May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

[George the original one]

Long term success with May-December relationships is generally not likely. The one positive example on the forum is Moonbeam viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8325.

Basically, for any more than a 10-yr gap in age, being the younger person in the relationship, you need to be asking yourself how well you will enjoy becoming a caretaker at the age you will be acting out a mid-life crisis. If a caretaker role does not seem so bad, are you willing to be potentially held back in your activities because your older partner isn't as physically active?

[C40]

[Replying to "Be present with her"}

Not necessary. Familiarity breeds contempt. My girl thinks she has been with me for 3 years and 4 months but I have only 'been present with her' for 7 days during that time period. That's giving her a day for every 6 months.

Wow. Why have you only been 'present' with her that little bit?

(for the sake of conversational clarity - let me make sure we're talking about the same thing. By "present". I(/we?) mean, generally, a type of mindfulness - having four focus/mind/attention on whatever is happening with you and her in that moment. Could include:
- Having a good conversation - listening well and seeking to understand and learn. (and the subject of conversation could by anything at all - doesn't have to be some serious 'relationship talk')
- Having nice quiet moments together and just relaxing (without having and specific interaction, though still enjoying one-another's company)
- Sex and other physical touch - while enjoying the moment, being perceptive of their responses and your subesquent actions, etc.

[fiby41]

. Why have you only been 'present' with her that little bit?

I took being present to mean being physically available for a continuous stretch of ~24 hours to count for a day.
2 years of that period she was in another city for her masters and 4 months and one week of it, I was in another country.

[C40]

I think @Jenny has a good point. There are certain 'hot button' subjects that illicit more aggressive/extreme responses, or that illicit responses coming from having assumed/extrapolated more than just what is written. There is a difference between thinking "wow, this guy got this specific thing wrong" and "wow, something is really off with this guy"

My own internal thoughts certainly included some in the latter category. If the subject had been something 'small' like bicycle repair or cooking Indian cuisine, my/our thoughts seem to be way less likely to fall in the later category ("something wrong with that guy").

So, I wonder. Why is that? Are we thinking that on subjects that:
- Are big important life skills that everyone should have and thus it's a much bigger problem than not being able to make curry?
- We have personal trauma or annoyances related to and get triggered
- We have struggled with ourselves / grown through / just witnessed too much and are eager to respond/help?
- It is a popular thing to be offended about these days? (others: Trump/politics, pollution, bias/discrimination based on race, gender, sexual orientation)

And, I wonder, is it worth out time to try helping? How do you identify the difference between someone who has strong convictions and will be stuck in them vs. and someone who is ready to learn/improve/grow? I started typing up some more assertive responses and then deleted them - a couple times - thinking "ahhh, it's not worth it"/I don't want to get involved/it's not worth my time. To some extent, even if the person is not open to change - it is of course good to advise/challenge here in order to support good conversations in the forum and keep it from turning too [....]


In the 'real world', this last question is easier for me to sort out. If one of my friends/acquaintances is doing something I think is 'off', I have an idea of whether they are open to learning/changing/being challenged/advised. (one example of this recently was when my friend challenged me for referring to my newphew - who was born in Ethiopia and adopted by my American cousin - as "African American" (In a situation where that (maybe) had some relevance - his dancing skills/talent.

The short version is:
Him - you shouldn't call him African-American!
Me - He is literally African-American! He was born in Africa and he now lives in and is a U.S. citizen
Him - A.A. means, specifically, a black(likely of African descent) person who does not know what countries their relatives/ancestors are from because of them being slaves here. Since he knows he's Ethiopian, he's not an African-American.

(I don't entirely agree with him because of how often A.A. is used to simply mean black, but it was a good point and now it's something I'm aware of - and I had not been aware of the connotation before)

[C40]

I took being present to mean being physically available for a continuous stretch of ~24 hours to count for a day.
2 years of that period she was in another city for her masters and 4 months and one week of it, I was in another country.

Ahh, I see.

Many of these terms for both relationships and ~mindfulness (that word included) are vague and open to misunderstanding unless all people using them understand the specific definition being used by others in the conversation. Me/we were using a certain figurative meaning, and you a literal meaning.

[Peanut]

@c40: interesting about your nephew and I don’t think you are wrong. If he didn’t grow up in Ethiopia it’s not going to be a big part of his identity, so Ethiopian-American seems to be overstating. African-American is also construed as a more polite way to say ‘black.’ And some African-Americans do know where some of their ancestors are from, anyway. Similarly a baby who was adopted from China is going to get called Asian-American and it’s accurate enough. Both are umbrella terms for different personal and geographic histories.

