Random Relationship Derailment Thread

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
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Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:53 pm

prognastat wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:47 pm
As for a comparison on her bias look at how she writes about women cheating:
I would like to posit Augustus' first law of relationships: Anyone who writes a hit piece on the opposite sex likely has relationship issues, the longer the length of the piece the higher the likelihood. You may adjust this to your sexual orientation as needed.

Crazylemon
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Crazylemon » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:56 pm

@Augustus

The point I am trying to make is going beyond recognising the issue is exists is how it is best to move forward to actually help solve the problem. The abrasive defensiveness is going to mean even those who might read the forums etc. are not going to feel particularly inclined to comment or share their insight (Please stay C&T!) in to these issues which being from a different perspective might provide novel (to here) strategies for individuals to try. Clearly lack of success in relationships causes significant distress, hence the need for a derailment thread here or, just silencing the issue in most other similar spheres. Banning discussion of an issue does not mean it does not exist.

Having more women in this space would enhance it. Now, maybe women are just less interested in fruagality. But that doesn't mean almost none. As far as I am aware the only very active female poster is 7wb5 who is one of the most awesome outliers ever. That to me suggests that it likely isn't an inviting space.

@Prognastat

Yes she isn't some impartial commentator but biased sources are not entirely without merit on all fronts.

Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:03 pm

Yeah agree, would be nice to even out the ratio. One of the downsides to being "Extreme" and having a cult leader is that it's probably a turn off to most women. Meanwhile, like extreme sports, it has a devout following of well intentioned but sometimes not very.. practical.. men. But after you get past the weirdness you can see that most of us are just big teddy bears. CS even said I was a breath of fresh air (thanks CS!!)! Although she may be changing her mind shortly..

prognastat
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:09 pm

JennyPenny, DutchGirl, Sclass, Chenda, EdithKeeler are all very active. Im sure there are many more either just not coming to mind or that don't indicate they are women in their name or posts.

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Stahlmann
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Stahlmann » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:09 pm

Sclass isnt a dude?!

prognastat
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:10 pm

I didn't think so, but if Sclass is a dude they have my sincerest apologies.

Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:12 pm

Sclass works in IT and loves their mother. That screams being a dude. Could just be projection on my part.
Last edited by Augustus on Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cats_and_tats
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:15 pm

Agree @crazylemon

I actually am active in several other frugality forums and spaces, but tend not to be here because it isn't welcoming to women. I follow and interact in spaces where the majority of people are nothing like me - they have kids, they are religious, whatever - but we put those things aside to help each other succeed in frugality. It isn't about name calling or hating in people who disagree with us or whatever.

But this space is often very sexist, and it's not fun to be around as a lady. Yes, there might be less women interested than men in FIRE, but as someone who does interact with many frugal women, I can tell you that generally they aren't going to read the boards and want to stay here. I only really joined to tease someone, and if I wasn't doing that there isn't any way I'd be here. There's a lot of pretty gross things said about women from those who are mad women are their own people who don't exist soley for the pleasure of men. Or men who are angry about their relationship inadequacies and blaming everyone but themselves.

And I get it, if you feel that way and want to talk about it that way, of course it's more fulfilling to mostly talk to those who feel the same way and can commiserate that women all suck, and the space doesn't change. And why should women fight so hard to be welcome here? There are lots of spaces that are welcoming enough that we don't need to go up against things like that to be accepted.

Crazylemon
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Crazylemon » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:18 pm

@prognast good point. I am forgetting way too many people. I am not entirely sure how other than thinking only within the realm of activity within this sort of thread, sorry.

Jason
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jason » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:20 pm

prognastat wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:47 pm
As for a comparison on her bias look at how she writes about women cheating:
https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why ... e-than-men

Suddenly instead of trying to paint the subjects of the topic as negative as possible we are trying to find gray areas and excuses for what is generally considered bad behaviour.
Amber, an attorney and millennial woman living in Los Angeles, admitted to blowing only first year attorneys in her firm because "The male dominated management culture was so sexist that I felt the need to demonstrate that I wanted to be judged solely on my legal abilities and that I was therefore only going to hand out sexual favors to those who could not help me in my career advancement." When asked if she had a boyfriend she responded "Yes, but he's not satisfying my needs, so I don't consider it an issue."

