Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

[TopHatFox]

Been thinking recently that the only way to get wealthy is hard ass work over years. For every person that becomes an overnight multi-millionaire, news stories don't show the years if not decades they dedicated to get there. Likewise, for every van lifer or perma-thru-hiker on Instagram, you don't see the lack of money behind the curtain, or the wealthy parents behind them.

I reached out to a few close friends recently. One's wife killed herself after their divorce, another is working at a restaurant after their BA, and a third did the AT but is now depressed out of her mind at the thought of an office job.

So I guess that's the point right, a good indicator of how well you're doing in life is if you're healthy, working hard, and the progress to goals is slow and steady. There are very few get-rich quick schemes that actually work. If you want to be wealthy, the answer is minimalism, saving, and doing a job or business you're suited for for years. If you want to be glittering rich, the answer is coming up with something people don't know they need yet and then working around the clock to sell the product/idea.

And if you don't put in that hard work in your 20's, then life in your 30's, 40's, 50's will not only be filled with more work, but you won't have as much compound interest to help you on your way. Moreover, becoming a multi-millionaire requires so much fucking effort that I don't think it's worth the trade-off. Becoming a real-estate tycoon, for example, takes risk-taking, years of making mistakes, and even then you may go bankrupt. Running McDonald's franchises will run you ragged on the stress test, and they may flunk too.

I think the happy medium is to do what C40 did, save around 500K in your 20's, and then take really good care of yourself and that money as you age. Then fill your life in your 30's and beyond with meaningful activities, friendships, and relationships that make a life well lived. Make some money on your hobbies, don't rely on the portfolio only, hope the world doesn't collapse, and you end up a millionaire with an interesting life. Steve Jobs literally died with billions in the bank. Would I have wanted to live his life if I could? Probably not.

[EdithKeeler]

I think the happy medium is to do what C40 did, save around 500K in your 20's, and then take really good care of yourself and that money as you age. Then fill your life in your 30's and beyond with meaningful activities,

Huh. Interesting. You’d think someone would write a book about this idea. Maybe call it something like “Early Retirement Extreme” or something.

[Lemur]

I've had similar thoughts TopHatFox in my early 20s (I'm 28 now). The sooner it is a accepted that the way to get wealthy is some hard work over some years, the easier it is to handle mentally. I, personally, would prioritize health over wealth. I've no qualms about my gym membership, purchasing food that I feel is best for me based on nutritional research, and the occasional purchase of exercise equipment. I love the feeling I get seeing my abs and being able to get up and run a half-marathon if I felt like it.

And now for some analysis...the "harder" part is really subjective! And I say this because of my own interpretations of what it means for the different archetypes:

Salary Man = Being Consistent. Really, it is about consistency.... just show up everyday and don't be late (if you're going to show up late, don't get caught), maybe do some type of work that you find meaningful...even if not meaningful show your superiors / co-workers just enough to not be given the 'useless' target label, and don't piss off the guy that does your "performance review".

Business Man = Optimism, some creativity, thinking outside the box, and risk-taking behavior can be a plus. Hard work may be required initially, but can level off if one is good at management. Creativity isn't even required...many successful businesses just rehash the same old concept (a restaurant for instance, real estate flipping, etc.) but execute well.

Working Man = Working hard, persistence in activities, a bit of hard-hardheadedness goes a long way. A plus if you generally enjoy what your trade is and can find meaning that way. Social skills help as to learn how to divert away from a-holes.

Renaissance man = Creativity, Flexibility, and Adaptability. Being able to manage a lot of different skills.

"Working Hard" would be a part of each one of these archetypes. If you're socially savvy...you can probably get away with being lazy in a salary-man position. If the pay is low enough in the Working Man position, you can probably get away with being lazy their too. If you're creative enough in your money making ventures, and require less spending, you could even be lazy as a renaissance man perhaps. If you're great a managing people, allocating resources, you could even be lazy as a business man (though you may not maximize revenues / cash flow but if that is not the goal it shouldn't matter).

[Stahlmann]

Apart your no 1 earning skill average 3rd worlder is working "harder" than you. I would even argue that us true even for 2nd world.

Beat this.

[prognastat]

Well unless you are extremely gifted or lucky chances are that it's going to require some hard work to achieve anything in life, however as we all know it isn't near what people expect depending on your wants/expectations.

$231,000 saved per person would allow you to live off 1 JAFI at 3% SWR, this isn't an insignificant sum, but by no means does it require Herculean efforts to achieve either. If from 20 to 30 you manage to live off 1 JAFI and have an income of about 23k annually investing the rest you would be FI by 30. To achieve this on full-time work you would need to earn about $11 an hour, if you add overtime or working a second job/side gig you could even get away with a lower hourly wage.

