Getting Divorced.

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Peanut
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by Peanut » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:50 am

Defining success down to include failure seems to be a prevalent trend these days with respect to marriage. I see it a lot but I don’t think I buy it. It should be easy to make a marriage work after many years together if the initial choice was a good one. The typical statements about uncoupling that mention what a loving process it was also seem patently disingenuous.

The end of Bezos’ marriage is super sketchy. To me it looks like a big mistake and I’ll sell my AMZN if he marries the new woman.

iopsi
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by iopsi » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:46 pm

Another evidence that marriage is (in general, there are always exceptions ofc) an obsolete institution.
Also i've seen too many men (in my family and outside) pretty much sacrificing their lives and health for a woman (and for their own over-consumption too tbh). Heck even one my younger friends is fucked up because he made a bad choice (involving a girl).
And i think that if it wasn't for getting laid and having "status", many men wouldn't care about buying many of the shit they generally buy.

@Jacob

Yeah but that is true only if both people are at the same wheaton level about relationships. If one is at a certain level and she isn't, there will be problems. There is no obvious way to find a person at the same level or willing to grow on the levels with you (clearly the fact that a girl accepts marriage doesn't necessarily mean that she is at the right stage yet, if she ever will).

jacob
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by jacob » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:12 pm

It still takes two to say "I do" and lower Wheaton levels are easily identifiable from above, so just stay away from those cases. Don't marry anyone who has not leveled up to the marrying stage (4) yet. It might be better if there would be a period of "joining" before marrying (this would also allow one to see if a less mature partner is able to catch up), just like there is/can be a period of "separating" before divorce. I think that would prevent a lot of problems.

FWIW, I do think that marriage is fading in importance as an institution as it gets replaced with other ways of living and planning, but until that is fully implemented, official state recognition has its benefits.

Augustus
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by Augustus » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:27 pm

jacob wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:12 pm
FWIW, I do think that marriage is fading in importance as an institution as it gets replaced with other ways of living and planning, but until that is officially so, official state recognition has its benefits.
The one main aspect legal marriage helps is kids IMO. The first 2-3 years of kids are really hard, losing half your wealth and the prospect of a miserable legal process is a really strong incentive to make it work. A lot of the time you really just need to keep going for a while until you acclimate to your new life post kid, then you realize a knee jerk divorce would have been stupid. I read somewhere that single parents are the main indicator of a child being raised in poverty, which makes a lot of sense, because not only do kids require more resources, but they prevent a single parent from getting ahead due to time constraints.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:33 pm

No relationship is perfect and it seems to me that there is much about long marriages akin to hammering a square peg into a round hole.

It would also seem that strong family units are the foundation of strong communities, clans, tribes, and states. It is no surprise that as family values have receded, so has the sense of community.

Painful divorce settlements are a pretty strong disincentive to marry. But now individuals are more “free.”

Would you rather have a strong community, and get ostracized/shamed/burned at the stake for being divorced or having sex out of wedlock?
OR
Would you rather have sexual relationships without strings or condemnation, but in the context of a fragmented society?

The law of compensation- nothing is free.

“Everyone belongs to everyone else.”
-Alduous Huxley’s Brave New World

Be careful what you wish for.

Jean
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by Jean » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:36 pm

People are retreating to communities and the free world is disolving.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:43 pm

I see the opposite. Family values in the Western world have collapsed and the State has seized upon the opportunity to predate on isolated individuals.

Great for the outlier individuals, bad for the community.

TopHatFox
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by TopHatFox » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:51 pm

Meanwhile in apocalyptia-ERE forums...yeah, pretty much. I'd say it's completely accurate that traditional values have gone by the wayside and that the only way to find kinship is to live in an intentional community or create it. Like, I literally have to explain to my gf that a relationship is where two people come together and mutually support each other, as opposed to the default of two people pretending to not care about one another. I'd further agree that companies are taking advantage of the atomization of our mainstream communities in major cities. I'm just hoping the whole system doesn't collapse before I've had my fill of FIREing & traveling.

---------------

Interesting aside, what about the prospect of raising a kid on your own after FIRE? You wouldn't have to work and don't have the risk of custody issues, and you don't really need to educate the kid completely on your own (there are mentors, online education platforms, etc).

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:53 pm

Thinking about Bezos, globalization and marital problems brought me to reread Chapter XVII of D.H. Lawrence’s Women in Love, “The Industrial Magnate.”

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4240/424 ... htm#chap17

Optimal_Solution
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by Optimal_Solution » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:00 pm

@TopHatFox

From my limited experience: child rearing is exhausting and challenging for a single individual even if that person has no work obligations. I have no idea how low-income single moms survive the stress. It is crucial to have a community of support. Spouses, grandparents, neighbors, faith communities, etc. are hugely impactful on the wellbeing of the parent(s).

IlliniDave
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:44 pm

I don't have a lot of room to say much. I tried my best and after 16 years, poof. As a single dad with de-facto full custody for a few years, I agree it's really difficult.

