Lending a girlfriend money

[cmonkey]

Given the cat is mid-life, spending money to treat health issues makes more sense than at end-of-life, but then it also depends on what the treatment is. How much will it enhance the animal's life? Will it cause the animal to possibly suffer more later in life? Will it end up ballooning into $15,000 in bills for the remainder of its life? Or is this a one-off expense?

Yes I like this suggestion. The money really doesn't affect me a lot, it is more a matter of principal, and indication of values and responsibilities and the implications for the future of the relationship.

+1 that's exactly right. If she means a lot to you and she's willing to listen to your side of it, then definitely work something out with her.

[prognastat]

@cmonkey

Those definitely would be some of the questions to ask. Medical costs definitely have a way of snowballing it's something that can't be taken care of completely by the procedure.

[cmonkey]

One other thing I noticed - folks recommending not to bring it up if she doesn't say anything. I pretty strongly disagree with this.

If you bring it up first it shows -

1. That you are not hiding from the situation.
2. That you care about her and the cat. This will help a lot.
3. It lets you start off by offering to negotiate and she might be more open to working together.

[Jason]

I disagree. If she wants Giskard to pay for the surgery, then she should be the one to let it out of the bag.

[Stahlmann]

Late stage capitalism problems from citizens of most imperialist country in the world:

Supporting 50 people for 30 days (who could teach some homies about antinatalism or family planning...) vs. propagating suffering of old cat to fulfill its owner narcissistic lusts of ''feeling wanted/important/"good"

Choose wisely.

[vexed87]

I did leave the caveat. The thing is, the cat may mean the world to GF and it may be worth every penny to her one act of kindness can reap dividends in terms of social capital down the road.

[Seppia]

To me, the issue is not the amount of money, the cat, or feminism.
It's the fact that apparently she EXPECTS the OP to offer to pay.
That's a terrible terrible sign.

but it seems the OP really wants to help so be it

[suomalainen]

you also know what kind of financial relations you would have had in the future (i.e. she would become your dependent), so maybe that's a good thing (if you don't want that).

In any case, the time is now. The cat incident has revealed an underlying potential incompatibility and the choice will reveal information.

I think this is the comment I agree with most. It's not about the cat or the girlfriend/wife (or feminism or whatever). It's about what @giskard chooses, and he will choose based on his values. To be clear, you can say "no" in a kind way and still not be an asshole. The choice isn't "pay for the surgery and be a nice guy" vs "don't pay and be an asshole". You can not pay and still be a nice guy. To wit: I'd decline to pay for the surgery because in my mind

1. $1500 is actually a lot of money. I rarely pay $1500 for anything
2. It's a cat. Cats are animals. Animals are mortals. Mortals die.
3. Notwithstanding the above, death is sad and we can be sad ourselves and we can be supportive of others who are sad
4. But to circle back, $1500 is a lot of money and spending that much money on a mortal non-human does not align with my values.
5. If she doesn't respect your values (as different than hers), maybe she'll choose to walk away.
6. To circle back to @Jacob's point, the choices on both sides will reveal important information, so to thine own self be true.

Good luck.

[Jason]

I googled "How much to buy a cat". Apparently you can get one for $50. But let's say that $50 only gets you a borderline cat and you want to make sure you get a fully functional cat, the price can go up to $100. That means you can get 15 brand new cats for the price you're paying to fix one broken cat. It begs the question, in what other circumstances would you do that? I mean Edith Keeler was debating putting $200 into her own mother and mothers are for the most part, irreplaceable (thank God).

Now, let's factor in that a cat is alive. It's a creature. And I'll even say God's creature although you have to think he regrets the idea. You still buy it. It doesn't come out of your loins. Your not going to give up your life for it like its your kid and if you would then your idiot because cats are selfish pieces of shit and wouldn't even appreciate that type of sacrifice. There is no cat emergency room so if Giskard wasn't in the picture the cat would die because of whatever ailment its suffering. And being that its not your child, you let it die a natural death, it still had a decent life as far as cat's life goes. I mean it didn't spend its years scrounging in alleys digging up scraps . I've had girlfriends in the past and thinking back upon it, I'm not sure I'd loan them $1500 if they needed life saving surgery and if I did I'd regret it now because they are no longer my girlfriend as girlfriends are prone to come and go in much the same manner as cats. Personally speaking, unless your talking Serena Williams, I wouldn't even go out with a girl who has a cat.

My other question, is how old is the girlfriend? To me that is as important as how old is the cat. I mean is she of the age that she should have $1500? If not does she have parents? Why doesn't she have $1500? Does she have $1500 of shit to sell? I mean unless this is like pancreatic cancer couldn't she have seen it coming and saved up for it. Did she know six months ago, before she met Giskard? Is Giskad just some cat surgery dupe?

