extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

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monkeymanwasd123
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extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 »

i mainly want to focus on the keto diet and the carnivore diet but im also curious to hear what people have to say about how little we can get a vegan keto diet for.
calculation for carnivore diet:
• beef per hectare 1,800 kg ---> 3500kg
• Cost of production fell from $1.10 per kg beef to $0.40 per kg
• Return on assets managed rose from average of 2% before introduction of new grazing system
to 7.5%
(365x4)1.10=1606/12=133.83 per month (food)

note: this is on a large scale ranch so these numbers would likely turn to man hours instead of dollars

... ok im 70% sure my math is wrong so ill let yall have a field day :)

source:
https://www.savory.global/wp-content/up ... erview.pdf

7Wannabe5
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I think the important thing to notice is that with intelligent, holistic (or systems based) management, all classes of life must be considered in stewardship and design, no matter which species are meant for consumption by humans. Since humans are large mammals, and the population of humans is at all time extreme high, favoring other large mammals (even herbivores) in the mix may not result in best-case short-term equilibrium. OTOH, giant mono-cultures of soy and corn being factory processed into highly palatable junk food isn't great design either. Starting small at your own back porch, and cleaning up (closing loops) as you go, is probably plan least likely to prove dysfunctional. Very few people I know on carnivore diets fatten and slaughter their own rabbits and very few people I know on vegan diets grow and process their own soybeans into tofu or other edible form.

Dream of Freedom
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by Dream of Freedom »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:58 am
Since humans are large mammals, and the population of humans is at all time extreme high, favoring other large mammals (even herbivores) in the mix may not result in best-case short-term equilibrium.
Well, the thing is that pasture land is not easily converted to growing crops. Usually they are raised on land with steep hills, poor soil quality, and far from canal systems. We kind of have to eat some animals to maximize food resources.

7Wannabe5
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Dream of Freedom wrote:Well, the thing is that pasture land is not easily converted to growing crops. Usually they are raised on land with steep hills, poor soil quality, and far from canal systems. We kind of have to eat some animals to maximize food resources.
I agree that an individual who is attempting to eat a locavore diet in such a location would likely have to eat some large mammals. But, this does not apply to vast majority of humans who do not make any attempt to raise or know the individuals who do raise their food. There are also other situation in which eating large mammals (if other ethical dilemmas do not prohibit) might be advisable. For simple instance, in situations in which relatively large population of large mammals are eating the vegetables and grains you are attempting to grow to eat yourself. This is one of the simplest methods for "making the problem its own solution." In the Northern rural edge of my realm, pretty straight-forward matter to hunt deer for venison in rough proportion to their take of field corn. In smaller urban setting, a similar strategy might involve feeding slugs to chickens or mulberry leaves to rabbits. Slugs and mulberry leaves are marginally directly edible for humans, but...most would probably want to hold that strategy aside for major apocalypse.

Obviously, the more good land/soil available per human, the more strategies will work. Good soil itself is a system not unlike a large mammal. When I haul carts full of leaves, wood chips, lawn clippings, and other matter on to my garden site, this is directly analogous with putting money into the bank for future withdrawal.

Dream of Freedom
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by Dream of Freedom »

Back to the original question, just plain keto would be the cheapest and least likely to lead to nutrient deficiencies. You would have the flexibility to get the meat on sale, the cheap eggs and vegetables when they are in season and therefore inexpensive. You could even garden. Both the vegan and carnivore diets would limit some of those strategies.

