ERE with massive spending

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
steveo73
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

ERE with massive spending

Post by steveo73 »

https://www.thesimpledollar.com/review- ... cred-cows/

I haven't looked at this in detail but I thought it was funny in that this idea is very ERE aligned but the outcome is extremely different. I came across this via a Youtube video with Robert Kiyosaki. I think the advice is very similar. It's the create businesses etc and become extremely rich.
Myth 4: Financial Security
Financial security used to mean a steady paycheck and a pension, but the world doesn’t work that way any more. Instead, the true source of financial security is you: the unique skills you have, the experience you have, and the connections you have to others. If you can provide genuine value to others, you’ll always find work – if you can’t, you won’t be finding work any time soon.
Can you see the similarity in some of the philosophy ?

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9426
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Well, as Jacob noted in the book, the obvious difference between an individual in the Businessman Quadrant and an individual in the Renaissance Man Quadrant is that the Businessman is more likely to be locked up with debt and/or employees (leverage) in order to create profit to fund her lifestyle. The more massively spendy that lifestyle becomes, the more locked up with the management of debt and/or employees the business man is likely to become.

A very small lifestyle and/or family business can be more in alignment with Renaissance Lifestyle, because, for instance, you can hire your own kids and their friends as workers, with very little additional responsibility taken on. Or you could justify building a state of the art mini yoga studio in your own backyard in which you can also teach lessons. etc. etc. etc. Whether or not you should take on any amount of debt towards small business creation/development is debatable. Sometimes an opportunity may merit such a move. For instance, there were times I was tempted to borrow money in order to buy an entire library collection for resale. Other times it is best to beware of the lure of OPM. Probably best rule of thumb would be to make sure money is truly your limiting factor towards success before taking on business debt.

Generally, I see a dearth of movement through active businessman or self-employment option/quadrant on this forum. In particular, I would greatly encourage any couple with children who are currently both in salary person quadrant to try to have one partner move towards this option ASAP. The increased flexibility alone can result in great deal of savings and/or great improvement in quality of life for same amount of $$ spent. Absolutely one of the best decisions I ever made, and I only wish I had done it sooner.

tonyedgecombe
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:11 pm
Location: Oxford, UK Walkscore: 3

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by tonyedgecombe »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:00 am
Generally, I see a dearth of movement through active businessman or self-employment option/quadrant on this forum. In particular, I would greatly encourage any couple with children who are currently both in salary person quadrant to try to have one partner move towards this option ASAP. The increased flexibility alone can result in great deal of savings and/or great improvement in quality of life for same amount of $$ spent. Absolutely one of the best decisions I ever made, and I only wish I had done it sooner.
This is a good point, I've been running my own business for twenty years now. The flexibility it offers has eliminated a lot of problems we probably would have dealt with by throwing money at them.

steveo73
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by steveo73 »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:00 am
Well, as Jacob noted in the book, the obvious difference between an individual in the Businessman Quadrant and an individual in the Renaissance Man Quadrant is that the Businessman is more likely to be locked up with debt and/or employees (leverage) in order to create profit to fund her lifestyle. The more massively spendy that lifestyle becomes, the more locked up with the management of debt and/or employees the business man is likely to become.
I agree but I think that guy is actually stating that you want to become very much a renaissance man but he has his own version of it. It's like a scaled up version of ERE without the frugality and they add in stuff like legal entities to avoid tax.

To be honest I haven't really watched much of his stuff but I did just download a couple of his books. I find it fascinating in multiple ways. There appears to be a whole bunch of Robert Kiyosaki videos on YouTube and it's interesting what these guys say but also how they market themselves. These videos are new with heaps of views and I assume a lot of it is fake.

I'm not a fan of gold and I'm now also sure my approach is correct because Kiyosaki is going on about fake money and how gold isn't fake money.