[TopHatFox]

Hard work is most definitely not the only way to amass money.

I guess it's the most straight forward way. What are some non-hard work ways to amass money?

[EdithKeeler]

I guess it's the most straight forward way. What are some non-hard work ways to amass money?

1. Live as cheaply as possible and invest the difference. I’m sort of amazed at how much my nut has grown just by putting in bits at a time. Granted thru a bull market.... but also endured the downturn. You know all the tricks for living cheap—roomies, bike, etc.

2. Real estate can help. 7 years in, my rental is paying for its own mortgage plus my basic living expenses. Then see #1. (Again: I had to get thru a rough patch where I was seriously upside down and losing $$).

3. Figure out ways to make money that don’t entail hard work, and by hard work, I mean something you don’t enjoy. I make a little extra money buying and reselling estate sale stuff. If you hate doing it, it’s hard work. If you like it, it’s fun on a Saturday. For you it might mean dog walking or leading tour groups around town.

4. Redefine “hard work.” I work in an office looking at a computer all day. My grandfather worked on drilling rigs and on a farm; he would have laughed uproariously at the idea that sitting on your ass all day is hard work. I keep that in mind on days like today where I’ve had two nasty and heated conversations with attorneys and others. “It’s hard work arguing with these assholes,” she said as she left the office to go eat the free lunch provided by her employer. No.... it’s really not, in the grand scheme.

[prognastat]

Well you could:
- receive/inherit a large sum from family
- mooching of your friends would require some social skills
- less moral/legal ways such as fraud or fraud-like behaviour

[EdithKeeler]

There is a great interview with Elizabeth Gilbert on LinkedIn. She makes the point that you don’t have to love your job—it may just be ameans to an end. We’ve heard this before in YMOL and other places, too.
https://player.fm/series/hello-monday-2 ... -vocations

[classical_Liberal]

1. Live as cheaply as possible and invest the difference. I’m sort of amazed at how much my nut has grown just by putting in bits at a time. Granted thru a bull market.... but also endured the downturn. You know all the tricks for living cheap—roomies, bike, etc.

I think this is the biggest mistake I made in my youth and the same mistake young people on this forum still make. It all boils down to not having experience with large allotments of time. I'm not just talking get rich slowly compound interest(although that is one component of it). It's that small actions over large periods of time have so much more impact than large actions over short period of time.

There is nothing wrong about wanting to be FI by 30, it's totally doable. The trade off is spending much of your 20's chasing money. I think it works well because many people are the most energetic and career minded at this point. However, if someone is the exception to this rule, there is nothing wrong with spending your 20's doing other things. As long as it's reasonably responsible, and small, life long financial habits are formed and maintained. I spent my 20's chasing money without those good habits and it bit me in the ass. However, I would rather have started my 30's with zero net worth with a shit-ton of great, youthful experiences and skills than 300K. The best would be somewhere in the middle. Because people can always earn more money, but certain phases of life are best for certain experiences.

@Lemur
You don't have to choose one archetype from the book. Mixing and matching throughout your life is the best strategy, IMO

[Lemur]

@Lemur
You don't have to choose one archetype from the book. Mixing and matching throughout your life is the best strategy, IMO

True. But also like any competency one gets better if they stay put (specialization). It has its pros/cons. I've been a 'Salary man' since I was 18. Its all I've known but it also has served me well. I like the idea of Businessman / Renaissance-man but have only dabbled in the latter while the former a good friend of mine from high school has stuck with and has unfortunately not found success yet.

[classical_Liberal]

I think, by far, the biggest risk of staying singularly in any particular quadrant too long is our fickle human minds simply get used to it. Then, by proxy, we forget there are other ways. How many failing serial entrepreneurs are there? How many salary men that continue with OMY, because once they quit they think they can never earn more money? How many working men who complain they can never get stable work? How many renaissance men repeatedly spending hours making soap to save $5 per year?

Look, it's good to know how to make soap by doing it once. It's good to know how to start a business, it's good to know how to work at salary man and save a bunch of money, etc. My point is, when we spend too much time in one realm, we tend to forget the other possibilities.

Edited: for my usual bad grammar and spelling

[Lemur]

I think, by far, the biggest risk of staying singularly in any particular quadrant too long is our fickle human minds simply get used to it. Then, by proxy, we forget there are other ways. How many failing serial entrepreneurs are there? How many salary men that continue with OMY, because once they quit they think they can never earn more money? How many working men who complain they can never get stable work? How many renaissance men repeatedly spending hours making soap to save $5 per year?

Look, it's good to know how to make soap by doing it once. It's good to know how to start a business, it's good to know how to work at salary man and save a bunch of money, etc. My point is, when we spend too much time in one realm, we tend to forget the other possibilities.