[fiby41]

As it pertains to OPs situation, here is my understanding of LDRs:
1 LDRs only work if all four participants are happy
2 LDRs is like having imaginary friends
3 I do not believe in LDRs

"I have had a relationship for six years. I f anything that moves. She knows I do it and she stays with me anyway."
~Tate, 4 times MMA champion.

[fiby41]

but I've yet to see a PUA advancing to an actual relationship

Todd Valentine, mechanical engineer, has been married and has a baby on the way.
The same people who said ERE doesn't work because jacob got a job in 2011 must've been the ones who said PUA doesn't work because author of the Mystery Method is now a father.
Neil Strauss, the NYT reporter who apprenticed under Mystery is married to someone who is about half a feet taller than him. He is bald and coauthored Game.
Nick Krauser, was 40 and stuck in a boring accountant job when his wife divorced him. He is bald, has a potbelly and married to a Ukrainian half his age using the the London Daygame Model he developed.

[C40]

Neil Strauss wasn't really a PUA - he was role-playing to write a book. It doesn't invalidate your points though, and I was a bit surprised to see Jacob write that.

I think his point (as I interpret) is still valid: that PUA techniques (particularly when goin 'full-on PUA' style) - while being effective in picking up women for sex (often, it could be said, women who are insecure/vulnerable/bored/or just also want sex, of course) are not a good way to start LTRs as an adult.

And if I'm recalling correctly, Strauss wrote/speaks about that himself (?)

[Edit - I am quite out of the loop on PUA stuff, and my impression is from older-school tactics of things like peacocking, 'negging', just approaching 50 women on a night out/etc. A quick google of that 'London Daygame' seems to be to be a pretty normal/standard way of meeting people. Has most PUA material evolved away from those old gimmicks/prey/vulturing techniques and towards actually helping inexperienced people learn how to be social in healthy and positive ways?]

[jacob]

I think the reason for the shock or outrage among those who are yet to have "seen it all" comes from judging the someone misinformed rather than uninformed, the latter which commands more tolerance.

Prejudice and stereotyping definitely is a thing. There are certain words that one should avoid in mixed company lest one be associated with certain groups of ill repute. I like to use the netiquette because it's convenient but it also holds for real life. First and foremost, the key is to make yourself look good and to do that you also have to know where you are. Reputation also plays a role!

It's my absolute strong impression based on having seen it play out a few times:
1) Guys getting their advice from MGTOW, redpill, pua, incel, etc. or any other "young men's dating/growing-up advice on the internet" show a strong correlation with having relationship problems either being unable to sustain one or establish one in the first place. Correlation is not causation, so it's not clear whether these strategies attract people who are already failing for other reasons or whether adopting these methods are the source of the failure.

Either way, it's also been observed that...

2) These groups tend to repel most members of the target group. Whether that's because there's some kind of war going on with N-wave feminism, etc. on the other side is actually irrelevant, because insofar one seeks to attract, one should not repel. Makes sense? Frankly, my guess the reason that all these "techniques" are so off-putting is because how they objectify the person on the receiving end.

You can spot the objectification by the choice of wording... attracting a mate, women, female, tall, fertile, much younger, ... etc. ... Which sounds very much like a 16 year old choosing stats for a D&D character.

I wrote another post some time ago about how humans evolve from this initial (and typically unsuccessful) stage (Kegan2) where they set criteria for other people picking and choosing ... to a stage where they look at how to become attractive to other people in the hopes of getting chosen (Kegan3) ... and hopefully onto a stage where the relationship is more than a mutual selection of criteria (Kegan4+), but I can't find it.

Objectifying or using objectifying language just doesn't play great. It makes one sound like Genghis Kahn looking for victims. In particular, my issues with game type stuff is that while it deals with the second stage, it's largely manipulative and based on false/cheap signalling. This makes it very hard to get to stage 3 which is where actual long term relationships exist.

The actionable solution to the OP was to switch from the so-called "man of letters"-language to the modern language. Insofar the thinking is switched to a modern form too where the other is seen as a person who looks back as well, there's the foundation for entering a healthy long term relationship.

[Mister Imperceptible]

Well, if we are talking about Deep Adaption and the eventual reduction of the world’s population to just a few hundred million, you better believe I am looking to max out the stats of my descendants.

I am sure all of the polite people making themselves look good online will do well during the cataclysm.

