gets popular. This leads to a form of Eternal September resulting in the OGs leaving and restarting elsewhere. It's a really difficult problem.

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by jacob »

I finished the book and it looks like it's Boyle who wanted to create the intentional community. They even have a guest house which is free but only if you can find it ("ask around") which is a clever way to put in a moat. (I kinda try to do the same with these forums.) I think they have higher chances in developing such a community than we have because localism demands people stay in place, that is, people are attached to the place rather than an idea or a particular bunch of people like e.g. ERE City.

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jennypenny
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by jennypenny »

There's a collection of people in the west of Ireland all converging on the same ideas. Colette O'Neill of Bealtaine Cottage is also thereabouts. She has videos of the two of them on her channel.

I wonder if culture has something to do with it. In my experience with friends and family, the Irish value the land as much as the people who've trod it.

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by jacob »

jennypenny wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:34 am
I wonder if culture has something to do with it. In my experience with friends and family, the Irish value the land as much as the people who've trod it.
There was an interesting paragraph in the book about how the English tended to lead with "What do you do for a living?" whereas the Irish lead with "Where are you from?" I find this interesting. Apparently Brazilians might lead with "What soccer team do you support?" (?)

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by Jin+Guice »

jacob wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:45 am
There was an interesting paragraph in the book about how the English tended to lead with "What do you do for a living?" whereas the Irish lead with "Where are you from?" I find this interesting. Apparently Brazilians might lead with "What soccer team do you support?" (?)
In New Orleans "Where are you from?" is THE introduction question. If you answer "New Orleans" the next question is "Where did you got to high school?" and this eventually leads to a dick swinging contest about whose ancestors moved her first (which is kind of weird because if you're white and your ancestors lived here prior to 1865.....). Asking "What do you do" is actually slightly rude here.

The (American) southern (for those unfamiliar, the former Confederate States or the geographic American southeast) question is "Where are you from." However, I have noticed richer people in the more boring areas will ask "What do you do?" Maybe they just know I'm a Yankee though? Being from the "What do you do?" states, I wouldn't have suspected this, but asking "Where are you from?" is actually a much more interesting question and leads to much more interesting conversation.

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by jennypenny »

Another recent conversation with Boyle for those who are interested ... https://youtu.be/-n-Ag6PJhrk. Besides the normal questions, he touched on new topics including living in Ireland, his vasectomy, and choosing to be a hypocrite.

I laughed when he prefaced his comments with "I see the point of optimism..."

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by jacob »

Semi-unrelated I note that he has chosen a lifestyle that's set in the western world around the time between 1820ish and 1850ish ... with lots of "ish" caveats. At that point, there were no more major wars or general murdering but household technology like electricity or steam-based industrial manufactured items had yet to take off. People made most of the stuff on their own. They still sewed their own clothes and grew their own food. Way I see it is like a "primitive tribe" bordering the modern world with some exchange of goods ... like doing youtube interviews and wearing jeans.

That's interesting to me, because I'm aiming my lifestyle at around the time just before mass consumerism entered the world; like a bit before plastics, but with some electricity and limited oil. Call it early 1920s level. I am, of course, being a giant hypocrite about it.

In terms of hypocrisy I think there's a difference between living consistently according to some other era or values or working to change the current era and values with the greatest amount of efficacy. The latter requires some contact with both eras or lifestyles. ERE has the same conflict between consumerism and anti-consumerism when one is literally investing the surplus of one's non-consumerism in companies that promote consumerism. It's practically impossible not to. Therefore I think that some "exchange of goods" between the now and the future is perfectly valid. It's similar to the exchange between the now and the past when discovering a tribe in the amazons. It's possible to reject the values of something yet still deal with it. It's hard to enact any change by completely rejecting "the other".

I like the quip that insofair one is accused of being a hypocrite, one is not aiming high enough.

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

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KK has an old blog post on the Technium about the Amish that relates to accusations of lifestyle hypocrisy. They (the Amish) don't shun all technology, they are just very choosy about which kinds they let into their lives and to what extent.

I don't see it as lifestyle hypocrisy so much as living by playground rules ('make it up as you go along'). Gimmicky, rule-based lifestyles become outmoded quickly whereas playground lifestyles, by their very nature, are always current*. Besides, the people crying hypocrisy often assume rules from their limited observations that the individual never articulated or placed upon themselves.


