Random Relationship Derailment Thread

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
Jason

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Jason »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:48 pm
@white belt: according to my gf, the New Orleans strip club (Hunk Oasis), is in need of male talent...
It begs the question, is there anything that captures the Renaissance ideal more than The Vitruvian Man shaking his money maker in order to retire early?

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6217
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am
Location: Clinton River Watershed

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@white belt:

I think there is some truth to what you are saying about mating markets, but it has been my experience that the highest level of interaction takes place in environments where there are approximately equal numbers and equal proportions of masculine and feminine energy present. For instance, when I attended an engineering school in a very rural location, even though there were many more men than women, I was rarely asked out on a date. During that same period of time, when I would take my semester and summer breaks in the large, more balanced, university center where my parents lived, I was asked out much more frequently. Quite possibly the same would hold true for a young man in a traditionally feminine setting.
crazylemon wrote:This really stuck out for me as I do a similar thing to my partner. Although more just getting the damn thing loaded. If there an approach that works and still gets the housework done withouts getting the, 'stop asking me to do things'? Beyond just doing more of it myself (which I sort of do anyway).
Well, grain of salt, because I am not an expert on MBTI, and I am only moderately P and extremely N, so it's more the detail
part of the "focus on detail" that gets to me. Also, I am a naturally messy, absent-minded person who has spent decades studying and developing systems to overcome these tendencies, so that I could function running a household and/or a business. So, I give the appearance of being a fairly neat, organized person.

So, for a P, the trick is to get the boring stuff you have to do on total auto-pilot. So, I can do the dishes as part of my morning or cooking routine without even thinking about it (almost as easily as I can walk into the kitchen and pour some coffee and eat 2 cookies without even thinking about it-lol.) But, it takes a while to get to auto-pilot on any given task, so it drives me crazy when somebody else's suggestion on how I might do it slightly better forces me to once again waste valuable attention on something so trivial. With two different J partners, I have had to say things like "Hello...I am an individual who cooked almost every meal for a family of 4 for two decades, so I think I can scramble an egg without your direction. Your choice is either get the f*ck out of the kitchen and let me do it my way or do all the cooking yourself!" IOW, sometimes Js need to brush up a bit on their delegation skills.

Anyways, I was trying to think of a way a J could get the information/control he or she needs in order to relax without overly imposing on P partner, such as myself. NJs and NPs are both very curious and future oriented, but Js are more "marching powerfully forward in a straight line towards mountain perspective" and Ps are more "exploring every side path at leisurely pace." So, if your partner is an NP, using the word "plan" won't be a problem. If your partner is also a fairly self-aware NP, using the word "focus" might even be appreciated. So, you could maybe engage your innate curiosity and ask your NP partner something like "What do you plan on focusing on today?" and then if, based on response, it seems reasonable, "Could you fit doing the dishes into your plan?"

Another factor to keep in mind is that Js are generally more "Work Hard/Play Hard" types and Ps are more "Make work fun. Make play pay." types, so it can be easy to underestimate the not-in-your-face overall productivity of a P, especially given the tendency of Js to often over-shoot the mark of optimum. For instance, my SJ partner was literally trying to tidy every twig on his wooded acreage until I pointed out the uselessness and impossibility of that task while refusing his demands to participate. My other J partner wanted me to help him develop even more rental properties even though he was already drawing more than adequate income from those we had already renovated together. That's why I pretty much don't believe most of the participants in this forum are ever going to truly "retire." It's not that easy to gear yourself down.

Fish
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:09 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Fish »

A magazine article which says JLF is “widely credited as the OG FIRE blogger”. Not sure it’s reliable enough to be a reference for his wiki page, but the rest of the article definitely belongs in this thread.
Also, like most spaces populated almost exclusively by male nerds, the FIRE community is both overtly and implicitly sexist. FIRE bloggers almost exclusively recommend the work of other men and ground their understanding of gender and social relations in armchair evolutionary psychology and Pick-Up Artist logic.
There are frequent gripes about the “spousal problem,” i.e., the difficulty frugal males have in finding women who want a life as austere as theirs. “Do any males here have trouble attracting women? I certainly do,” user methpearice asks in a FIRE forum, adding that women look down on him because he saves 85 percent of his income.
https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/fin ... -community

User avatar
Stahlmann
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:05 pm

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Stahlmann »

So I'm saying hello to everybody who thinks that being white male is "easy" and I don't have anything better to do than "abusing" women.