The vegan diet would need supplemented with b vitamins and probably should be supplemented with algee oil as well since the omega3 ala found in plants is very poorly converted (about 2 to 10 %) to dha by your body and is important for brain health.

monkeymanwasd123
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 »

in my case i will be VERY likely to end up in a production role so the cost to produce the beef is the most accurate in my case. i got out of a long depression via learning about permaculture, early retirement extreme,the wim hof method, and many other related topics later including allan savory's work. my grampa owns a ranch next to a series of cattle farms and does the butchering in the area and even if i am unable to move out there i will likely end up working with larger critters as allan savory's work is very good (if not the best) for revegetating desert areas that can later be converted to permaculture food forests (desert-->grassland--->savanna-->silvopasture--->agroforestry managed by critters). i would likely also be trying to convert undermanaged monoculture forestry plots into more productive polycultures. (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=F ... coFbk1kE4w a related playlist i made on youtube please subscribe if you ever go on there) Biodiversity is very important and i would be trying to create a system where livestock were the keystone species instead of a mono crop. cow manure also makes great fertilizer for gardens/feed (cow manure-->pig manure-->chickens).
ethically im good to go as i used the whole "all life is equal" thing and went to the extreme of all life is equal to bacteria because if i went the opposite direction of "i wouldn't hurt a fly" i would just end up killing myself (it helps that permaculture and savorys work is very good for degraded landscapes)
i see the carnivore/keto diet as a basis to investing in cattle/agriculture/forestry as a FI strategy (+youtube because im an 18 year old :lol: ).
allan savory's work is the best thing ive found for fertilizing large scale systems. i agree on the keto diet being the most frugal but quality wise i think producing it myself will yield the best results cost/nutrition wise.

IlliniDave
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by IlliniDave »

I was pretty inspired by Allan Savory's work too. It cut's against the grain of a lot of conventional wisdom, but matching animal husbandry with the environment with nature as a guide sometimes seems almost miraculous. Unfortunately, perhaps, I am unlikely to ever set up shop anywhere where the environment is unforgiving enough that anything besides leaving it alone would be necessary to restore it. I have no vision of producing food tied up with that interest, just an interest in environmental restoration.

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C40
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by C40 »

if you have the skill and time (or the time to get the skill): HUNTING AND GARDENING.

With hunting, you don't have to own or manage the land and plants that the animal eats. You just need the skill, time, tools, transportation, (permission), etc. I believe it must be done frugally for it to actually make sense financially. (for example: butchering it yourself rather than carting it to someone and paying them to)

IlliniDave
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by IlliniDave »

For the morbidly curious and unfamiliar here's a brief talk by Savory. Worldwide veganism may be a luxury we can't afford.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI

IlliniDave
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by IlliniDave »

The OP mentioned Savory as an inspiration for what he wants to accomplish, and he has family in the cattle business. You assert Savory is wrong without watching it, then say that I should do additional research? Okay, well, I didn't suggest the incurious should watch it.

Kriegsspiel
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by Kriegsspiel »

monkeymanwasd123 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:20 am
but im also curious to hear what people have to say about how little we can get a vegan keto diet for.
What does this mean? I assume you meant a ketogenic diet made up of vegan foods (seed oils and nuts?), but then you do beef calculations.

monkeymanwasd123
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 »

i've always been a bit extreme so i think ill end up in extreme environment reforestation and afforestation.
part of the reason why i focus on the carnivore diet so much is because i feel like it is very similar to the wim hof method and i suspect that it will be safer/more time efficient for me to hunt/raise livestock rather than learn to forage everywhere i end up. especially when most of the plants in the world are in edible to humans (im aware the amount of forageable food is crazy) ill trust the critters and the folks around me to do that.

but yeah ill likely get into hunting and gardening, thanks for the suggestion. im kinda worried about living near big predators.

the way i see it space is basically infinite thanks to desertification and how much of humanity lives in urban areas. geoff said something about small scale solutions being awesome, but lately as ive decided to try to get to $1 million while trying to help the earth "as much as i can"/want to. i believe allan savory's work will likely be one of the best resources to revegetate large scale systems so that they can become productive forests. my end goal is to produce tons of old growth forests. (i personally favor chinampas and biodomes myself =P)

retirement wise ill likely employ other people along the way so that i can experiment with chinampas and biodomes.