Edited: for my usual bad grammar and spelling

Agree.

[7Wannabe5]

True, but it is also important to recall that the main point Jacob was trying to get across with that graph was that the Renaissance Man is minimizing dependencies. However, one thing I am noticing looking at this graph again is that it doesn't directly address the issue, or common divide found here and on other closely related forums, of location dependency. Tying yourself to a particular latitude/longitude allows for the accumulation of local stocks/tools and greater development of social network, but leaves you shit out of luck if your locale is the loser in any given SHTF scenario.

So, in almost every FIRE community, everybody is seeking the semi-unicorn of the highly compensated on hourly basis, very flexible job you can do anywhere as bridge between Salary Man and Renaissance Man quadrants. In a weird way, this is almost evidence that some of us are now living in a post-capitalist world, because this sort of job, especially if done as contractor/consultant, is like unto a mini-business requiring virtually no capital investment. But, except maybe to the extent that robots are being operated at a distance, this sort of work can't possibly produce the basic stuff, like food, which humans need to live.

[classical_Liberal]

@7WB5
Right, I think you hit the nail on the head. Even in Renaissance Man quadrant there are still dependencies, they are just different in kind. Making my own clothes, I am dependent on sourcing materials (or growing my own cotton/ raising wool). Also it requires the correct tools, land to grow cotton/raise wool, and a space large enough for a loom. Not to mention the requisite time/effort in learning the skill.

That's not to say RM quadrant isn't the least dependent of all quadrants. Rather, experience and ability to switch between the quadrants, when it makes most sense to do so, makes one less dependent as a whole. This way, If I can't source or grow my own cotton, I can still pick up a temp job (working man quadrant) to raise the capital to purchase clothing from someone else. I think of this similar to investing, the ability and knowledge regarding diversification of asset classes allows one to weather any storm that stirs in the macroeconomic climate and/or personal circumstances.

This is inferred in the book though. Since ERE, in principle, has someone using salary man, working man, or business man quadrants to free energy to work on the final, most robust quadrant, Renaissance Man. Plus, using one or more of the other quadrants as a means to further RM in an ongoing fashion (ie why not sell/trade the extra clothing you make, if you are set up to do so and it fits in personal web-of-goals).

[TopHatFox]

Yes, yes, very good. And all of this still means...that my hard-working butt needs to be standing at different desks and typing different shit into different computers for the next few years.

[classical_Liberal]

No!
What it means is that your plan; Salary Man-------(years)-------> Renaissance Man, is not the only way. You have something like 10 years expenses saved, no? If you're currently dissatisfied, spend some time in one of the other 3 quadrants.

[Mister Imperceptible]

I am the semi-unicorn consultant 7W5 referred to. It’s more of a cross between Salary Man and Business Man than Salary/Renaissance. I earn 3x what full-time employees make who are doing to same thing, all I had to do was give up “job security” and figure out what the margins were. Super-high hourly rate. Hotels and travel expenses paid for, with a per diem. No overhead, no fixed capital expenses, no inventory. Very efficient, not resilient. Business connections beget business connections. It’s a ruthless and relentless game. But so many doors are opening that were previously closed. I have put in 6 years and I do not enjoy the work outside of some social aspects and seeing the large sums move into my bank account. I can see myself putting in another 2-6 years but then I will be able to go anywhere, except live indefinitely in the most expensive places.

If you were to become a Business Man now, what would you do? Can you invent something? Produce a good? Manufacture? Identify an inefficiency in the market? Right now I merely provide a service, and it is asymmetrical- I get paid whether the client company succeeds or blows up. If you are going to make something you better be in love with what you are making, or have some vision and commitment to a process, because if you fail you make no money and perhaps lose money invested in the business. Hard to be an entrepreneur while perusing the options on OkCupid, better put the phone down and work 80 hours a week (unless you are developing the next goofy dating app).

Maybe it is not the worst thing to fail if nothing other than to learn from it. But even now I am impatient with “Well I failed but I learned.” I better damn well be learning if I am not earning, and the learning cannot be some disguised rationalization after the fact. Be rigorous and beware of magical thinking.

[wolf]

Key takeaways from the past few months:
1. The real world is shit for people without money
2. The money is where the people with money are
3. Graduate education likely leads to downpayment in money and no nice job anyway
4. The working world is usually a horrible place
5. Living simply and saving is the key to making the above as short as possible
6. Finding friends and partners takes deliberate and determined effort in none-college world
7. Showing up to job and doing good work while focusing on positives is best path forward; embrace the suck and all that

Maybe you could reflect on the past, reevaluate the experiences and lessons learned and adapt them to your present situation?

[Gilberto de Piento]

Wolf giving a suggestion to Fox; it's like a children's book in here.