extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

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monkeymanwasd123
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extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:20 am

i mainly want to focus on the keto diet and the carnivore diet but im also curious to hear what people have to say about how little we can get a vegan keto diet for.
calculation for carnivore diet:
• beef per hectare 1,800 kg ---> 3500kg
• Cost of production fell from $1.10 per kg beef to $0.40 per kg
• Return on assets managed rose from average of 2% before introduction of new grazing system
to 7.5%
(365x4)1.10=1606/12=133.83 per month (food)

note: this is on a large scale ranch so these numbers would likely turn to man hours instead of dollars

... ok im 70% sure my math is wrong so ill let yall have a field day :)

source:
https://www.savory.global/wp-content/up ... erview.pdf

7Wannabe5
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:58 am

I think the important thing to notice is that with intelligent, holistic (or systems based) management, all classes of life must be considered in stewardship and design, no matter which species are meant for consumption by humans. Since humans are large mammals, and the population of humans is at all time extreme high, favoring other large mammals (even herbivores) in the mix may not result in best-case short-term equilibrium. OTOH, giant mono-cultures of soy and corn being factory processed into highly palatable junk food isn't great design either. Starting small at your own back porch, and cleaning up (closing loops) as you go, is probably plan least likely to prove dysfunctional. Very few people I know on carnivore diets fatten and slaughter their own rabbits and very few people I know on vegan diets grow and process their own soybeans into tofu or other edible form.

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Dream of Freedom
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by Dream of Freedom » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:06 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:58 am
Since humans are large mammals, and the population of humans is at all time extreme high, favoring other large mammals (even herbivores) in the mix may not result in best-case short-term equilibrium.
Well, the thing is that pasture land is not easily converted to growing crops. Usually they are raised on land with steep hills, poor soil quality, and far from canal systems. We kind of have to eat some animals to maximize food resources.

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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:52 am

Dream of Freedom wrote:Well, the thing is that pasture land is not easily converted to growing crops. Usually they are raised on land with steep hills, poor soil quality, and far from canal systems. We kind of have to eat some animals to maximize food resources.
I agree that an individual who is attempting to eat a locavore diet in such a location would likely have to eat some large mammals. But, this does not apply to vast majority of humans who do not make any attempt to raise or know the individuals who do raise their food. There are also other situation in which eating large mammals (if other ethical dilemmas do not prohibit) might be advisable. For simple instance, in situations in which relatively large population of large mammals are eating the vegetables and grains you are attempting to grow to eat yourself. This is one of the simplest methods for "making the problem its own solution." In the Northern rural edge of my realm, pretty straight-forward matter to hunt deer for venison in rough proportion to their take of field corn. In smaller urban setting, a similar strategy might involve feeding slugs to chickens or mulberry leaves to rabbits. Slugs and mulberry leaves are marginally directly edible for humans, but...most would probably want to hold that strategy aside for major apocalypse.

Obviously, the more good land/soil available per human, the more strategies will work. Good soil itself is a system not unlike a large mammal. When I haul carts full of leaves, wood chips, lawn clippings, and other matter on to my garden site, this is directly analogous with putting money into the bank for future withdrawal.

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Dream of Freedom
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by Dream of Freedom » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:17 am

Back to the original question, just plain keto would be the cheapest and least likely to lead to nutrient deficiencies. You would have the flexibility to get the meat on sale, the cheap eggs and vegetables when they are in season and therefore inexpensive. You could even garden. Both the vegan and carnivore diets would limit some of those strategies.

The vegan diet would need supplemented with b vitamins and probably should be supplemented with algee oil as well since the omega3 ala found in plants is very poorly converted (about 2 to 10 %) to dha by your body and is important for brain health.

monkeymanwasd123
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:01 pm

in my case i will be VERY likely to end up in a production role so the cost to produce the beef is the most accurate in my case. i got out of a long depression via learning about permaculture, early retirement extreme,the wim hof method, and many other related topics later including allan savory's work. my grampa owns a ranch next to a series of cattle farms and does the butchering in the area and even if i am unable to move out there i will likely end up working with larger critters as allan savory's work is very good (if not the best) for revegetating desert areas that can later be converted to permaculture food forests (desert-->grassland--->savanna-->silvopasture--->agroforestry managed by critters). i would likely also be trying to convert undermanaged monoculture forestry plots into more productive polycultures. (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=F ... coFbk1kE4w a related playlist i made on youtube please subscribe if you ever go on there) Biodiversity is very important and i would be trying to create a system where livestock were the keystone species instead of a mono crop. cow manure also makes great fertilizer for gardens/feed (cow manure-->pig manure-->chickens).
ethically im good to go as i used the whole "all life is equal" thing and went to the extreme of all life is equal to bacteria because if i went the opposite direction of "i wouldn't hurt a fly" i would just end up killing myself (it helps that permaculture and savorys work is very good for degraded landscapes)
i see the carnivore/keto diet as a basis to investing in cattle/agriculture/forestry as a FI strategy (+youtube because im an 18 year old :lol: ).
allan savory's work is the best thing ive found for fertilizing large scale systems. i agree on the keto diet being the most frugal but quality wise i think producing it myself will yield the best results cost/nutrition wise.

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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by IlliniDave » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:56 pm

I was pretty inspired by Allan Savory's work too. It cut's against the grain of a lot of conventional wisdom, but matching animal husbandry with the environment with nature as a guide sometimes seems almost miraculous. Unfortunately, perhaps, I am unlikely to ever set up shop anywhere where the environment is unforgiving enough that anything besides leaving it alone would be necessary to restore it. I have no vision of producing food tied up with that interest, just an interest in environmental restoration.