Recently I was in situation where older lady said to me "we don't have equality yet!".

As being poor tourist (wearing 10-15 yr jacket and sweat pants) who was thinking if buying cheapest bread and yoghurt will break my budget, the whole situation was a bit amusing.

Didn't make it to the end, but somebody should contact the lady for the good of fire movement.

Also, how have you found it, fish?

Lemon
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Lemon »

@7wb5 Thanks that gives me some things to try. Not sure if trying to improve a partnership (?optimise, ?over-optomise :? ) is necessarily healthy or not, even if primarily focusing on my actions. I hope it is

@Fish excellent find and it is true, although perhaps my only accusation is it being an excellent diagnosis with no treatment recommended. But maybe that is just me suffering from being too many Wheaton levels below on the ?relationship scale, along with I suspect most. No mention of LGBT+ relationships although I am aware that is a tiny subset of FIRE, although how small I don't know. But then I know plenty of gays who are so sexist ('cause they don't even need women to sleep with right? :? ) so it might not help the situation.
This is the most 'male' space I visit IRL or online. You can tell.

@Stahlman An individual situation is not the same as the overarching environment of society. The article is not talking about white men having it easy but FIRE environments having a near total male POV and then people being surprised that then translates in to poor hit rates with relationships. Then intellectualising this as expected and due to deficiency in other parties in an echo chamber environ.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6217
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am
Location: Clinton River Watershed

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Fish:

Having met JLF's better half in person, I think that article is more than a bit unfairly off-the-mark. Also, the forum link is depressing to me, because I was writing about relationship theory from the perspective of still being with my "ex", and now it is almost 5 years later, and I am contemplating breaking up with my current. Therefore, I am seriously NOT worthy of the resident relationship expert role Dragline wished to bestow on me in that thread.

@Crazylemon:

I think it is probably very good to optimize relationship, as long as that doesn't default to optimizing the human who is your relationship partner.
Also, I agree that this forum has very masculine energy, but dating a guy who hangs out here would still likely beat dating a guy who hangs out on Tumblr :lol:

Gilberto de Piento
Posts: 1531
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:23 pm

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Gilberto de Piento »

That article is quite the hatchet job. I'm not saying parts of it aren't true (FIRE really does seem to be male dominated, at least among gurus and forum members), but it seems to be trying to paint a picture that has very little support in order to create manufactured outrage.

prognastat
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 8:30 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat »

I think the lack of LGBT+ representation in the FIRE community is probably a combination of two main things, one being what you mentioned that when you intersect the percentage of LGBT+ in the general populace and the percentage of people interested in/with propensity for FIRE you end up with an extremely small percentage of people. Two they are probably more focused on other aspects of their lifestyle rather than wanting to advocate for FIRE.

As for the article it's so filled with bias, projections and contradictions that it went from annoying to kind of funny. Kind of like a so bad that it's good movie.

Cats_and_tats
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats »

That was an interesting article, and while the author was clearly exaggerating some things for comic effect, I don't really think she's wrong. Overall the community can be incredibly sexist, where pussy is seen as a commodity and women aren't treated as people.

I did have to laugh at the pick-up-artist line, as I actually read the pick-up-artist book, and there are times in the community where I read a post and think - pick-up-artist 101.

User avatar
unemployable
Posts: 523
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:36 am
Location: Homeless

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by unemployable »

Fucking men and their... shuffles deck... wanting to have money

Cats_and_tats
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats »

Augustus wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:18 am
I think there's a more overarching point. Many men are bad at relationships. Many women are bad at relationships. ... The lady who wrote the article is obviously bad with relationships IMO, that's why she hates men and writes ridiculous things, it's a defense mechanism, otherwise she would feel shitty for having bad experiences with men.
I don't agree. I don't see anything that indicates she's bad at relationships. I am great at relationships, and I agree with a lot of what she said. A lot of people in the community treat women like a commodity to be acquired like money is to be acquired, and women that don't agree with how amazing the men think they are are all bitches. Like men who think they are the 'nice guys' who are actually creeps.