Gilberto de Piento
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Gilberto de Piento » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:20 pm

There was a recent thread of someone saying how they have more success with women when you start relationships by lying to them, and many people were like, oh, great idea, whatever gets you that pussy. But I can guarantee if a lady started the relationship with lies and got found out and it was posted about here, everyone would be saying how all women are liars and garbage and cheats, etc.
I thought this was terrible and I think I (too gently) called him out on it. He has reported some other questionable non-relationship behaviors in the past. Not everyone is going to be well behaved unfortunately.

I'm glad you posted your opinion on the article even if we don't agree on it.

Cats_and_tats
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:40 pm

Gilberto de Piento wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:20 pm
I'm glad you posted your opinion on the article even if we don't agree on it.
Good in the call-out, I remembered someone was like, really? And it was you. I decided not to engage about it.

My comments weren't actually really only about the article. I read it quickly, and the overall feeling matched the feeling I often get here. Where women are talked about or treated a certain way that can be really gross. Did she say specific things that aren't totally correct, or are exaggerated, sure. But the feeling of the article matched my experience in the listed forums, which is more what I responded to.

I actually wanted to join several times over the years because I was interested in something being posted, then looked around and was like - nope. I imagine that is not uncommon for women who may find their way this direction.

prognastat
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:47 pm

@ Cats_and_tats
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10493&start=80#p185975

I think I made at least some points regarding the issues with the blogpost even if you don't agree with all my disagreements.

Toska2
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Toska2 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:50 pm

@slsdly

I have had a knife pulled on me more than gfs. The competition is fierce in more than one way.

@7wannabe5

Don't feel sorry for me. I have a more correct view of the social dynamics. Panning out to the whole situation, one gets a different feeling. What I alluded to is, generally women are dropping out of dating faster than men. That is true up to and including death and it cascades from there. I am wise enough to know what matters to me, my INTJ-ness is not noticeable due daily differences.

@white belt

Location, Location, Location. I know. I read an article about the one thing in common for most partners was a sub one hour commute. That allows relaxed weekday activites. My former career made mechanical engineering look like nursing, 99.x% male. Saying I am location independent is a nice way of saying I am underemployed.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:15 pm

I agree with what C&T said about the existence of other frugality realms that are more inviting to females. For instance, 25-30 years ago (Gawd, I am so old) when my kids were babies, my frugality references overlapped heavily with my breast-feeding hippie Mom references. My ex was the office manager of a very large, very good book store and he would bring me home stacks of cover-removed-magazines with articles like "How I Feed My Family of 6 on $40/Week" and rhapsodies on the joys of cuddling up for a nap with your 3 year old after spending the morning picking apples for pie.

As another counter-example, I can't for the life of me remember the name of the former frequent poster to this forum, but at some point his avatar was a smiling picture of himself, his wife, and their two very cute babies, as they were traveling around the world together. Every time I saw that picture, I thought about how appealing it might be to a fairly large swath of females, including young me.

Frugality can be defined as best practice in the realm of home economics. So, there really isn't any reason why the topic shouldn't appeal to women as much as men. Like the related topic of gardening, it is a realm that requires both masculine and feminine energy. The "problem" is that this forum generally veers WAAAAY over towards the FINANCE 402 side of home economics and away from the notion of warmth inherent in the word "home." In fact, the whole highly individualistic notion of "personal" finance contributes to this "chill" and promotes the ridiculous belief that there are humans who don't even need a home, or any living thing to love, care for, or cherish and vice-versa.

That said, I TRULY do not believe that Jacob himself is promoting of this philosophy. His vulnerable "baby" is the environment of the planet, and I believe his wife, who holds an advanced degree in something like unto Field Biology shares this deep commitment. That's why he encourages people to spend less more than he encourages people to earn/save more. So, it is very unfair to create such a caricature of him and his marriage.

Cats_and_tats
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:23 pm

prognastat wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:47 pm
@ Cats_and_tats
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10493&start=80#p185975

I think I made at least some points regarding the issues with the blogpost even if you don't agree with all my disagreements.
I saw that and whether those are comments I disagree with or not, they are comments about what she said. So yeah, that seems reasonable (even if I know I don't agree with all of these). I honestly don't feel like reading the article again, reading all your comments, and deciding what I think about each comment, but if I saw this post when looking at a board, I'd be like, okay, here we have some discussion about an article that people disagree with. No qualms here.

Just saying that the woman is a bitch, or hates men, or has shitty relationships - that's the toxic shit that drives women away.