I'm sure Bezos and his future ex- will be fine. It's a miserable process and like Mister Imperceptible said upthread, it is a pretty substantial disincentive when it comes to trying again. I'm pretty stubborn about my independence now, understand it wouldn't really be reasonable to expect a Mrs iDave 2.0 to be content with that, so seems best to stay clear of circumstances that could lead to such eventualities. Well, that plus the fact that women don't dig me anymore. I got no game left it seems, ha!

Jason
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by Jason » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:09 am

Jeff Bezos is a dead ringer for my dentist.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:25 am

IlliniDave wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:44 pm
There must be a woman out there who is done with marriage, and she would like nothing better than to be holed up a remote northwoods cabin with mindful zen iDave, enjoying a freshly caught fish and a glass of wine while listening to the soft melodies of......Rush.

Augustus
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by Augustus » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:11 pm

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:25 am
There must be a woman out there who is done with marriage, and she would like nothing better than to be holed up a remote northwoods cabin with mindful zen iDave, enjoying a freshly caught fish and a glass of wine while listening to the soft melodies of......Rush.
I think you actually outdid Jason on that one!

ZAFCorrection
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by ZAFCorrection » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:45 pm

Augustus wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:27 pm
The one main aspect legal marriage helps is kids IMO. The first 2-3 years of kids are really hard, losing half your wealth and the prospect of a miserable legal process is a really strong incentive to make it work. A lot of the time you really just need to keep going for a while until you acclimate to your new life post kid, then you realize a knee jerk divorce would have been stupid. I read somewhere that single parents are the main indicator of a child being raised in poverty, which makes a lot of sense, because not only do kids require more resources, but they prevent a single parent from getting ahead due to time constraints.
That seems to be an under-emphasized issue in some recent discussions of allocating assets post divorce. Realistically, even in supposedly egalitarian households the woman ends up doing the majority of the housework/caregiving. In the case of divorce it is only fair that that added value is compensated. Speaking from personal experience, dealing with multiple 0-5 year olds can be a nightmare for long stretches of time.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:54 pm

Just read that Jeff Bezos is getting divorced... not even being the richest man on earth, will prevent your wife from leaving you.
Announced on the very same day that I decided to let bygones be bygones and renew my business relationship with him! Coincidence?

@jacob:

I would note that even Level 5 of your model keeps an individual, or a couple, firmly within the "cave", or climbing up the rungs of modern Western semi-secular relationship structure. That's why analogy to growing within the institution of "career" is valid. Also, even relationships of quite short acquaintance tend more towards cozy domesticity the older those "dating" become. For instance, I think I have been served homemade soup by a man-over-50 I was dating at least 40X more often than I have been taken out to anything resembling the sort of club frequented by the WSP crowd :lol:

That said, divorce does suck, and it doesn't ever stop sucking. Now that my DD27 has established her own household, I will be experiencing more shared holidays with my ex. On Thanksgiving we gave each other a sad sort of half hug at parting. There's nobody else on the planet who shares as many memories of my kids with me; "Hey, remember when DS30 used to sing into a banana with a diaper on his head?" Twenty years is a huge chunk of time for anyone to invest in anything. Yet, I have never regretted my decision to divorce for more than a moment of two on a very bad day afterwards, so...?

Then there's my second "marriage" under Islamic terms, which I also don't regret ending, even though I seriously doubt I will ever find another partner with whom I will be as sexually compatible (sigh.)

Now I am living with one of my former polyamorous partners, another claims to still be in love with me although he promise his wife not to have sex with me, and I am legal project/property partners with the third who still tries to hit it with me, and I can't totally break up with any of them.

Anyways, I have decided that I am married to the region of the planet I have mostly stuck with for most of my life, because it was good enough not to leave.

jacob
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by jacob » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:31 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:54 pm
I would note that even Level 5 of your model keeps an individual, or a couple, firmly within the "cave", or climbing up the rungs of modern Western semi-secular relationship structure. That's why analogy to growing within the institution of "career" is valid.
Well, that is the framework in which marriage/divorce is currently defined, so ...

Incidentally, I agree that the analogy holds: http://earlyretirementextreme.com/break ... areer.html

Augustus
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by Augustus » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:37 pm

ZAFCorrection wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:45 pm
Agree on everything except the woman doing all the work. That's probably the more common arrangement and foisted on women by societal norms, but in my household for example it's the opposite. I was the one who wanted kids and cajoled my wife into it, she's got a super short temper, so I usually end up doing most of the child rearing to avoid melt downs. Not all women actually want children, or want to take care of them all the time. I'm sure there are other men out there in the same boat. I'm pretty sure that most courts would shaft me in that aspect, and assume my wife is the primary care giver by default.

ZAFCorrection
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by ZAFCorrection » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:59 pm

I should have been more specific. I just meant that women do most of the at-home work on average. Of course there are outliers. Same is true for who has the money in the household. And it would be good if all courts took a more nuanced and individualized view, as should people participating in "Battle of the Sexes" style conversations.

Augustus
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Re: Getting Divorced.

Post by Augustus » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:39 pm

+1

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