research wise it looks ok to me. basic logic wise/my understanding of savanas, how grass grows, how trees grow tells me that savory's work is ligit even if the area didnt evolve to handle that specific stresser the plants will quickly adapt/evolve.

im fairly sure that humans evolved to eat meat/fast when our ecosystems were changed/destroyed by early climate change (lucy and all that) so health wise i think its better. plants have more toxins than animals do. animals normally protect themselves by fighting back so i think the nutrients are more bioavailable. i see cattle as mobile compost makers if they dont move they mess up the land but if the do move then they are beneficial.
last time i checked herbovores only digest like 40% so the remainder is simi digested stuff that can quickly be converted to food for pigs chickens bugs and plants. i think that once the grassland/savanna gets dense enough then it should be converted to a food forest. so inefficiency wise i think the benefits they create make them plenty efficient for me. (jesus christ that was disorganized)

monkeymanwasd123
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 »

i was curious about a ketogenic vegan diet so i figured i would put it out there. my main focus is the carnivore diet followed by omnivore keto.

i would like to hear about anyone that is doing a vegan keto diet or just a vegan diet in any/all climates and what the difficulties/solutions might be?

monkeymanwasd123
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 »

specifically high fat low carb vegan? ive heard good things about plant growth in the tropics to the point that one lady only had to do any work in her garden when she wanted to make a path to harvest food or to maintain a tree (minimal work thanks to high rainfall, high biodiversity and other factors im likely missing)

im more interested in the difficultys/ and solutions for more extreme environments such as drylands in the tropics or cold climates
im most interested in solutions that do not include importing food from long distances and greenhouses

Kriegsspiel
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by Kriegsspiel »

I think a book you're going to want to read is Meat: A Benign Extravagance by Fairlie.

monkeymanwasd123
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 »

ill check it out =)

monkeymanwasd123
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 »

ok i read a summary of the book the impression that i got was that it was that if we ate the grain in place of the critters we would be able to fight global hunger easily, while still producing 1/2 the meat via allowing the critters to eat from resources nut used by humans... ok one time I did a calculation for the carrying capacity of the world via permaculture and i calculated that the earth could support 14 billion people on a conservative estimate. note the math was of a monocrop of chestnuts or apples. i think veganism has the highest total carrying capacity, while the carnivore diet takes the least amount of work. i also think that the vegan diet has a lower speed of revegetating the planet and i would prefer that we fix climate change first before anything else

monkeymanwasd123
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 »

if you do not invest in forestry, regenerative farming or regenerative grazing then you will always be carbon positive instead of carbon neutral or carbon negitive

IlliniDave
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by IlliniDave »

monkeymanwasd123 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:31 pm

im more interested in the difficultys/ and solutions for more extreme environments such as drylands in the tropics or cold climates
im most interested in solutions that do not include importing food from long distances and greenhouses
Possibly you're familiar with it already, but arguably the most impressive example of reclamation through transformation of crop-based agricultural management in a semi-arid place (rainfall < 20 in/year in this case) is the Loess Plateau in China (documentaries readily available on Youtube). I admit to not knowing enough about vegan keto regimens to speculate about whether such a climate is suitable for small scale (or even large scale) agriculture geared towards vegan keto, but the project required huge amounts of both human sweat equity and central government financial investment (I think it's in its 2nd or 3rd decade and still ongoing) to essentially terraform an area to undo desertification caused by thousands of years of human habitation.

