And the award for most anti-ERE family goes to...

[unemployable]

https://www.wealthsimple.com/en-us/maga ... le-debt-us

I don't know where to start. It's like they're trying to maximize expenses and complexity while minimizing life return... and they're still at it.

[TheRedHare]

wow, talk about stressful living. I actually feel very sorry for them, but at the same time they really seemed to do it to themselves. When they mentioned how one of their mothers gave them 20k of her life savings after saving her 30k salary for so many years...I was like...you people really don't deserve that.

[IlliniDave]

Yeesh. My married years were a scaled down version of that, probably exactly where we'd have been if I'd have had the same financial personality as my ex-. Just skimming through the article rekindles a lot of the angst and hopelessness I went through. What's missing from the two of them is that spark anger and determination to change--right out of Ramsey's playbook. You have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired. They are still one sick and tired short.

[Seppia]

This must not be true right? It has to be some sort of fabrication to clickbait the fire community.
I stopped reading at the dogs

[jennypenny]

I know a lot of families like the one in the article. They aren't even that bad -- no extravagant vacations, mommy makeovers, or similar expenditures that I could tell. They're just doing what they think they are 'supposed' to be doing for their kids. I'm not absolving them because they obviously understand their situation. They just don't seem to mind it as long as they can keep it up. They still value their lifestyle more than financial security, so while they'd like to be in a better financial position, they don't feel too much pressure to change their ways.

I'd say their situation is pretty normal. Depressing (to me), but normal.

[Scott 2]

I got tired just reading all their spending. Keeping up on it must be exhausting.

When the hole is that big, and your kids are used to the lifestyle, changing must feel impossible. I'm not even sure it's the most rational choice.

[thegreatvoid]

Like the catholic Church selling fear of hell to people back in medieval europe. Invest with us and you'll Go to Heaven. Fake

[Tyler9000]

I think the saddest thing is that something so hyperbolically terrible is still believable.

I do find their aversion to bankruptcy interesting. On the one hand it's pretty much their only path out of a lot of that debt. But on the other, once you're so dependent on credit I can understand the terror of being cut off. They sound like addicts.

[Laura Ingalls]

I half expected it to be about actually relatives.

They actually make both my perpetually broke family members look pretty solvent.

We each have one sibling/sibling in law pair is a bit of a train wreck. One that is big shovel, even bigger expenses (big mortgage, leased cars, large blended family with 5 teenagers).

The other has basically a little shovel, on the receiving end of Lots of economic outpatient care, and spend waaay too much on trivial cr@p like shopping, manicures and highlights, and horseback riding lesson (I swear it was selected because it was the most expensive kid activity that could be found.)

I’m a bit curious how the future will play out in the long term. I think the first is in better shape as their kids look more likely to be self sufficient adults. More of a pig in the python problem.

I suspect the other may tap out their generous and admittedly affluent parents and be shocked how little is left at their passing. Not sure I would bank on a large inheritance from your in-laws to fund retirement if your mother in law’s mother lived to 95 and your dad died at 75 and your 20 years apart.

[unemployable]

I won't dismiss the possibility it's fake. Basically every decision they made compounded the mistakes of previous bad decisions; I guess that train is easy to fabricate.

What the hell is a "graduate degree in advertising", anyway? If it were an MBA, he'd say it's an MBA.

This people, if they do exist, do not seem to be the target market for that site's services, which seem to be some sort of roboadvised para-401k. Certainly it was written partly with the goal of making the people who *are* the target market feel good about themselves, but if you're already at Wheaton Level 2 or 3 that won't be necessary.

[Lillailler]

Would it be wrong to laugh at this?
If the story is true, the bad thing is to borrow / take from grandma. Otherwise they have a big income and could clean themselves up with a few years of dialling back wasted spending. It's about the tension between 1) working like a dog and making lots of money, 2) spending it all and more, and 3) feeling short of money. They seem to be completely lacking in insight.
Last question, Do Wheaton levels go into negative numbers?

[7Wannabe5]

I agree this is very common. Not even approaching the dregs of poor financial functioning. The worst cases I know of involve couples who are both spend-thrift, having marital difficulties, and fighting with money, as opposed to fighting about money. She goes on shopping spree in New York, he counters by buying a boat, etc. etc. The mid-50s husband I knew from one of these marriages ended up sleeping in his car for a week, because he didn't even have enough credit to rent a motel room after particularly bad fight, even though he was a high-level automotive engineer easily making over 6 figures and his wife was almost as well paid in the medical field.