It isn't about being angry at men for wanting to have money, it's about treating other people like they aren't real people. It's about deciding anyone else's desires or needs are stupid or unimportant. And that anyone who doesn't kowtow to the most extreme FIRE ideas suck, even though it takes anyone getting into it time to adjust. I don't see where her personal relationship, which you don't actually know, has anything to do with it.

Lemon
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Lemon »

I don't approve of the never helpful ad hominem elements of the article. Likewise ad hominems at the author are unhelpful.

But pointing out the FIREsphere is male dominated and regularly has people complaining about (lack of) relationships is fair.
Then pointing out this community tends to look for internal advice for solutions which all come from a male POV. This can include strategies that are sub optimal for multiple reasons, and can be sexist.
I think it is valuable for then suggesting looking elsewhere might provide more effective ways to have success in relationship building. Or, alternatively, trying to make parts of the FIREsphere areas where women feel more comfortable existing and commenting.

@C&T exactly.

User avatar
Stahlmann
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:05 pm

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Stahlmann »

[in case you're pesky journalist who is interested in destroying somebody's career, at least contact Stahlmann personally to get his current views on intra gender relationships]
Last edited by Stahlmann on Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Cats_and_tats
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats »

I don't think she does hate men, and pointing out issues in a community isn't the same thing.

Saying her viewpoint is stupid and incorrect and she hates men and her relationships are bad - you are just reinforcing what she is saying.

There was a recent thread of someone saying how they have more success with women when you start relationships by lying to them, and many people were like, oh, great idea, whatever gets you that pussy. But I can guarantee if a lady started the relationship with lies and got found out and it was posted about here, everyone would be saying how all women are liars and garbage and cheats, etc.

I totally agree with @crazylemon above - if everyone having the same issue in a group and only talks to each other, they won't find the answers there.

Cats_and_tats
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats »

You didn't say she was wrong, you said she hates men and has bad relationships, neither of which you have proof of, and is not actually addressing any of her arguments.

She said the space is sexist, and you said she hates men and has bad relationships, which are sexist assumptions which prove her point that the space is sexist, and do nothing to refute her arguments.

If the only way you know how to disagree with someone is making up things about what you think about them personally, and not addressing anything they actually say, I will have to agree with you that you've been disagreeing with people incorrectly for a long time.

Cats_and_tats
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Cats_and_tats »

Okay, we can be more pedantic, if you want.

"You didn't say she was {ONLY} wrong, you said she hates men and has bad relationships, neither of which you have proof of, and is not actually addressing any of her arguments."

But if you agree it is a cult, how do cults treat non-members? Not well, yeah? But when she points it out, it's a hit piece written by a bitch? If your definition is a bitch is someone who disagrees with something you believe, that seems like an issue. I like lots of people who have views I disagree with. That doesn't make them bitches. But I haven't seen you actually have an argument against anything she actually said, other than name-calling and making up ideas about her personal life because you felt offended that she disagreed with you.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6217
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am
Location: Clinton River Watershed

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

This thread is starting to give me a flashback to my sex-starved marriage therapy group. I never knew whether to side with the low-sex drive partners who were mostly women or the high-sex drive partners who were mostly men. Can we all just agree that humans of either gender who are total nerds and semi-desperate to get laid are kind of unappealing?

For instance, in retrospect, it is possible that it was not best practice when I told my was-band (IxFx), "I have lost 25 lbs, and my waist-to-hip ratio is now well below .75, so that means that any normal man would want to have sex with me." To which he replied, " You are too nerdy to f*ck." MY INFP sister also once told me that I am so dorky if I was a man I would never get laid. Thus, my empathy for the young men who are similarly situated and subject to intermittent haranguing by sensitive, hoping to be authentically and uniquely validated, F-types of either gender.

