$$$ for your firearms

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
Campitor
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Campitor »

Interesting site about Chicago's gun violence: https://heyjackass.com/category/chicago-crime-2019/

Jason

Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Jason »

FIRE 2018 wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:43 am
A male wearing camouflage clothing with loaded tactical weapons and multiple rounds walked into Wal Mart in Missouri recently and wanted to see if anyone noticed him?
That's just dumb. If he had walked into a Target, he could have said he was confused about the type of business.

suomalainen
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by suomalainen »

Riggerjack wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:21 am
Those in very populated areas, where police response is rapid, tend to be comfortable abdicating the responsibility for their physical safety to a professional police force (though I do find it odd that those same people are so comfortable hating those same professionals...).
You write pejoratively about those who may want/need police while objecting to police overreach. How is this any different than your objection to WA state "inspector" overreach? Is it okay to "hate" on overreaching government officials you personally don't want or need, but not okay to "hate" on government officials you do want or need? Even if you disagree with a SJW on the role of the state on the front end, I don't see any difference between the two of you on the back end. Individuals holding government office and conducting governmental business should be held accountable when breaching professional standards - be they "useful police" or "useless bureaucrats".

Campitor
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Campitor »

suomalainen wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:48 am
You write pejoratively about those who may want/need police while objecting to police overreach. How is this any different than your objection to WA state "inspector" overreach? Is it okay to "hate" on overreaching government officials you personally don't want or need, but not okay to "hate" on government officials you do want or need?
I'm not speaking for Rigger but for myself. We're being asked to abdicate our safety to the state by the very same people who vigorously protest the abuse done by police. There is a deep intellectual inconsistency in believing in the virtue of government while decrying government abuses that involve allegations of murdering innocent civilians.

I don't see any inconsistency in Rigger's statement. He's not saying "it's not okay to hate on cops" while he "hates on states inspectors." He's saying he doesn't want his rights usurped by either hence his proclivity towards gun possession and not wanting nosy inspectors on his property. At least that is my opinion of his statement.

suomalainen
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by suomalainen »

I'm not really interested in gun debate politics. Without a constitutional amendment, I doubt very much anyone is "being asked to abdicate our safety to the state" if, to you, having a gun = safety. As far as I'm aware, the gun control debate is currently about limits within the 2nd amendment, not for a constitutional amendment revoking the 2nd amendment.

And where is there intellectual inconsistency in "believing in the virtue of government" (as a system) while, and let me paraphrase you while being more accurate and clear - "decrying the abuses perpetrated under the guise and cloak of governmental authority." Speaking for myself, and not as a spokesperson for whatever "very same people" you are referring to, I generally trust "the police" in the same way that I generally trust "people", but individual police officers and individual persons in individual circumstances could act unprofessionally or even criminally. What is wrong with holding people accountable when they abuse their governmental office?

Campitor
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Campitor »

suomalainen wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:03 pm
I'm not really interested in gun debate politics. Without a constitutional amendment, I doubt very much anyone is "being asked to abdicate our safety to the state" if, to you, having a gun = safety. As far as I'm aware, the gun control debate is currently about limits within the 2nd amendment, not for a constitutional amendment revoking the 2nd amendment.
There have been instances of state agencies trying to restrict guns so excessively it's a close suspension of the 2nd amendment. It was only via a SCOTUS decision that the 2nd amendment was upheld and these excessively restrictive guns laws overturned.

And having a gun doesn't automatically impart safety anymore than an extinguisher prevents the total incineration of a domicile. But it's nice to have either should circumstances require their use to prevent an even greater tragedy.

And where is there intellectual inconsistency in "believing in the virtue of government" (as a system) while, and let me paraphrase you while being more accurate and clear - "decrying the abuses perpetrated under the guise and cloak of governmental authority." Speaking for myself, and not as a spokesperson for whatever "very same people" you are referring to, I generally trust "the police" in the same way that I generally trust "people", but individual police officers and individual persons in individual circumstances could act unprofessionally or even criminally. What is wrong with holding people accountable when they abuse their governmental office?
There's nothing wrong with holding people accountable for abusing their government office. But should a morally decrepit person, police or civilian, decide to use criminally inspired deadly force, it would be beneficial to have the means to repel or prevent it.