Also, I think somebody who is good at finance, but uses their powers for evil, would be better designated as the anti-ERE.

[unemployable]

Last question, Do Wheaton levels go into negative numbers?

Sure. I'd say negative would be an income of $0 and depending entirely on outside sources for the income to fund one's lifestyle -- government welfare programs, sugar daddies, legal settlements. Any sort of financial fraud and hoping/planning for some sort of bailout would count too.

[Laura Ingalls]

Sure. I'd say negative would be an income of $0 and depending entirely on outside sources for the income to fund one's lifestyle -- government welfare programs, sugar daddies, legal settlements. Any sort of financial fraud and hoping/planning for some sort of bailout would count too.

Not sure I agree that non-fraudulent outside sources equal low Wheaton level. If someone one legitimately qualifies for a program ie SNAP and spends two hours per year to applying and collecting documentation and gets $150 per person per month that’s a very good return on his or her time.

I personally would find them way more resourceful and efficient than buying a tux with your Nordstrom’s card because your MasterCard was maxed out and you had no cash to rent a tux.

[tonyedgecombe]

I think education loans probably started us on this path

Society has done a huge disservice to this generation by encouraging them to become so indebted when they are barely adults.

[unemployable]

Not sure I agree that non-fraudulent outside sources equal low Wheaton level. If someone one legitimately qualifies for a program ie SNAP and spends two hours per year to applying and collecting documentation and gets $150 per person per month that’s a very good return on his or her time.

That misses the point, as the money for food stamps has to come from somewhere, namely, you and me. Leaving aside the issue of the people swiping their EBT cards with one hand whole holding an iPhone in the other.

Or turn the argument around: Can the lifestyle of someone at a high Wheaton level include government assistance? How is that financial independence?

I don't count US social security as you very generally get out what you pay in.

Fraud's an even better return on your time as long as you don't get caught, but is that what we want to encourage?

[7Wannabe5]

depending entirely on outside sources for the income

By definition, "income" depends on an outside source.

I agree with Laura, the Underclass Hustler has a lot more in common with an E-track hustler* than might be apparent to those with middle-class G2/W2 sensibilities. As, the WSPs say "Bend the rules, just don't break the law."

*My friend who is worth close to 100 million accepts the auto-pilot assistance he gets for his over-priced prescription drug. I asked him about it, and he just shrugged and said "The pharmaceutical companies have to over-charge the insurance programs to make their profit, so you have to apply for the assistance to get the right price."

Also, the SNAP program is really just the visible tip of the iceberg of the overwhelming dysfunctional welfare state that is our agricultural system. For instance, the government price props for corn are pretty much a direct Kaching! free flow of taxpayer funds into the coffers of Archer Daniels Midland. And, I do not know how many times I have advised the young men on this forum that if they want a cut of the sugar-baby market, they just need to take some ballroom dancing lessons, so they can swing wealthy old women in spangly dresses around the floor and make them feel pretty.

[CS]

... and their kids will be able to go to all sorts of fancy colleges for cheap.

Holy cow, what a horrible life.

[Laura Ingalls]

@unemployable
I don’t think it is totally black and white. Take two combat veterans with full disability ratings. One might spend the entire amount every month on mind altering substances and be homeless. The other might be engaged in activities very beneficial to society (raising children, caring for elderly parents, helping other in his/her community, growing a big garden) and live a modest, financial stable lives.

I’m not going to begrudge anyone that qualifies for SNAP getting it until we stop corporate welfare and huge farm subsidies. I have family members that made 6 figures in 2018 and got a solid 5 figures in farm subsidies.

You could argue it deminishes the ERE “brand” and people shouldn’t do it. I guess theoretically you can be FI and on assistance if your still FI if the assistance disappeared overnight.

[Laura Ingalls]

... and their kids will be able to go to all sorts of fancy colleges for cheap.

Holy cow, what a horrible life.

Actually, they are pretty screwed on the FAFSA front and I suspect they will get way less aid than they do currently for their private k-12. In other words their overspending it set to accelerate.