Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

[7Wannabe5]

I think maybe there is some level of validity to some of the complaints of the white male community, so I started fretting a bit about my own son who just turned 30. He is a tall, white, skinny, long-haired, nerdy guy INTP who doesn't own a car, has almost exactly median income, and drinks alone a bit too much. So, I brought up the topic on a recent road trip I took with him and his response was "That's just p*ssy sh*t." *

*His free use of foul language is not to be mistaken for misogyny. When he was a toddler, I frequently left him in the care of his father who had the habit of playing Henry Rollins albums full-blast.

[Jean]

@seppia, totally agree, but then, why can't we Say that if women earn less, it's because they choose less lucrative carreers. Mgtow aren't complaining, theyre just leaving the game.

[The Old Man]

@Seppia and @thegreatvoid

When I first heard about MGTOW, I thought it was crazy. Afterwards, I have come around to the idea that it is a rational decision for a person in this modern world (although bad for society).

[CS]

@seppia, totally agree, but then, why can't we Say that if women earn less, it's because they choose less lucrative carreers.

Not true on choosing less lucrative careers as the reason why they earn less. The pay discrepancy is found in the same work fields and the same exact jobs. I believe people should know what their peers are making as a way to get rid of this problem.

I'm a heterosexual male and I personally find the way some on this board talk about women to be more than borderline insulting - I sure oversimplified and I'm sorry, but I would suggest you try to be a bit more aware about what kind of image you are projecting.

Yes

[The Old Man]

I don't believe being older is an advantage for a man, but I do believe it is a disadvantage for a woman.

It is a night and day difference for a man being 22 (after college) and being 30. Some of this is because women prefer older men, but I believe most of this is because it allows more time for a man to develop "gravitas".

[The Old Man]

Not true on choosing less lucrative careers as the reason why they earn less. The pay discrepancy is found in the same work fields and the same exact jobs. I believe people should know what their peers are making as a way to get rid of this problem.

Do you have a cite? While less lucrative fields, I also thought time out of the workforce for maternity was also a major factor. I did hear though that about ~5% of the pay gap can be explained through poor salary negotiation skills.

[Jean]

@CS I agree with your solution, because it would allow everyone to see that your statement is wrong. Why would anyone pay more for the same prestation?

[slsdly]

I think in years gone by, I blamed women for my lack of success with women. Online dating coloured by perspective, telling me they all want things I don't care for, like travel, dogs, a house. To a certain extent, that is true. However now that I'm older and somewhat more wiser, it was just a way to ignore my own deep insecurities. I've had plenty of opportunities that I denied were possible, that the date went terrible and the signals were just lies, even when in retrospect, they were all but throwing themselves at my feet. Anxiety and depression comorbidity, but also high functioning, so nobody notices until they try to get close to me, and are left wondering why I pull away hard. I can't speak for anyone else but I actually prefer it to be my problem. That's something I can work on. There are many problems outside my control -- I don't set the social norms around relationships, I don't write the laws around divorce, I can't control her bitter friends sabotaging us. I'm certainly a little frustrated and sad about those, and I see a growing likelihood I will always be single, but I'm glad I avoided the MGTOW train.

[jacob]

Okay, thanksgiving time, so I'll take a break from the forum.

I'm preemptively locking this thread down. Might open it again after the holidays.

[TopHatFox]

Its interesting, of all the women I dated, or even close friends I made in college, like maybe a handful reach out just two-years out. I know this phenomenon is normal because I’ve asked my remaining close friends. Same shit happened in high school, and by now I only know of 1 person currently that I went to high school with. They’re off somewhere struggling silentingly (some dead), or holding down fancy consulting jobs, or doing some fellowship in SE Asia, or teaching Harlem NYC kids that there are places with better socioeconomic outcomes, or going to grad school somewhere. Hell, some even have gotten married or are doing the AT.