I generally trust police myself. I have friends who are homicide detectives as well as regular cops. They tell me it's better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun but not have it. They all believe that responsible gun ownership is a good thing.

The intellectual inconsistency I was talking about is in regards to persons who believe the police to be a completely corrupt, racist, and murderous institution but yet still advocate for the removal of 2nd amendment privileges because the government is the perfect entity to protect us. I should have made this clear - sorry I did not. Do you believe the police are completely corrupt and murderous? If you don't then you can safely believe you're not who I'm talking about in regards to intellectual inconsistency.

suomalainen
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by suomalainen »

Yeah, like I said, I'm not really interested in gun politics. For my part, I'm on @riggerjack's side when he suggested that de-escalation / avoidance is a better strategy. But, you know, I wish you and your guns luck in any armed standoff. Let us know how it goes.

My point was more about @riggerjack's mocking, without a hint of irony, in one post SJW's who complain about excessive use of force (including deadly force) by bad-apple cops while, not 10 posts later, suggesting he needed a gun (or the culture of gun ownership) to protect himself from over-enthusiastic "inspectors". I'm not sure what an "inspector" is, but I can imagine a conversation that goes like this:

SJW / Mother of dead brown son: "The police that shot my brown son said he was scared of my brown son and thought the wallet my son had in his hand was a gun, so he shot him dead."

Gun-nut or whatever / guy whose rights have been hampered by "over-regulation": "You think YOU'VE got problems?! You should see this health inspector that tries to pull these bullshit 'surprise' inspections on my dairy farm!"

Which one is the snowflake, exactly?

FIRE 2018
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by FIRE 2018 »

In Florida and in a number of states, it's "Stand your ground" law. Come at me with aggression and I will defend myself.

Campitor
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Campitor »

suomalainen wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:51 am
Yeah, like I said, I'm not really interested in gun politics. For my part, I'm on @riggerjack's side when he suggested that de-escalation / avoidance is a better strategy. But, you know, I wish you and your guns luck in any armed standoff. Let us know how it goes.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9730&p=164600&hilit=fubar#p164600

In the above link, I've stated that my personal preference for foregoing gun ownership and the reasons behind it. But I understand why my choices wouldn't be universally acceptable to persons who may live in very different circumstances. And I'm not interested in armed standoffs but sometimes there are circumstances where fleeing or hiding is impossible and aggression in self defense is the only choice.
My point was more about @riggerjack's mocking, without a hint of irony, in one post SJW's who complain about excessive use of force (including deadly force) by bad-apple cops while, not 10 posts later, suggesting he needed a gun (or the culture of gun ownership) to protect himself from over-enthusiastic "inspectors". I'm not sure what an "inspector" is, but I can imagine a conversation that goes like this:

SJW / Mother of dead brown son: "The police that shot my brown son said he was scared of my brown son and thought the wallet my son had in his hand was a gun, so he shot him dead."

Gun-nut or whatever / guy whose rights have been hampered by "over-regulation": "You think YOU'VE got problems?! You should see this health inspector that tries to pull these bullshit 'surprise' inspections on my dairy farm!"

Which one is the snowflake, exactly?
I would regard neither as a snowflake. A dead son killed by excessive state force is certainly worthy of moral indignation and outrage. And it's also deeply indignant for the state to abuse its power by levying excessive fines which force homeowners out of their residences, deprive persons of their livelihood, or force individuals into bankruptcy.