[Fish]

@jacob - This is the post you were referring to: viewtopic.php?p=177670#p177670

[Edit to remove non-productive comments]

[Mister Imperceptible]

Jason mentioned something above regarding “I won’t name it.” I went to Sunday School for 10 years. Without compulsion. I received the Catholic sacrament of Confirmation. Look at the future. Who here is being honest with themselves? Who here is acknowledging what they know deep down, but will not name it? Who here is a nihilist? Who here truly wishes to live, and to go on living?

why struggle

why not

I did not ask to be born. I was thrown into this world. I cannot even choose to leave, without hurting those who would miss me.

You can cringe and boycott all you want. There is no alternative.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lJZTgynPGT8

[Jason]

Because of my immense respect for JLF and his commitment to civility, I will not launch further grenades into this battlefield. But suffice it to say, you misinterpret "I will not name it."

In the spirit of nudging, I would suggest you read this book:

https://www.amazon.com/At-Existentialis ... 1536617474

It shows a vibrancy and engagement between the existentialist philosophers. Their love of words, their work ethic, their communion, their intellectual flexibility, their attempt at truly creating an experiential philosophy, their embrace of being public intellectuals. For lack of better word, they had fun. Sartre was essentially a rock star who banged everything not nailed down to the floor and excused Little Satre from even a modicum of intellectual rigor. Yes, Heidegger was a miserable little bench sitting shit, but there's one in every crowd. My point is, they lived full lives. Their was a Rat Pack dimension to them with Simon de Beauvioir being the Shirley Mclaine and Merleau-Ponty being their Dean Martin. And like Dean Martin, just because someone walks around with a cocktail glass, doesn't mean there is liquor in it. Don't believe every existentialist treatise you read.

When I turned 21, my girlfriend at the time said "Well, you can no longer believe in rock lyrics." It hurt, but she was right. I think if she was there when I turned 31, I imagine she would have said the same thing about Nietzche.

[Mister Imperceptible]

I appreciate the recommendation and will look into it.

Let it be known that everything I do is out of self-defense, even the philosophy I live my life by.

I hope everyone understands my being acerbic is self-defense as the crowd takes turns beating me with a bar of soap Full Metal Jacket style.

[Jason]

There is another scenario in which you don't get "beat" with the bar of soap, you get "beat" because of the bar of the soap. And in that instance, you are the one who keeps dropping it. I believe someone navigating your circles would be familiar with this phenomenon.

[Mister Imperceptible]

I haven’t shied away from conflict in pursuit of truth. We are learning.

[jennypenny]

I'm not sure that 'conflict' leads to learning. I know I get hung up on language, but framing these discussions that way might land you in the I-ask-lots-of-questions-but-dismiss-everyone's-answers category on the forum, which would impede learning and erode the quality of the responses you get.

I'm also not only talking about right vs. wrong debates. If you find yourself thinking 'that might be true for most people/everyone else but not for me', you're fooling yourself unless you have a TON of empirical data to back up your position (which is rare).

[suomalainen]

If I may*, this thread has certainly had its moments, but the takeaway for me is this: you opened this thread with a wild tale (from the persepective of a disiniterested observer) and a question that basically is “am I being impatient?” You included vivid details of your beau, your attitude towards her, your thought process both of the present as well as the (far) future. Those details evoked reactions, some polite and helpful and others not, but all generally of the “hit the brakes, man” flavor. And as you and jp say, you became (understandably) defensive and combative.

But...you asked the question. You got feedback you didn’t like and confirmation bias kicked in. That’s all fine and normal, but if you didn’t really want honest feedback, you should have owned that. You can still own it. I posted about a relationship...conundrum...in my journal, but wasn’t looking for advice. I got shit on too anyway, but [shrugs] internet.

As to your question: yes you are being impatient. I can not identify the causes of that, although the mindset/thought process you detailed indicates that perhaps you are immature in your social relationships. That is hard feedback to hear. But you have received it. It’s up to you to decide whether you can dismiss it (and by what rationalizations) or whether THIS MUCH feedback of a consistent nature is worth looking at more deeply.

My advice to you (again, see *) is to slow down, be yourself, see this woman for what she IS and not for whatever future fantasies you’re projecting on her, stay present, and see what happens. She’s not a trophy, or a womb. Focus on what’s happening NOW between you - how you enjoy her thoughts and the connection you’re building. Maybe it blossoms, maybe it doesn’t, but you can stay present and enjoy it now for what it is.

Good luck.

* seeing as my own dysfunction in the area of romantic relationships (and life?) is well-documented, feel free to ignore me.

[fiby41]

* seeing as my own dysfunction in the area of romantic relationships (and life?) is well-documented, feel free to ignore me.

This is wo/men sharing notes. You don't have to have all the solutions for your observations to be valuable.