It makes me wonder, what was the point of forming meaningful friendships and relationships? I do have great memories, but damn, I might as well have worked more since the money i saved up then is still helping me live well now. If close friends or relationships are going to fizzle out so quickly after the « friends of convenience » period is over, then isn’t the idea of friends for life bullshit? The follow up question is what does that mean for current friends or lovers - should we simply make the most of them until they inevitably disappear, only to have to be replaced by the next crop? Or choose to live in a community where people tend not to leave? (if the people don’t leave, the friends of convenient period never ends)

Call it the Law of Social Attrition or something lol.

——-

also, I can open my jaw a whole 3 mm now. I managed to squeeze in an M&M.

[7Wannabe5]

I think that maybe you are suffering from some false notion that social relationships work on a very even-handed tit-for-tat one-to-one basis. If you call somebody then they should call you back within X hours, and if you were the one to extend an invitation last week, then they should extend an invitation this week, etc. etc. This is only rarely true. Generally, one individual has to take the lead until force of habit is established. So, in the situation of school or work, it is the administration or ownership who takes on the responsibility of extending invitation, thereby establishing the basis for relationship of convenience.

In reference to the original topic, I would note from the perspective of an averagely attractive female that it is not unusual for a man to attempt communication or extend invitation 10 or more times in the face of no response or even negative response or over a long course of time. For instance, the females in my family were working in the kitchen and laughing about how often old boyfriends use Thanksgiving as an opportunity to reach out (my sister and I had both been pinged that morning, and my DD27 had been pinged the previous year.) Although somewhat predictable, this isn't necessarily a bad strategy. Sometimes the circumstances of a woman's life will render her functioning in relationship to a man or men in general, to be kind of like a pop-up restaurant. If you happen to reach out to an old lover on the Thanksgiving that falls two months after the birth of her first child with her second husband, she might not respond at all. If it is the Thanksgiving that she is barely even celebrating because she is so stressed out attempting to complete the requirements for her PhD, she might just text something terse. But, if you catch her on a Thanksgiving when she is relaxed and free of other commitments, who knows?

[Jason]

Stuff the good ole' turkey on Thanksgiving and then unwrap something new on Christmas. Makes sense.

[7Wannabe5]

@Jason:

Lol- I would note that the Thanksgiving morning reach-out is not exactly the same vibe as the Drunk at Midnight reach-out, and the likelihood of receiving the first over the second increases with age. My DD27 is the sort of old-fashioned nerdy girl who bakes cookies and weaves items on looms for her BFs, so she is an early recipient.

Also, it's funny how sometimes when a man closes his note with "I will write again.", it can come off as confident rather than desperate.

[Jason]

I would note that the Thanksgiving morning reach-out is not exactly the same vibe as the Drunk at Midnight reach-out

This might be attributable to the fact that with regard to the former, sitting back on the couch and loosening one's belt, if not merely permissible, is oftentimes encouraged.

[C40]

I recently heard something interesting about custody granting:

There were big labor law changes back in, uhh, whenever it was. Before that change, custody was mostly granted to MEN. Then, there were laws about how much children could work. And, over time, they were being expected to go to school longer. As more years of a child's life shifted from asset to liability, custody was awarded more to mothers.




Ok, now, on the subject of the thread. First, you have the question worded wrong. It's not a CIS related bubble. It's a "women in their 20s" bubble. Second, the answer is NO. It's not going to pop. You need to accept it. Don't complain about it not being fair. Deal with it.

Also, your perception and expectations were likely shifted by being in a very specific bubble you've described during college, where the students exist in literal social bubbles with mostly just other students. Back in college you had men and women grouped together - all within a small age range and a small geographic area. And in your college, with people giving many guidelines about how you're allowed to act. You were in a "fairness bubble".

Well... you can only try to force fairness for so long. And that fairness bubble has popped. Now, "you're in the real world". You're with the big dogs now.

Understand this, and stop thinking that it isn't fair. It probably actually IS fair. In the world of man-woman balances, no single parts are 50-50. The women your age have just entered into a small part of their lives where they get way better than 50-50 (in some aspects, mate choice being the one we're discussing here).