SCOTUS recognizes that states can and do abuse their powers for levying fines hence their recent decisions to curtail it. What is intellectually inconsistent is to decry the abuse of state in unjustified homicide while downplaying the effects of excessive state regulations that lead to loss of income or home; regulations which are abusive and in direct contradiction to government's role of ensuring the public good. And pivotal in this abuse are the state inspectors who are knowingly complicit in this governmental abuse.

https://pacificlegal.org/supreme-court- ... ive-fines/ :

Unfortunately, as we explained in our amicus brief, despite the historical protection, many state governments today impose outrageous fines, amounting to tens of thousands of dollars, for small offenses—with the burden frequently falling on citizens who can least afford to pay. Consider the following examples:

One Missouri city fined a homeowner $180,000 for choosing to plant flowers instead of grass.
A Florida homeowner faced municipal fines of $58,000 for failing to register a burglar alarm with a local bureaucrat.
PLF clients faced fines of $100 per day—exceeding $10,000 in just a short time—for their home’s Van Gogh style mural
In California, PLF clients Henny and Warren Lent face over $4 million in fines for blocking an unusable public access easement.
Today’s Supreme Court decision is an important step toward ending the kind of fines presently imposed for even non-criminal offenses by many states. All Americans, especially our friends at Institute for Justice who fought this battle, should be proud.

Riggerjack
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Riggerjack »

My point was more about @riggerjack's mocking, without a hint of irony, in one post SJW's who complain about excessive use of force (including deadly force) by bad-apple cops while, not 10 posts later, suggesting he needed a gun (or the culture of gun ownership) to protect himself from over-enthusiastic "inspectors".
:lol: would a hint have helped?

For what it's worth, I like SJWs (at a distance, but I like most people better at a distance). They are loud, aggressive, and clueless, as they should be at that age.

I like their equally loud, aggressive and clueless counterparts among the right, for the same reasons, also at a distance.

Maybe factor that in, when you read between the lines of my posts. Odds are good we disagree on nearly everything, but I don't disagree in the way you seem most comfortable arguing against.

suomalainen
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by suomalainen »

Meh, I was making a very narrow point only tangentially related to this thread's topic, which nobody seems to get, so either I must not be clear or the topic is too loaded for people to see beyond it or both. In any event, I don't have any real opinions on this topic, so the chance for disagreement is quite low.

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jennypenny
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by jennypenny »

@Suo—I got your point. It actually makes sense to me that the people who rely on and interact with ‘the system’ the most would also demand more accountability because they feel its flaws more acutely.

I’ll let the gun argument lie since I don’t think rules that work in one area/culture necessarily make sense in another.

subgard
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by subgard »

The second amendment is already completely and utterly infringed. To the point of it being nonsensical. "The right to bear arms" is the right to possess military weapons. Not hunting tools. Weapons for destroying human beings and their property. With a few exceptions on the very low end of the scale (semiautomatic small caliber fire-arms), these weapons are almost completely banned from the private citizenry.

The rights of speech, press, and assemblage are much more important for preserving a free society.

If you're an oppressed minority, and the rest of the populace doesn't care about you, you're absolutely screwed, no matter what weaponry you possess.

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GandK
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by GandK »

I wish there were more, and easier, $$$ for gun programs. When you inherit multiple unregistered firearms from your relatives, but you don't run in the gun community, know no dealers, and are unfamiliar with your state/local carrying and transportation laws, unloading unwanted firearms is a giant pain in the ass. Where I live, you can't (legally) just put them in the car and drive them to a dealer for the dealer to buy, because you have no permit to carry/transport them. You can't (legally) just sell them online to whomever can provide appropriate documentation (whatever that may be) either, because you're not a dealer, and there are state line laws regarding guns. You basically can't sell them at all (legally) without knowing people. But it's still OK to gift them, undocumented, to somebody else... whose bright idea was this.

We eventually got them sold, but if my husband didn't work in the law enforcement community with people who could help us jump through all the hoops, I'm sure we would have broken some law, somewhere, in just trying to get rid of our unwanted firearms. Anyone less conscientious certainly would.

No matter where we all stand on the US 2nd amendment, Americans who end up with guns they don't want should have a simple way to unload them to a responsible person/authority, that doesn't potentially make a criminal out of them. (Thanks again for the advice @ffj.)