@Augustus:

Likely that the wife of my former ENFP polyamorous partner still hates me, but not my fault that she agreed to open contract with a man who had innate tendencies towards "romantic" and "wishy-washy." Also, I do not love J.Bozo, although I do feel sympathy for the highly typical mid-life male problems he revealed very clearly that he is suffering from in his made-public sexting.

prognastat
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 8:30 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat »

Well let's see:

- Complains that FIRE bloggers don't recognise the difficulties that uniquely challenge women in FI then complains about a quote of JLF explicitly calling out that things are more difficult for women. Also despite with every other point where there might be a user comment that emphasizes the way she is trying to paint the community here she fails to bring up the women responding to this very point in the comments that this is largely a problem caused by other women.
- Complains about the FIRE space having sexist gender stereotypical ideas of gender dynamics, yet repeatedly judges the big bloggers for their sense of style which would be behaviour matching what those she is complaining about would say women do.
- She doesn't have a single good thing to say in the whole article about the community or the "leaders", this doesn't really make it seem like the feedback comes from a place of someone caring about the FIRE community.
- Big Bloggers are defensive about being accused they are the cause of the composition of the community by them indicating these are universal principles that would be effective for either gender. Very much like your response about disagreeing with the author being indicative of the problem she constructs a no win situation where either you agree you are part of the problem or you disagree indicating you are part of the problem.
- Associating words as if they are manoshpere words(Complainypants/Badassity) when they simply aren't. Just another way to try to make it seem like there is some pernicious overlap without actually providing any proof.
- Incel is another buzzword thrown in just for good measure with no indication of any real link, but this way we can paint the community even more in the negative light. I mean Incels hate women and there have been a few recently that became mass shooters so it's a good accusation to throw at anyone you don't like.
- She judges JLF for posting a "sardonic, sexist video about marriage". Though really it seems like it's more a sarcastic take on the mainstream middle class life.
- Pretty much tries to paint a picture of JLF and MMM(an I'm sure this is supposed to extend to the whole community) as being misleading about their relationships being egalitarian and really they are just living it up while their wives are busy cooking, cleaning and popping out babies as they ought to do...(just in case I'm going to point out I'm being sarcastic)

Also though I disagree that pick-up/MGTOW arguments are even common in the community, even if they do sometimes come up. Most FIRE bloggers and their communities are extremely left wing and actually are quick to block such discussion and ban those that bring it up(a complaint she also has that discussions about gender are often banned, when generally they are banned to prevent people from talking about pick-up/MGTOW ideas not hers). I would say it definitely isn't common with the big bloggers, most try to avoid it at all cost. The ERE forums actually stand out in that this discussion isn't outright banned though JLF obviously isn't fond of it. The fact though that this alone makes this forum stand out says a lot about the perception of Pick-Up/MGTOW/Manosphere/whatever buzzword you want to add among most of the FIRE community. They aren't accepted.

TL;DR
Complains about the FIRE community stereotyping women in sexist ways, but doesn't realise she is doing this very same thing to men/the FIRE community by taking a few discussions that make up a minor part of the community and extrapolating it to the whole.
Last edited by prognastat on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lemon
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by Lemon »

@Augustus

I can agree that what she has written about certain individuals is not very nice and is almost certainly filled with some half truths/exargerations for either comedic or outrage generating effects. This does not invalidate all other points.

It is more specifically the parts of the article that Fish quoted that are worth looking at closely. This is a male dominated space that probably has a higher than average level of relationship issues. In basically all men. Is it not plausible that this might then lead to as you describe 'defence mechanisms' which could be sexist?

Yes women and men can BOTH have relationships issues. The point that is of value from the article is in the FIREsphere this is only really seen from the male perspective. It doesn't matter if you dislike the person bringing it up if it addresses an issue that with worth looking at trying to fix.

@Stahlmann
As you say, top 30%. Does that make 70% of women invisible? Also constant attention and attempts to flirt/initiate relationships don't have zero cost to an individual. Declining a man without bruising an ego is tough. Even being a probably average gay man I have had enough unwanted male attention to be able to say it can be unpleasant. Being an attractive women with all the power dynamics that can involve is probably like turning that up to 11. It isn't only one side that has issues.

@7wb5 Nah they just have to find other horny nerds of the relevant gender. At least anecdotally.

prognastat
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 8:30 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Random Relationship Derailment Thread

Post by prognastat »

@Crazylemon
She pretty much paints both JLF and MMM as outright sexists heading a sexist movement/community. A place where men need to be men and women need to be women.

Post Reply