I've posted these charts here before for young men posing basically the same questions. Look:







Now, also consider that within overall mate desirability, men place more emphasis than women on physical attractiveness. Women have more balanced considerations. They consider other factors than "is he hot?". These mostly fall into these categories: is he safe (will he not hurt me?), would he be a good provider?, does he have good genes?, would he be a good long-term partner for me? (is he funny, does he make me feel good? will I not get bored with him?..).


Men fall much more to the side of the scale we could describe as "oh man, that girl is hot. I want to be able to fuck her every day". So.. look at the chart above. Who do men want to fuck every day? It's the women your age. These women have just left the college bubble where they were hanging out with college guys like you, and now they are out in the real world. Playing with the big dogs. The 30 year old guys want them. These 30 year old guys are like you except they've had more years to sort themselves out. They have more money (well...). They have more career success. They're better with women. They've learned what works. They're still good looking. They have everything you have, plus 5-10 more years of improvement. And there's the 40 year old with more life experience and maybe way more income. Oh, and there's that 50 year old guy that is partner at a law firm or CEO somewhere... he just got on TRT and is doing crossfit and he now has the same sex drive and virility as you.

So all these single men age 20-60 are going for the women in their 20s. The men your age - the little male foxes in their 20s - are suddenly out of the "college fairness bubble" and suddenly in the "all the men want a 23 year old girlfriend" bubble. The little foxes are now competing with the wolves. Of course, some of the women are picking wolves. Why would they want a little fox?

That's the bubble. That's how life works. A lot of this is likely tied to thousands of generations of evolution, and now there are also tons of social norms build around that.

- - - - - - -

It can be tough when it feels like the rules suddenly change. Or when it doesn't seem fair. Your response is important. Are you going to yell out "THAT'S NOT FAIR!", grab your ball, and go home?** Or are you going to keep playing the game, have fun with it, and learn how to win?

** = join the red pill / MGTOW / whatever it's called now side? You can see some of the guys here did that. Often their reason is basically "it's not fair...". First, having fairness all the time is not even a real thing. Second, dudes thinking things aren't fair is likely a symptom of poor understanding/empathy. There are also many reasons why things aren't fair for 23 year old women. Heck, go ponder at that first above from the perspective of a 45 year old female. Something sure ain't fair for her.


This isn't all black and white. In a world full of grey areas, you can still win. You are absolutely not limited to 4s. ERE is a good example of being able to win in a world where work and money totally suck for most.

[7Wannabe5]

@C40:

I agree with most* of what you posted, but it doesn't explain why I have had great luck with dating in my 40s and 50s in the Midwest market.

*The fact that the graphs only go up to age 50 is kind of hilarious, because I would estimate that right around age 52 is the point of steep decline for male attractiveness and virility. When I was in my early 20s, I did find many men in their 40s attractive, but now that I am in my 50s, for the first time in my life, I find myself auto-pilot eyeing men who upon reflection I realize actually must be younger than me. For instance, I was checking out the old dads of the affluent kindergarten group I was teaching in September.

Also, age difference is more relative than these graphs are able to reveal. For instance, my first lover was a very attractive 23 year old ski bum who was 8 years older than me and seemed like a fully mature grown man (for a ski bum), but 23 seems like and infant to me now. And, with possible exception for the likes of Harrison Ford, I have never dated anybody at mid-life who didn't notice or compensate for the age difference once it gets to around 7 to 12 years.

[daylen]

@7w5 It makes sense if there is a low supply of younger women in your area relative to older men.

[daylen]

Population density is a major factor.

[C40]

@C40:

I agree with most* of what you posted, but it doesn't explain why I have had great luck with dating in my 40s and 50s in the Midwest market.

It's still possible for any person to do well. Each individual has their own results.

You've got that big booty, all your charm and cleverness. Plus, the combination of you being good at learning/doing things, along with you devoting a significant portion of your creative energy to relationships.

[7Wannabe5]

@daylen: I mentioned Midwest, because it is a region that supposedly has relatively better ratios for men.

you devoting a significant portion of your creative energy to relationships.

Good eye. Note to Self: Apply stopper to leak ASAP.