*and most resilient, and easiest with which to comply.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote: DMP and the whole UK environmentalist movement (e.g. David Flemming, Lean Logic) are quite localistic (is that a word?) and community-oriented, whereas ERE seems to lean more nomadic and individualistic. ...

That's interesting to me, because I'm aiming my lifestyle at around the time just before mass consumerism entered the world; like a bit before plastics, but with some electricity and limited oil. Call it early 1920s level. I am, of course, being a giant hypocrite about it.
It seems like feeling like a hypocrite is maybe higher level analogous to feeling like an imposter.

I've been meaning to post this piece for a while. Toby Hemenway, late great permaculturist, writes about agriculture vs. nomadic lifestyle and also touches on theme of hypocrisy.
I remember telling a friend, “I know that all this schooling has bred me for it, but I don’t really want to contribute to this culture.” That has stayed with me. Sometimes I haven’t had the strength of character to stay true to that vision. Since those days, I’ve moved in and out of mainstream culture a couple of times. But this episode of nomadism has helped firm one thought: that at the end of my life, I hope I’ve done more to stop this culture of fear and create alternatives to it than contribute to it.
http://tobyhemenway.com/697-the-last-no ... e-of-fear/

Anyways, it seems to me that in addition to future/past, local/global, the knowledge/skill spectrum should also be considered. For instance, I have been looking over the entirety of the General Science standards that are to be taught/achieved by 8th grade, and I was noticing that there is great variation over historical time in terms of when Any Human as opposed to Every 8th Grader would have had knowledge of these standards. For example, on time chart 8th grade Physics would barely breach the 18th century, but 8th grade Ecology would be maybe only 40 years out-of-date, and, therefore, more up-to-date than the knowledge held by most of their parents' generation.

Another way this might manifest is the difference between "importing" a computer chip to make my greenhouse ventilation system "smarter" vs. "importing" a book on the topic of genetics in order to make my green pea breeding project "smarter." My eNTP ideal model would be inclusive of maximizing what knowledge/skill can produce within locality. For instance, why not build a foxhole radio using metal extracted on site via Primitive Technology methods, if you can? Why not build a solar cell breeder plant, if you can? I mean, I certainly can't (yet, likely ever), but I think it would be super-cool if somebody could.

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by jacob »

I don't feel like an imposter but imposter is what is implied with the accusation of being a hypocrite.

Mark Boyle said something similar to Hemenway somewhere (book or podcast) about how it's could be seen as hypocritical to appear on a podcast arguing against the culture of podcasts or something to that effect. I've felt the same issue arguing against consumerism but yet having to invest (for now) in companies that promote consumerism. It comes down to a choice between absolute purity and effectiveness. I'm sure there's a pure/nonhypocritical solution but it would be very costly.

Another example is arguing for a return to foraging while eating out of the modern agricultural system. But the problem is that as long as the latter is in place, one can not rely on the former.

To see the challenge requires the listener to see the limits of present system, the future system, and the transition between them. What many people do is to use the accusation of hypocrisy to avoid questioning the present system.

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote: It comes down to a choice between absolute purity and effectiveness. I'm sure there's a pure/nonhypocritical solution but it would be very costly.
Right. In fact, I would argue that it would be currently unsustainable because of "head tax" and/or necessity to compete at similar energy basis. IOW, it's related to function of currently still rising global GDP and global population and declining global resource base. Simple example would be my friend who attempts to run an entirely green lawn care service (hauls rotary mower and other tools around in bike trailer) not being able to pay the rent on his storage garage because property taxes went up. Part of what I was trying to convey in my thread on Renaissance Accounting is that in order to survive my self-employed friend will likely have to be less green businessman than he would prefer just like somebody else who is generating income from Index Fund investment. IOW, survival is impossible without "hypocrisy" whether it is manifested nearby/wider boundary or faraway/narrower boundary. Kind of the way I envision it is that there is a rectangle that represents area equal to "head tax to survive in 2020" and this same area could either be a ring of self-employment around your central circle home, or a cash-crop corner connected to an urban market with a rectangle, or a very thin long rectangle connecting a human brain to the stock market, etc. Obviously, Mark Boyle is currently paying "head tax" equivalent on his compound with trust created with monies earned in modern market.

