Random Relationship Derailment Thread

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prognastat
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:19 am

I think the difference between creepy and gross is wether you are feeling scared/intimidated. If you aren't then something is gross, if you are then it's creepy.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:19 am

Kriegspiel wrote:No man would categorize a batshit crazy, sexually-needy woman as "creepy" if she was hot
Not a fan of Glenn Close movies, I assume?
obese woman with a mullet and a mustache was pawing you and aggressively trying to bang you I think every man would acknowledge it as being in the same category as "creepy" if you asked them
How about one who looked kind of like 11/16th of the way to Mrs. Santa Claus or "Meet the Fockers" era Barbara Streisand? Wait, wait, don't even answer. Go ask an uncle, and then get back to me. :lol:
if a male wants to get laid, he's going to have to create some sexual tension to see if she is willing to go.
True, but a reasonably mature, sexually self-aware woman should be able to do her part of the dance by signalling willingness* too.

* Of course, not to be confused with the behavior assigned to the mullet-maned female above.

Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:24 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:41 am
Now who's over-reacting? Giving off a creepy vibe is not actually a recognized offense. Also, it may very well be the case that even though you are tall you rarely come off as intimidating, because, for instance, maybe you also come off as jovial.
With all the #MeToo witch hunts, are you sure it's not actually an offense? I recall some guy had consensual sex with a women and then got a 10 page write up in some high falutin magazine over it which essentially ended his career? It was essentially the same concept as the elevator scenes above, the dude thought he was being fabio, and the girl had sex with him then regretted it and hopped on the #MeToo bandwagon to tar and feather him.

I dunno, I'm still mulling things over in my head. But I am still dumb founded by being told earlier in this thread that denying that I am sexist is proof that I'm sexist. That's a riff on the venerable "If she can swim across the river then she is in league with the devil! If she drowns then she's innocent" There's just a huge witch hunt overtone in modern society.

Like I said, I could never have conceived that me walking into an elevator and looking around would be interpreted as a sign of hostile dominance. The whole reason I look around the elevator is to make sure there aren't any threats to ME. I understand that women have a lot of crap to deal with and a lot of douche bag men out there, but next time you're in an elevator getting creeped out, just remember the guy in the corner may be just as terrified of you as you are of him :lol:

Jason
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jason » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:30 am

Augustus wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:24 am
I recall some guy had consensual sex with a women and then got a 10 page write up in some high falutin magazine over it which essentially ended his career? It was essentially the same concept as the elevator scenes above, the dude thought he was being fabio, and the girl had sex with him then regretted it and hopped on the #MeToo bandwagon to tar and feather him.
There's actually a video of that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Yrhv33Zb8

daylen
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by daylen » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:47 am

Augustus wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:24 am
But I am still dumb founded by being told earlier in this thread that denying that I am sexist is proof that I'm sexist.
Reminds me of this clip from Silicon Valley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSzmVFF58Mo

The first two seasons of that show are awesome.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:05 am

Augustus wrote:There's just a huge witch hunt overtone in modern society.
I don't disagree. Last autumn I visited the memorial to my great^10 aunt who was hung for witchcraft. Apparently, almost up to the moment she was convicted she couldn't believe it was actually happening to her. Interesting note would be that given the small size of the colony at that time, the more living adult children an accused witch had, the less likely she would be convicted. So, maybe there could be some modern way of accumulating social capital that could be similarly protective?

That said, this analogy breaks down at the level that experience of witchcraft and experience of sexual assault reflect reality. I have been a victim of sexual assault myself, but I still think that false or irresponsible or trivial accusations are terrible, for the welfare of both men and women in our society moving forward.

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:14 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:19 am
Not a fan of Glenn Close movies, I assume?
I'm gonna need to ask the audience on this one.
True, but a reasonably mature, sexually self-aware woman should be able to do her part of the dance by signalling willingness* too.
No argument there.

Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:26 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:05 am
The Pence rule is basically a defense against witch hunts. It's similar to my defense against gang violence, I don't go to areas where there are a lot of gangs. However, what's really funny, is that Pence had a witch hunt leveled at him, BECAUSE he tried to reduce his chances of having a witch hunt leveled at him by simply not being alone with a woman. You can't be accused of sexual assault if you were never alone in a room with a woman right? Or, like me, my denial of being sexist is proof of my being sexist. :lol:

Jason
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jason » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:49 am

Pence rule is based on Billy Graham rule and has been adopted by most Evangelical Pastors. The church has an obligation to offer assistance to single women - both young and widows - and this is there way of avoiding any issues. If there is a visitation, there is always two people, sometimes two men, in attendance.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:56 am

Well, the Pence Rule has kind of been altered from its original purpose. The subtle but important difference between "Don't go into the donut store if you don't plan on eating a donut." vs. "Don't go into the donut store, if you don't want to be accused of stealing a donut." Nobody knows better than you how subject to temptation you are, but it may be easy to err one way or the other in estimating the ill intentions or immaturity of others.

Since I was sexually assaulted on an occasion I carelessly allowed myself to be alone with a man on a first date, I follow a mild version of the Pence rule myself. However, for my own good, I try to not allow a single bad experience raise my risk aversion to the level that my overall self-interest is ill-served. Ruling out all the possible benefits of sharing conversation over a meal in public with a member of the opposite gender does seem like overkill.

Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:03 pm

"alone" is the key word. I can see the sense of a man or a woman not wanting to be alone in a room with someone of the opposite sex. Restaurants, coffee shops, etc all work fine since you aren't alone.

When I was feeling snarkier this morning, my original response was going to be that the government should provide hamster balls for everyone so that no one will ever need to be in a room with someone else. But oh wait, that would be sexist and racist, rats..

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:49 pm

Augustus wrote:"alone" is the key word. I can see the sense of a man or a woman not wanting to be alone in a room with someone of the opposite sex. Restaurants, coffee shops, etc all work fine since you aren't alone.
Right. Generally applicable rule of thumb is that transitional spaces are most risky, whether you are a woman out after dark, a video game player, or a deer looking for food. I always give my intuition a quick slow rational double-check before I agree to get into a car with a man I just started dating. Little things like knowing where he works, or letting him know that I have let somebody else know of my plans for the evening will add up to a greater sense of security.

Peanut
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Peanut » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:57 pm

The biggest problem for me with Pence’s rule is not his self-policing per se but its consequences. So male staffers and underlings of his who want to get ahead are at a significant advantage if they can get more face time with him while their female peers cannot.

@Augustus: If you’re talking about Aziz Ansari, many readers including women found the write-up of his date to be an invasion of his privacy. The woman and journalist were heavily criticized. And his career has not suffered any long-lasting or significant setback.

Are there many other examples? On the other hand I think the revelations about the Cosbys, MJ, Asia Argento, raped nuns forced to have abortions, etc. are important reckonings society needs to have. So I don’t think #metoo has been like a witch hunt at all. As Idris Elba said about the climate in HW, “it’s only difficult if you’re a man with something to hide.”

Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:15 pm

Peanut wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:57 pm
Well sure, so just make it that you never spend time with ANYONE alone :D. I get that most women are not a problem, but I also think it's clear that a man can be brought up on charges of being a witch these days pretty easily. Up thread I mentioned that I have nothing to gain by being alone with a woman in a room, and before everyone calls me a sexist (again [not directed at you Peanut]), I don't feel that I have anything to gain by being alone with a man in a room either, I'm not looking to gain anything in an elevator other than elevation. It's a more efficient use of my time to just adopt the pence rule.