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Sclass
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Sclass »

GandK wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:44 am
I wish there were more, and easier, $$$ for gun programs. When you inherit multiple unregistered firearms from your relatives, but you don't run in the gun community, know no dealers, and are unfamiliar with your state/local carrying and transportation laws, unloading unwanted firearms is a giant pain in the ass.
I am so there right now. I am the guardian of three generations of hunting arms. I am dreading the liquidation.

With every passing year I lose interest in the hobby. We no longer own hunting property. We just own memories. Grandpa’s shotguns. Dad’s shotguns, deer rifles and revolvers. I sit around in my father’s “gun room” trying not to stir up too much dust. Reloading equipment with lead #9 shot still in the hoppers bolted to the table. Old pelts from what i believe are extinct animals. :roll:

Realistically I need to sell off the collection. The younger members of the family are less interested than me. My BIL has a similar issue. Three generations of guns in his home. Sister hates it and when I mentioned dad’s toys she said “no no no!” At our recent reunion.

A cousin just sold his family’s collection of 100 or so guns. It was a mess. Brokers. Auctions. Legal stuff. I’ll ask his advice on the local ins and outs of doing this. California...yay.

In the meantime I have to take care of this stuff. It isn’t like dad’s *&$#ing porn collection that I can just put out on the curb. Like porn everyone has their particular taste in guns. Our family collection doesn’t turn me on. It’s grandpa and dad’s tastes foisted off on me. One man’s guns aren’t another man’s guns like the 80s porn tapes. I guess I should put the Betamax out there with the tapes... :lol:

I feel my dad’s influence when I am expected to cherish this stuff. I feel guilty that I don’t want it. Part of me wants it to get outlawed so I’m forced to hand it in. I’m deeply conflicted.

Riggerjack
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Riggerjack »

Well, the first thing I would recommend is to ask around the family, to see if anyone else wants to have a material link to past generations. I know plenty of people still carrying a grudge against the family member who sold off an heirloom, and that kind of drama is best avoided...

As a general rule, firearms and vehicles are only a problem if ammunition is also present. Unload them, put them in the trunk, wrapped in a blanket, go to a good sized gun shop that sells on consignment, and let them deal with it. Bring empty magazines, and any other incidentals like cases, tools or documents.

Reloading equipment, ammo, and supplies can just be listed on Craigslist.

One can look up a value range by searching GunBroker.com. remember that firearms have high transaction costs (buyer's FFL fee, seller's FFL fee, postage). But a consignment shop will charge a percentage.

FFLs (Federal Firearms Licencee) are subject to regular inspections by a local BATFE agent and will get all the paperwork straight, and make sure you are covered, legally. That's the business they are in, and they aren't going to jeopardize it for some used guns.


California is a special case, so I would go speak to the guy behind the counter at my local gun shop, beforehand. He or she will clear up local rules. Bring a list of makes/models (usually stamped into the barrel and/or receiver.) Or just use your phone to take pics.

Old hunting guns tend to go to collectors, who tend to hoard them in gun safes. Just, I expect, where someone who has guns, and doesn't want guns, would want the old guns to go.

Oddly, it's the pelts/furs/skins that could get you in trouble. Having possession of the parts of endangered species can be a real problem. Bald eagle feathers are worth a $5k fine and jail time, each. I am not aware of any process to legally dispose of these items. I remember one of our recent expresidents pardoned someone along these lines on the way out of the WH, but I don't remember which one, probably Clinton.

Campitor
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Campitor »

My local police station will take possession of any unwanted firearms and destroy them or give them to police who want them. Some paperwork required. I’m surprised that isn’t an option for some of you.

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Sclass
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Sclass »

Thanks FFJ. Not quite there yet.

Gilberto de Piento
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Gilberto de Piento »

Someone I know that came into some guns sold them to either Cabela's or Gander Mountain, I can't remember which. The company was very easy to work with and the person was happy with the deal. They are big companies so I think it is safe to assume they are going to follow the relevant laws.

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