I should add that I have no interest in living large like these guys state or in living in debt or anything like that. I don't even find it appealing.

steveo73
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by steveo73 »

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:02 am
This is a good point, I've been running my own business for twenty years now. The flexibility it offers has eliminated a lot of problems we probably would have dealt with by throwing money at them.
I'm an income earner who saves. I've been lucky to have a fair bit of flexibility in my job throughout the years and it's worked out well. I do think though that owning a business can be a good path to wealth. I am though lazy. I want to retire and just not work. My life will be pretty much the same. I see managing a business as more work which is something I want to avoid.

oldbeyond
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:43 pm

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by oldbeyond »

I've been thinking a bit about this recently as it has been discussed a bit on the forums in recent months, like the thread on Wall Street Playboys etc. There is a lot of thinking in systems and flows in the business man quadrant and on the "elite ladder". The main differences seems to be a lack of interest in ecological realities and in interactions with the world outside the realms of finance and status hierarchies. Very similar techniques pursuing very different values ("real money" and "real status" vs "real efficiency" and "real mastery").

Jason

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by Jason »

I think the question is what is "general value."

The bottom line is that the difference between me and Robert Kiyoski and his rich father bros is ultimately negligible when compared to the difference me and some third world country guy taking a dump on the side of his hut while a cruise missile decapitates his last remaining rooster. I would actually state there is no real qualitative difference between me and RK, only quantitative differences. He has more and better of the same things I have. He flies in his private plane to Paris and I fly regular. But we will both end up staring at the same art work. And you have to think of where these "general value" issues lead. For instance, I was thinking why so many people fell into Jeffrey Epstein's orbit and one conclusion that I had was that in order for the mega rich to truly differentiate themselves from the rest of us ordinary folk is to break laws and/or social mores and get away with it being that the basic material differences are no longer satisfactory in the creation of hierarchies. The degree of impunity from basic laws and social conventions has become the true arbiter of exclusivity and it worked until Epstein got Me Tooed. I actually think this thinking explains how our President got into this (or possibly why he wanted to) get into his current situation. Proving he can do things you and I can't is how he differentiates himself and "general value" is prescribed to those people who can or are willing to assist him in the matter.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9426
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

oldbeyond wrote:The main differences seems to be a lack of interest in ecological realities and in interactions with the world outside the realms of finance and status hierarchies.
Bingo. The infinite pie is very dependent upon a self-referential definition of "innovation" and/or very strong suspension of disbelief in relationship to the physics of Star Trek.

However, that is not to say that what we mean when we speak of "innovation" does not exist. Our design "just" needs to reach the level of super-intelligent some time before we reach 10 billion. :roll: It could happen. At the household or personal economy level it definitely can happen, because you don't have to be super-intelligent to solve the problem(s) just for you and maybe a few of your friends. The main problem is maintaining that boundary without feeling like an azzhole.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15980
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by jacob »

@7wb5 - The intensity of infinity pie/innovation beliefs correlate strongly with life/vocation experience in which all and any things become real as long as you can imagine them or pay for them. By things, I mean the production usage of intermediate goods. This creates just enough confidence to think that it's possible to build anything w/o ever having questioned the existence of inputs and their physical constraints. Engineers are particularly susceptible (*trigger warning*) with those engineers working on virtual intermediate goods like computer programs or financial synthetics being the most intense.

I agree that solving "the problem" on the household scale is possible and I think ERE is one such innovation. The whole problem (the "predicament") on a global scale either does require super intelligence or at least it requires everybody solving "the problem" at the local scale first. I've been banging my head at the big problem for 3+ years now ... not much further than when I began. The difference between the two being "other people". Since I'm getting nowhere, my operating framework is probably wrong.

chenda
Posts: 3302
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by chenda »

@jason - agreed, kinda like the narcissism of small differences.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9426
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Jason wrote:The bottom line is that the difference between me and Robert Kiyoski and his rich father bros is ultimately negligible when compared to the difference me and some third world country guy taking a dump on the side of his hut while a cruise missile decapitates his last remaining rooster.
No. The essential difference between you and decimated rooster guy is also ultimately negligible. And, IMO, that is why Jacob is stuck banging his head. Every peasant woman left in China wants her daughter to be able to fly on an airplane to Paris some day. And, I am not judging, because I am happy that my baby girl can do that too.