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C40
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by C40 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:02 pm

if you have the skill and time (or the time to get the skill): HUNTING AND GARDENING.

With hunting, you don't have to own or manage the land and plants that the animal eats. You just need the skill, time, tools, transportation, (permission), etc. I believe it must be done frugally for it to actually make sense financially. (for example: butchering it yourself rather than carting it to someone and paying them to)

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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by bigato » Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:34 pm

Space and resource wise, you can't beat vegan. I estimate that with about 500 square meters of space and time to cultivate, I could almost be self-sufficient in food for myself in a tropical climate. I used to cultivate about 150 square meters when I was married and the amount of food we would get from the garden almost every day was impressive. And I didn't even use very any intensive techniques. Hills may not be easy to cultivate using heavy machinery, but they are just as easy as plains when you are doing it small scale as is the case with ere to feed oneself or a family. Ecology wise, over 70% of all soybeans cultivated in the world go to animal consumption.
If I was not vegan, I'd probably have some chicken, because they are easy enough to raise and can be used in a lot of ways to facilitate growing vegetables (see "chicken tractor" for example). Bigger animal than that, only if I was thinking of starting a business. It's too much work, I'm not retiring to manage cattle full-time. I don't mind growing vegetables tough. But that's me.

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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by IlliniDave » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:11 pm

For the morbidly curious and unfamiliar here's a brief talk by Savory. Worldwide veganism may be a luxury we can't afford.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI

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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by bigato » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:15 pm

Can't watch video here, sorry. That's not what the OP asked either. And it's also wrong as you may find out with some more research and/or applying basic logic. Sure, maybe not possible to eat vegetables if they don't grow where you live, like Antartida or something. Other than that, it's not really hard to understand that the rest of the world that are eating animals are just relying on vegetables indirectly and inefficiently.

IlliniDave
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by IlliniDave » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:56 pm

The OP mentioned Savory as an inspiration for what he wants to accomplish, and he has family in the cattle business. You assert Savory is wrong without watching it, then say that I should do additional research? Okay, well, I didn't suggest the incurious should watch it.

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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:02 pm

monkeymanwasd123 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:20 am
but im also curious to hear what people have to say about how little we can get a vegan keto diet for.
What does this mean? I assume you meant a ketogenic diet made up of vegan foods (seed oils and nuts?), but then you do beef calculations.

monkeymanwasd123
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:13 pm

i've always been a bit extreme so i think ill end up in extreme environment reforestation and afforestation.
part of the reason why i focus on the carnivore diet so much is because i feel like it is very similar to the wim hof method and i suspect that it will be safer/more time efficient for me to hunt/raise livestock rather than learn to forage everywhere i end up. especially when most of the plants in the world are in edible to humans (im aware the amount of forageable food is crazy) ill trust the critters and the folks around me to do that.

but yeah ill likely get into hunting and gardening, thanks for the suggestion. im kinda worried about living near big predators.

the way i see it space is basically infinite thanks to desertification and how much of humanity lives in urban areas. geoff said something about small scale solutions being awesome, but lately as ive decided to try to get to $1 million while trying to help the earth "as much as i can"/want to. i believe allan savory's work will likely be one of the best resources to revegetate large scale systems so that they can become productive forests. my end goal is to produce tons of old growth forests. (i personally favor chinampas and biodomes myself =P)

retirement wise ill likely employ other people along the way so that i can experiment with chinampas and biodomes.

research wise it looks ok to me. basic logic wise/my understanding of savanas, how grass grows, how trees grow tells me that savory's work is ligit even if the area didnt evolve to handle that specific stresser the plants will quickly adapt/evolve.

im fairly sure that humans evolved to eat meat/fast when our ecosystems were changed/destroyed by early climate change (lucy and all that) so health wise i think its better. plants have more toxins than animals do. animals normally protect themselves by fighting back so i think the nutrients are more bioavailable. i see cattle as mobile compost makers if they dont move they mess up the land but if the do move then they are beneficial.
last time i checked herbovores only digest like 40% so the remainder is simi digested stuff that can quickly be converted to food for pigs chickens bugs and plants. i think that once the grassland/savanna gets dense enough then it should be converted to a food forest. so inefficiency wise i think the benefits they create make them plenty efficient for me. (jesus christ that was disorganized)

monkeymanwasd123
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:16 pm

i was curious about a ketogenic vegan diet so i figured i would put it out there. my main focus is the carnivore diet followed by omnivore keto.

i would like to hear about anyone that is doing a vegan keto diet or just a vegan diet in any/all climates and what the difficulties/solutions might be?

bigato
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by bigato » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:46 pm

I'm vegan in Brazil and I don't see any difficulties, on the contrary, it's much easier and cheaper than eating meat.

monkeymanwasd123
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:31 pm

specifically high fat low carb vegan? ive heard good things about plant growth in the tropics to the point that one lady only had to do any work in her garden when she wanted to make a path to harvest food or to maintain a tree (minimal work thanks to high rainfall, high biodiversity and other factors im likely missing)

im more interested in the difficultys/ and solutions for more extreme environments such as drylands in the tropics or cold climates
im most interested in solutions that do not include importing food from long distances and greenhouses

bigato
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by bigato » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:38 pm

No, just vegan. I don't do high fat low carb. You may want to take a look at how people grow food in the desert in Israel. Great stuff.

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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:39 pm

I think a book you're going to want to read is Meat: A Benign Extravagance by Fairlie.

monkeymanwasd123
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Re: extremely frugal vegan keto,keto, and carnivore diets

Post by monkeymanwasd123 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:41 pm

ill check it out =)

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