It's effectively the reverse of 7w5's rule of not being alone with a man she doesn't know well. 99% of the time you wont have a problem, but the cost of the 1% chance of a witch hunt makes it not worth the trouble, especially since there's nothing to be gained. It's the same reason I stay out of compton :D

suomalainen
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by suomalainen » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:09 pm

1) I had my question answered to my satisfaction, so I was gonna let this go, but I do have to say one thing about this whole #metoo scare stuff. Solve this inequality:

# of women raped by men _____ # of men falsely accused of rape / sexual harassment

If the answer is even a little bit unclear, consider the fact that a "successful" crime is where there are no public repercussions for the perpetrator (no gossip, no accusation, no indictment, no conviction). Now consider that while a man can commit a "successful" rape, it is impossible for a woman to commit a "successful" false accusation of rape. In other words, rape can be "costless" for a male perpetrator, but a false accusation is not "costless" for a female perpetrator. Her life will be tossed upside down as well. See, e.g., Monica Lewinsky, who I think didn't even accuse Bill of anything.

2) As to the alone time thing, depends on what you mean by alone. If "alone" means "in my office with dozens of other offices nearby", I am alone with women all the time and it bothers me not one whit. And I have a hard time believing that any "normal" man (or better) could not generally comport himself in a manner such that *no one* would believe a woman who falsely accused him of something untoward. If "alone" means "in a hotel room", well, duh, don't do that.

3) That said, I am aware that *certain* men, far richer or more important than me, can be targeted for money or whatever. I have heard that new NBA, NFL, etc players are taught, whether formally or informally, that they should beware predatory women and should, for example, take their used condoms with them when they leave a place lest the woman dig it out of the trash and try to inseminate herself with its contents. No idea if that's true, but this concern would likely apply to a very, very small percentage of the male population (compared to, for example, the 30% or so of the female population that is sexually assaulted, last I heard).

TL;DR - rape is a real problem; false accusations of rape is not.

Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:30 pm

So far in this thread I've been falsely accused of being a sexist, a racist, and now a "rape is a problem" denier. I submit for your consideration that false accusations seem to be a very real problem for me.

Further proof that I should adopt the pence rule for both men and women. :lol:

suomalainen
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by suomalainen » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:07 pm

Meh. Reminds me of the 1. X 2. ? 3. Profit! meme.

1. Discussion of complex issues
2. ?
3. Participant claims he has been accused of being a "rape is a problem" denier.

I don't think my post could even be read cynically to suggest you were denying that rape is a problem. The juxtaposition of the two "problems" was to show how it can be difficult to discuss one issue without some people flipping the discussion to "well, you think YOU have it bad? Let me tell you about THIS!" See, e.g., your initial post on this subtopic on how the discussions of creepy behavior was making YOU afraid to be alone with a woman; hence, adopting the Pence. At most, I was accusing you of not being able to discuss an issue affecting others without making it about yourself. But really it wasn't even that, I was doing what I just "accused" you of doing - I ignored your point to make my own (that #metoo victimhood is overplayed).

In any event, since it's a very real problem for you, if you don't mind my asking, how many times have you been falsely accused of sexual misconduct, what happened and how were they resolved?

slowtraveler
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by slowtraveler » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:29 am

A bit shit crazy, violent woman would definitely fall under creepy no matter how physically attractive. Threatening or trying to hurt me will kill my attraction, hot cannot stand on its own

I've actually met with many woman like this, I'd take a slight drop in initial attractiveness for sanity and great communication skills any day.

Jason
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jason » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:17 am

Augustus wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:30 pm
So far in this thread I've been falsely accused of being a sexist, a racist, and now a "rape is a problem" denier. I submit for your consideration that false accusations seem to be a very real problem for me.

Further proof that I should adopt the pence rule for both men and women. :lol:
Good idea, Mr. President.

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C40
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by C40 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:47 am

suomalainen wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:09 pm
false accusations of rape is not [a real problem]
A personal friend of mine was almost murdered when he was about 17 years old. A girl he had consensual sex with (with a witness!) turned out to have a boyfriend. Her boyfriend saw my friend dropping her off. She said my friend raped her. Her boyfriend was the vengeful type and decided he'd kill my friend. There was truly a good chance of it happening. The guy ended up killing someone else within a few weeks, at a gas station in view of cameras, just to save a few hundred dollars by coming out of their drug deal with both the drugs and the money.

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