Savory on the other hand has pioneered techniques to restore desertified land through use of improved agricultural management focused on livestock. Unfortunately livestock has been blamed for the adverse effects of human management of livestock, so his ideas have a strong headwind due to prevailing attitudes. But his foundation and their efforts have proven the viability of reclamation of desertified land on a smaller scale (small village or family) with less financial backing from a strong centralized government. The net result is restored (and net carbon negative) semi-arid land that is productive for agriculture with a blend of crops and livestock. Most of the actual "work" is done by the livestock, but the livestock must be actively and carefully managed by human intervention. This is probably the technique most likely to succeed in areas whose original suitability for human habitation was rooted in a natural landscape of grasslands/savannahs populated by large herds of grazing animals and the predators that exploited them. It's simply mimicking the solution nature provided using livestock to replace the roaming herds. These habitats are also the habitats humans evolved in, and in which we first started practicing agriculture and developed civilization; and were the first areas we turned into deserts, and are continuing to desertify at accelerating rates. They apparently account for something upwards of 2/3 of the earth's land surface, which is why I devoted more words to him.

A third way of doing it is typified by the Selah ranch, where a wealthy man restored a ranch essentially ruined by livestock mismanagement through nudging the landscape back towards its natural state, but the net result is more of a nature preserve without emphasis of agricultural food production. It is potentially a path towards hunter/gatherer sustenance which would naturally be lower in grain and starch-based carbohydrates.

The point of the ramble is that there are "many roads to Dublin". My instinct is that looking to the solutions provided by nature prior to human interference and either mimicking their effect or restoring them outright is the most efficient long-term way to address desertification.

The prevailing wisdom at the present time is:

human activity->atmospheric carbon-based climate change->desertification

But there seems to be a second cycle that predates industrialization by millennia that is relatively ignored:

human activity->desertification->climate change

Much of the approach has to be based on location. In places where the majority of the year is relatively wet and any dry season that exists is moderate in dryness and short (eastern US, northern S. America, NW Europe, SE Asia, etc.) we have a lot of latitude because the environment is resilient and forgiving. In places where drought is the norm (western and southwestern N. America, southern S America, most of Africa, west and southwest Asia, most of Australia, etc.) the range of choices are narrower.

It also depends on what you mean by efficiency.

If it's just a matter of feeding yourself in the desired manner by spending the least time/effort and money to accomplish that, than it is a real estate problem: location, location, location. Pick a benign location and do what suits your fancy.

If you want to approach it as a more holistic investment and consider the net ecological benefit as an offset to invested time and money when calculating the net cost of your nutrition, maybe even prioritizing ecological benefit aspects, then your options expand to include combined ecological restoration-food production projects. Our fellow board members like 7wb5 can speak more eloquently to the system frameworks to formally evaluate such things. I'm much more simple-minded and when I see something like small impoverished villages in Africa transition away from being fed by grain imported from the Midwestern US and turn their little patch of dry, dusty earth into something that looks suitable for human habitation while feeding themselves, I conclude the ideas behind it are sound although I can't evaluate their efficiency.

I must also admit that while such noble ideas stir my heart, I still just drive to the grocery store and forage the shelves for the lowest-dollar means of meeting my nutritional goals.

Kriegsspiel
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by Kriegsspiel »

monkeymanwasd123 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:53 pm
ok i read a summary of the book the impression that i got was that it was that if we ate the grain in place of the critters we would be able to fight global hunger easily, while still producing 1/2 the meat via allowing the critters to eat from resources nut used by humans...
That particular point from the book is that we would produce MORE food if we didn't feed livestock on grain grown for that purpose. So it's not that we could still produce 1/2 the livestock (that was an estimate, it's worth reading about how that estimate was attained in Chap 3, very thought-provoking) even if we didn't feed them grain, it was that the animals close the loop on waste and increase efficiency. So when you accept that premise...
i think veganism has the highest total carrying capacity
... is incorrect, because you produce more food when animals close the loop on waste & bring more biomass into the food chain. The book is pretty fascinating, especially if you describe yourself as a permaculture hippie who wants to do holistic grazing and agriculture. As he says in the introduction:
The conflict between vegans and animal farmers has loomed large in my life: as an agricultural worker, smallholder, environmental journalist, and hippie, I have frequently come into contact with both. Too many farmers have a narrow perspective of the social and environmental issues that confront us; and too many vegans have an equally limited understanding of the way nature works.

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