Jason

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by Jason »

Are you actually saying the divide between me sitting in my chair watching documentaries on children being blown to bits while playing in the streets of Syria and those children actually being blown to bits in the streets of Syria is as negligible as me driving a 2017 Subaru to the American Airlines terminal and Robert Kioyiski driving a 2020 BMW with RICH DAD license plates to his private hangar?

steveo73
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by steveo73 »

Jason wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:10 am
The bottom line is that the difference between me and Robert Kiyoski and his rich father bros is ultimately negligible when compared to the difference me and some third world country guy taking a dump on the side of his hut while a cruise missile decapitates his last remaining rooster. I would actually state there is no real qualitative difference between me and RK, only quantitative differences.
I agree with this. The difference in lifestyle and happiness is negligible at best between people in first world countries who are big spenders and normal or low spenders. Sure you may be able to eat out every day, drive a Porsche and travel first class or own your own jet but these things aren't really going to make a huge difference to your happiness.

steveo73
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by steveo73 »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:36 pm
Bingo. The infinite pie is very dependent upon a self-referential definition of "innovation" and/or very strong suspension of disbelief in relationship to the physics of Star Trek.

However, that is not to say that what we mean when we speak of "innovation" does not exist. Our design "just" needs to reach the level of super-intelligent some time before we reach 10 billion. :roll: It could happen. At the household or personal economy level it definitely can happen, because you don't have to be super-intelligent to solve the problem(s) just for you and maybe a few of your friends. The main problem is maintaining that boundary without feeling like an azzhole.
I think the idea that there is an infinite pie is just bullshit that these guys state to sell their product. Don't worry about how much is available because you can have it all. Everyone can have it all. The reason you don't have it all is just a mind-set change and if you pay us x amount of dollars you can get that.

steveo73
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by steveo73 »

jacob wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:09 pm
Since I'm getting nowhere, my operating framework is probably wrong.
This is a good way to think. My take is that the problem is a lot more complex and possibly not even a problem. I do think if people live well on the local scale first then the whole problem will tend to go away.

Living well on a local scale though is exceptionally hard for the average person. I have 2 teenagers and an 8 yo. I'd like to eat more and more vegan based foods. It's healthier (trigger warning despite the massive amount of evidence behind this) plus it's better for the environment but try getting my children to follow that path let alone the extended family.

China to me is a classic example of how stuff can be fixed on a global scale via their 1 child policy. China though would have a lot more environmental problems than Australia.

My opinion is that over time humans tend to optimise. If you need proof all you have to do is look at how amazing the development of human beings is. We can fly across countries and type crap into message boards like this. I'm 46. When I was a kid I remember having dial up phones and a black and white TV.

chenda
Posts: 3302
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by chenda »

@steveo73 - The one child policy brought a lot of other problems, not least a massive glut of men who will never be able to marry as there aren't enough women to go around.

steveo73
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by steveo73 »

chenda wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:03 am
@steveo73 - The one child policy brought a lot of other problems, not least a massive glut of men who will never be able to marry as there aren't enough women to go around.
Yep. China isn't perfect. I wonder about your comment though. I mean I've heard that but why would there be a glut of men over women. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. I also wonder if men are never able to marry will it be that bad.

I think that over time when people become more advanced we tend to have less children and I'd like to think we are more efficient in our energy and resource usage. Our knowledge is improving over time as well and I think we tend to make better decisions.

chenda
Posts: 3302
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by chenda »

A cultural preference for boys combined with ready availability of ultrasound and abortions. Lots of baby girls got terminated and hence the shortfall in women. I'm sure attitudes are changing but it's created a major social problem for China.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9426
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Are you actually saying the divide between me sitting in my chair watching documentaries on children being blown to bits while playing in the streets of Syria and those children actually being blown to bits in the streets of Syria is as negligible as me driving a 2017 Subaru to the American Airlines terminal and Robert Kioyiski driving a 2020 BMW with RICH DAD license plates to his private hangar?
Okay, obviously being blown to bits at age 4 is a game-ender, as well as a tragedy.