And here's a thing. Let's say I start dating someone and we see a lady on TV who the dude doesn't agree with, and he starts saying how she's a man-hating bitch because he doesn't like her opinion. You think I'm gonna stick around? Of course not! It's only a matter of time until I would become that man-hating bitch for asking him to pick up his own dishes or something. It's indicative of a huge disrespect of others.

And if he's part of a group that mostly acts that way, I'm not gonna go through and try dating them all to find the people in that group that don't act like that. If it's accepted and not called out by the other men in the group as an issue, it's implicitly agreed to be an okay way to treat people. And many times, when the men have gross things to say, it's ignored - that is to say implicitly accepted.

But the more people say it, and read it, the more they believe it - and women aren't gonna want to get involved. So then it's, I'm a victim cuz the women don't give it up and I want them to, even while I'm treating them in completely disrespectful ways.

And I think that's where on the boards or whatever we run into this - maybe she doesn't make all good points, but the problem still exists, regardless.

Augustus
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:27 pm

I just don't agree that someone could be a dick (as a man) or a bitch (as a woman) and that they should get a free pass merely because of their chromosomal makeup. If they fall on the dickbitch continuum then THEY are the ones who are toxic, and should expect to be labeled as such. I realize that I am an outlier in the modern age.

You're defending a hit piece. Why? If she didn't write a hit piece I wouldn't be calling her a bitch. I already noted that I agree with many of her points about the MGTOW crowd, I just don't like hit pieces. They are unfair attacks meant to belittle people, and it's toxic, in the same way that 7w5's ex made an unfair attack on her, that lady made an unfair attack on this entire community. What does she expect?

Colibri
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Colibri » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:07 pm

prognastat wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:09 pm
JennyPenny, DutchGirl, Sclass, Chenda, EdithKeeler are all very active. Im sure there are many more either just not coming to mind or that don't indicate they are women in their name or posts.
I am a woman and actively pursuing ERE. Althought I don't post regurlarly, I come on the forum many times a week to read new posts. I love to lurk.

Just a side note on difficulties of finding a ERE compatible partner/mate :
I tried dating sites this winter for the first time ever in my life ( I am 31). I have been single since 2012, except for one very short relationship in 2014.
Met and dating that one guy for a couple of weeks now who is supposedly frugal and with whom I have a lot in commons (we like to do the same things). Everything seems to be fine until I mention I get my clothes for free at the local dump. And then it went cold turkey when he learned I have 3 paid for properties. The more he learn about my ERE lifestyle the more he retreats. I think we are not dating anymore actually... too bad, I really liked him.

Good luck finding compatible partners, NO MATTER YOUR GENDER !

prognastat
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:17 pm

Colibri wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:07 pm
Yeah, I think there's a definite delineation between just being frugal and being FIRE/ERE minded. When people hear frugal they think oh you're poor that's understandable, but if you had money you would be spending it. Then when they find out you are voluntarily frugal and could actually afford to spend that money it doesn't compute for them.

I guess maybe not outright lying about your more frugal behaviour, but rather just letting them come up as they naturally arise and hoping that you've built enough of a connection by the time they figure out your way of living to the point where they like you enough that they are willing to put in the effort to understand might work. Either that or get really lucky and find someone who is already into FIRE/ERE or very close.

Anything that puts you outside of what is considered the norm is going to make it a bit more difficult though.

prognastat
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Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:20 pm

Cats_and_tats wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:23 pm
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10500&p=185482&hilit=vice#p185482

Here's a guy criticising FIRE and forum members calling in to question his motives and a few ad hominems and no-one is in a hurry to defend the guy. You could say the general response from the forum was a lot lighter, but he was much less aggressive and offensive in his criticism so it makes sense that the response isn't as aggressive either. I have no doubt if he had attacked the community and major FIRE figures personal lives made accusations as serious as significant as sexism that the response would have been similarly harsh. In my book that isn't an indication of sexism and rather just how people respond when they feel they or someone they respect is being attacked. Not pretty, but also not surprising.

There's another topic today questioning whether Sam Harris is an idiot because he doesn't agree with the members personal beliefs.

I don't think that it came from a woman is really the reason for the hostility, but rather that it attacked people's for lack of a better word belief system, a role model(s)/leader(s), their community and their identity. People tend to lash out when those are threatened.

Suze Orman also go pretty heated backlash from the FIRE community, here not for accusations of sexism, but rather again the community feeling their belief systems, role models, community and identity being attacked.

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