Another example is arguing for a return to foraging while eating out of the modern agricultural system. But the problem is that as long as the latter is in place, one can not rely on the former.
Right, and, in fact, it would be impossible for all humans to rely on foraging at current population levels. I think Rob Greenfield expressed this very clearly in one of his videos. Intensive, very local agriculture is another matter. Possible, but would likely require something like 2 hours/day per human and great deal of extremely localized application of intelligence. "Copy" not even remotely good enough.
What many people do is to use the accusation of hypocrisy to avoid questioning the present system.
True. OTOH, not to be confused with what ENTPs do, which is to constantly argue (sometimes quite rudely/crudely) Prop A vs. Prop B (ingenuity vs. energy basis, self-employment vs. FI, local vs. low-tech, ...) until they burn off all the coffee they imported into their system and fall over like exhausted toddlers or battery-depleted mechanical rabbits.

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by black_son_of_gray »

jacob wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:57 am
I've felt the same issue arguing against consumerism but yet having to invest (for now) in companies that promote consumerism.
...but you don't have to invest in companies that promote consumerism. IIRC you've said that 1) you haven't ever drawn down on your investments and 2) that you have 50+ years of expenses (enough to last the rest of your life even with no real return). So if you really disagree with consumerism, there is no reason why you, Jacob, can't make ERE work with TIPS or municipal bonds or microlending or any number of other investments. Hell, you would almost certainly be fine just eating inflation with the money under your mattress, given that you haven't even needed to draw on your investments (i.e. you have demonstrated that you don't even need to generate a return). So once again, why do you need to invest in companies that promote consumerism?

And sure, to be fair, most people following the ERE message can't make that work for some reason or another. But that's on them, not on you. Also, yes, it would be a solution that is "costly" to you, but only in as much as you call the missed opportunity of making way more money than you already have and don't need is a cost to you. It seems like the cost would be almost trivial to your current and preferred lifestyle, no? And I'm not saying that you should have any kind of ethical position on whether consumerism is good or bad. If you don't really feel that strongly about it and/or want to invest in certain companies, cool. Although your semi-secret environmental unpinnings of ERE would seem to suggest that you do in fact care about minimizing consumerism.

I know that this post might read with an aggressive or angsty or personal tone. Jacob, please know that I'm just using you as an example here because you've set such a good one already. I have faith in your integrity - at least as much as I have for anyone I can think of. I'm just trying to push back on an idea here, and I think these issues ("purity" and consistency with our own ideals) are actually quite relevant to people who are pretty far along in their own journeys. Please excuse me while I advocate for the Devil. :twisted:

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Re: The Moneyless Manifesto

Post by vexed87 »

@jp, thanks for sharing those interviews with Mark, having enjoyed 'The Way Home' I was really curious about how the cabin looked, and thanks to this thread I now know :lol:.
jp wrote:It was interesting timing for me because after I watched the Boyle video, family and health issues forced me into an internet diet for a spell. Boyle seems to thrive unplugged, but I have mixed feelings about it.
I've read other interviews, and also I think an article in The Guardian by Boyle and he he mentions how he initially struggled with giving up tech for his moneyless project, missing his parents voices on the phone, watching football etc were big issues, at least initially. I think with everything else in life, you slowly become accustomed to living in a certain way, including being largely estranged from close family. For all my own family's faults, I don't think I have the heart to do it personally. He's clearly committed to this ideology. I have a huge respect for Mark, his cabin is a huge achievement. I can only imagine the sense of achievement you get from settling in for the night in that place.

I don't know if anyone else clocked the brief shots of Mark's bookshelves in the cabin video, but I was particularly amused by the number of titles we both own in common. Clearly then it's no surprise Mark's lifestyle resonates with my own flights of fancy. Sadly there are just too many ties to my own little part of England to up sticks and join this intentional community. I'm sure these guys will fair much better than residents of major cities here in England, but I hope my own market town might fair a little better as society's climacteric(s) begin to unfold. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

The hypocrite/imposter issue is something I grapple with internally a lot. Something impossible not to do when doing your best to live with feet in camps of the gift and market economy, the former massively overshadowed by the latter. Yet I acknowledge that's only because I willingly over complicate my life with wants that only the market can provide, for the most park they are perks that keep me comfortable whilst I work the 9-5, for now. Perhaps if I was starting life over again, before I met DW, had I learned about these guys sooner, I might have skipped past the quest to become FI and made a trip out there to try the lifestyle on for size. Who knows how it might have panned out, but I know for sure DW is not going to be ready to try that kind of experiment, back in the real world, ERE style renaissance man lifestyle will have to do for me 8-)

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