Time spent with Friends/Family

[jacob]

Well, I recently paid $40 for a more approachable sense of fashion, but otherwise no. Too busy cutting dovetails

[classical_Liberal]

Although I can certainly see how it could appear charisma based on my previous description. I tend to think of charisma is a sub-set of social skills. So it is part of the whole, but not the only thing involved.

[7Wannabe5]

I think I would be somewhat bi-polar on the Charisma scale, because I am socially experimental. So, it's kind of like I simultaneously have "trouble thinking of others as people" while being "subject of favorable talk." For instance, when I was the hiring manager for a large book and music store, it became a running joke that I hired new staff on the basis of being date-able for the current staff. Everybody was sleeping with somebody else at that store, which if you think about it is probably a good thing for business when you aren't able to pay very much.

[7Wannabe5]

Anyways, I think the proposed Social Wheaton Charts above are kind of Sunday School boring. All you really need to do to be popular with most people is help them get well fed or well f*cked. Small talk just serves as sort of "I bear no weapon" obligatory handshake.

[jennypenny]

I think maybe part of the disagreements in the thread are because of terminology. What it boils down to (for people like EREs) is how much social interaction is required to maintain a useful level of social capital and acceptance. Developing more social skill is a good approach, but that doesn't directly translate into a higher social standing and IMO is kind of a nebulous goal at best.

What I was trying to say in my previous post is that you should examine exactly what you're trying to accomplish with your social interactions so you have very specific goals ... like keeping close friends and family happy, feeling a part of your neighborhood, or being a social enough parent that you don't harm your child's social standing. Once you do that, you can try to find ways that accomplish the specific goal without having to magically overcome your 'I' or raise your charisma score.

I'm a total zero in the charisma category which is why I try to find other ways to be seen as useful (kitchen help/cooking) or interesting enough (wine angle/bringing latest books I've read to hand out) to warrant inclusion in the social circle I'm targeting. You can also buy your way into groups by being the neighbor/coworker who always buys lots of girl scout cookies or donates 20 turkeys to the annual thanksgiving food collection. Or you can grow extra tomato plant seedlings every spring to give away.

I don't think the problem is necessarily about becoming a different person. I think it's about specifically identifying your social goals and figuring out specific ways to maintain status in each group that don't drive you mad or require too much effort. Figure out a way to make your own talents (gardening, cooking, photography) valuable to the group and in a way that's not too taxing to your 'I' or your wallet.


edited to add: It took me a while, but I figured out that I was felt much less awkward/anxious at outdoor parties compared to indoor ones. I'm not sure why -- not so confined, easier to escape to the kitchen, more casual dress code, can usually get by playing horseshoes or bocce, whatever. Once I recognized that, I tried to attend more outdoor events and skip the indoor ones. Like I said, it's just a puzzle to figure out.

[7Wannabe5]

or being a social enough parent that you don't harm your child's social standing.

The worst. I am so happy my years of having to chat with the other ballet moms (AKA the affluent brittle) are over. Now that I think about it, this is probably because my simple rule of thumb didn't work with those who have no interest in food or sex.

[daylen]

@7W5 ENTP gives INTP food for thought. INTP writes dry academic/religious text. Some other type reduces the text into spoonfuls with color. Society teaches/worships the colorful spoonfuls. Meanwhile, another INTP expands onto the original text repeating the pattern.

[7Wannabe5]

@daylen:

Not very diplomatic of me, eh? I am chuckling at your use of embodied language.

I'm not a huge fan of Maslow, because too simplistic and rigid. But, one could describe Jacob as being very high functioning in social realm, because he attempts to directly help other people self-actualize. Whereas, those "Efficiency" guys make their people do like 10X more work just to get laid (although the subtext reveals core romantic motivation.)

[Jin+Guice]

Social skill and extroversion are not the same thing. Have you ever had to talk to a non-socially-skilled extrovert? It's like being murdered, but worse, because it never fucking ends.

I think social skill corresponds to being able to get out of conversations as much as get into them. It also corresponds to directing them. Social skill does not mean being popular. Reading body language is an element. Reading "rooms" (social situations) and individuals is an element. Charisma is an element. Being able to "connect with anyone" is an element. Ideally, you should be able to connect with them quickly and then stop talking to them (if you want to get away) while leaving them feeling good. This requires empathy and listening skills.

Social skill is about getting what you want from other people. If you're slick, you will be able to do this in the short run easily. In the long run people will realize you're slick and try to avoid/ out-slick you. You don't really get what you want from other people without giving back.



In response to the OP, this would mean something like what @JP suggested. If it's a relationship you care about and/ or brings you value, it's important to maintain it. Knowing how to maintain the relationship requires knowing if and why the other person wanted you to come and what they would except as an excuse and appreciate in your absence. That's social skill.

I do think social anxiety is something you can overcome, though I don't think it's necessary to overcome it to improve social skills. Personally, I don't have social anxiety (though I have plenty of other forms), but I've seen friends who've claimed to have extreme social anxiety overcome it. It seems like it does take a certain level of placing yourself in uncomfortable situations, which is probably a good idea from a personal growth standpoint anyway. Not liking interactions with more than 2 other people and being stressed out by them are two different things.

[daylen]

Social skill and extroversion are not the same thing.

Agreed. The distinction that makes the most sense in my mind is that extroversion has to do with action (Se, Ne) or interfacing (Fe, Te)[+] and that social skill has to do with the utilization of various circuits in the minds of others during socialization.

In my chart above, I was thinking about how much control an agent could potentially have in a social situation given their awareness of the respective circuits in the minds of the participants. By this criteria, charisma may overlap to some extent but it is not equivilant.

For instance, level 6 would use their understanding of the serotonin circuits to influence the outcome of a particular social engagement. They would recognize how others view reputation and use that information to their advantage. Perhaps by honoring a veteran or something to gain their respect before asking a favor.

[+] As opposed to knowledge (Si, Ni) or deliberation (Ti, Fi).

[BookLoverL]

I agree, there's a big difference between introversion and poor social skills, IMO. An introvert with good social skills might only make it to a couple of social occasions a month, but when they're at those occasions, they'll kill it, and everybody will be glad they came. An extrovert with poor social skills will always be trying to be social, but all their social interactions would be falling short in a way they didn't really understand, and leaving them feeling unsatisfied/excluded somehow.

Even if you're a strong introvert, I think it's good to get to at least around 10-11 on that charisma skill chart above if you can, just so that when you DO need to interact with someone for whatever reason you're not in great difficulty. You don't have to go around USING the social skills you gained all the time unless you want to.

[7Wannabe5]

In my chart above, I was thinking about how much control an agent could potentially have in a social situation given their awareness of the respective circuits in the minds of the participants. By this criteria, charisma may overlap to some extent but it is not equivilant.

Okay, gotcha now. I didn't pick up on this sort of thing until I was well into my 30s. Don't forget about vasopressin.

https://www.intechopen.com/books/neuroe ... asopressin