Do the math. You are, I think, 55. Kiyosaki is 72. You are both very intelligent men in possession of at least enough innate tendency towards azzholery to effectively "walk fence" or maintain boundaries on that which is yours. All humans currently on the planet are descended from much smaller group of humans alive around 3500 years ago. This is not long enough ago for much evolution to happen except in a few minor but important areas like ability to digest milk as an adult and some degree of innate protection against the black plague. Therefore, characteristics such as high IQ and "more than enough azzholery" are equidistributed around the globe.

You have, I think, a net worth of around $500,000. Kiyosaki has a rumored net worth of around $80,000,000. In order for you to achieve his net worth by age 72 through investment alone, you would have to earn an annual return that is slightly north of 34.75 %. I have taught many 4 year old children who are recent refugees from places like Syria, including some who are quite intelligent and also capable of fighting off others who try to confiscate Lego or cookie. Worldwide youth literacy is now at 91% level, which is probably better than in many urban neighborhood schools in the U.S. and should correlate fairly well with financial literacy. If a 4 year old refugee child invests 12 cents, and also earns 34.75% annual return rate, that 12 cents will be $80,000,000 by the time he is 72. But, a 4 year old who is in possession of all the internal assets shared by you and Kiyosaki, obviously doesn't even need that initial 12 cents to be ahead in this theoretical game, because his relative youthful vigor would easily be valued at vast multiples.

Of course, this model does not hold true, because 34.75% return rate is highly unlikely. and neither you or the 4 year old refugee child will be able to make your way to Kiyosaki status through less exponential mode of accumulation available through mechanism of $/ hour of hard-work *hours of life vigor remaining. Doesn't matter whether you periodically deposit $50,000 or EVEN if he periodically deposits $50000, at 4% neither of you are going to beat Kiyosaki. Therefore, the only likely options are A) use high IQ to innovate and/or B) use innate azzholery to dominate. Domination can take a variety of forms beyond direct snatching of Legos or cookies. For instance, dumping shit downstream is simply large scale equivalent of giving some poor kid a swirly. Game on! Who will win and how?

Jason

Re: ERE with massive spending

Post by Jason »

Saul Bellow once took a lot of heat for asking "Who is the Tolstoy of the Zulus?" Nonetheless, I feel compelled to ask "What is the Renaissance Man Quadrant of North Korea?"

RK and I are degredations within the same system. Anyone from outside the system would probably not even recognize the differences between us upon first blush and if they did figure it out, I don't think they would care all that much. They would probably just call us both "rich dads" with one dad being "richer." And I can always lease a Maserati for a weekend to confuse them with appearances.

Yes, mathematics transcends geographical boundaries. But is there a Fidelity Investments office in Syria? Is Jacob's book available in Damascus (Honest question). But that's besides the point. It surprises me that you are reducing this entire endeavor to math and net worth. I thought it was more complex than that, despite it not being the case for people like me. I just want a stash big enough so I don't have to grow my own food.

But the bottom line is, you have made my point. RK just has a higher net worth than me. And Bill Gates has higher net worth than RK. But unless you think owning a golden tower in the middle of NYC with endless access to material possession is in fact quality, what is the actual qualitative difference? Typing this post in an even more luxurious chair? Someone bringing me my coffee instead of me having to walk to another room to get it? I'm a grade A certified douche but even I reflect upon that as a distinction without a qualitative difference. However, if I was typing this in a chair, having fetched my own coffee AND worrying about a missile flying into my window, AND the government restriction my ability to procreate, AND my family disappearing without a trace, and me not being able to access this website in the first place to talk about whatever comes into my mind, well, that, to me, is a distinction with a qualitative difference. And a huge one in that. To the extent that I would consider it an entirely different system, one in which permaculture and a house voluntarily built out of mud and straw could not transform into the one I have (fortunately) found myself in.

Locked