[TopHatFox]

I don’t know dude, most millenial and gen-z relationships last a song and dance, if they even start at all. At the same time, you already have north of 300K, so you could consider this 1.5K and a discussion as a way to continue having access to sex, affection, and emotional intimacy for the next few months. But, at the same time, if she’s like a lot of millenial and gen-z women, she has been trained since elementary school to be independent, and placing demands on her like talking about her goals may push her away. Treat with care, but do realize that at the end of the encounter, you’re fine financially, and that at least you’re in the position of power here.

———

If she’s conventionally pretty, I think the GoFundMe idea would really well. Raising a few hundred through her followers on social media should be cake. Emphasize the state of healthcare, high living costs, low income, and other monicors of low-privilege. I wouldn’t be surprised if she met the goal quickly.

[The Old Man]

… so you could consider this 1.5K and a discussion as a way to continue having access to sex, affection, and emotional intimacy for the next few months.

What kind of advice is this? Are we trying for a "professional" arrangement? This is horrible advice. Remember you can not buy a relationship. Money does not solve all problems - in fact very few problems are solved with money.

Money could solve the cat's health problem, but we don't care about the cat. We care about the relationship and this problem can not be solved with money.

[Sclass]

EK’s bridesmaid story got me thinking.

A lot of people I refused to help financially have dug deeper holes for themselves. I may be selectively editing my memory to justify my actions, but I’m probably better off destroying those friendships by refusing to help.

I like to think I’ve dodged a lot of bullets by not getting involved in some of these financial debacles.

Two come to mind. Big business bailouts of friends. They needed loans...like all my savings. Just to pay a quarter of interest so they can receive their payables at the end of the quarter. I refused and their businesses cratered. Even though they offered wonderful terms I just couldn’t do it.

One friend literally died under the crushing stress of his company’s flameout. His wife begged me for the bridge loan and I refused. They lost their business and their home. The widow cursed me and spread around that I was a stingy bastard who wouldn’t help his old mentor.

Guess what? Fifteen years later after the wedge divided us this widow is back calling me. She needs help. Go figure.

Another pal is flaming out as I type this. He hasn’t asked for help yet but it’s coming no doubt. His vendors called me in confidence asking if they should extend him more credit. Like I’m gonna rescue his crap business that got him into this situation in the first place? It’s gonna be painful but I’m going to stand by as he goes down.

The OP needs to ask what he wants to get out of this. I like the reply that it isn’t about the $1500...it’s the message it sends. Better think about the future. People who go bankrupt once often go bankrupt again.

Now life isn’t all about having financially secure friends. It’s fun to have somebody to play with.

[Sclass]

What kind of advice is this? Are we trying for a "professional" arrangement? This is horrible advice. Remember you can not buy a relationship. Money does not solve all problems - in fact very few problems are solved with money.
.

No, I think this is actually pretty rational advice from the fox. Again, what do you want out of this? How easy is it for the op to get in a loving relationship? (Ok, get laid, I said it). All of these issues are part of the equation.

[Dream of Freedom]

CAT LIVES MATTER!

CAT LIVES MATTER!

[jacob]

So here's a funny observation: On a normal day this forum has maybe 50 posts in a day, probably less. This one thread has generated more posts in only half a day. Obviously this [issue] is a contentious matter. However, I also think that some comments are more a reflection of subjective perspectives than any kind of objective assessment. So not much different from book reviews or reviewers ... or the internet in general

The OP is certainly seeing a wide domain of experiences here. To me the domain of relationship advice here seems to span the gamut between what can be learned about human relationships from Discord gaming chats and youtube videos over perhaps bitter divorces and contentious marital arguments about financial planning to various regrets after the concept of walk-around-money has changed from being $15 to $1500 or more. It's obviously wider than this, but ... I just don't want to spend too much time editing this post to ensure nobody gets butthurt, so my apologies for missing any posts that conveys other perspectives. Suffice to say, on the internet, nobody know's you're a dog.

What we do know is that the OP problem is not an actual problem yet. It has, in fact, not been brought up by the SO. What this thread is about is just contingency planning in case the SO does bring it up. This is only a potential issue. It still solely exists in the OP's imagination. It's still entirely subjective, not objective.

However, I totally understand why this thread exploded because it has a lot of human interest, even when it's really about a cat. Poor cat, it's now famous on the internet. Shit! Well...

Here's something to consider ... but keep in mind that these observations are heavily biased by my personal life experiences ...

• Pets are a really good way to experience human life in fast forward mode. The more personal/humanized the pets get, the more effective this is. Lizards and fish not so much. Cats moreso. Dogs much so. And so on. Point is, you get to experience life in fast forward mode. Humans tend to live for 60-90 years. Pets much less so, but pets are young, middle-aged, and old too. (An interesting experiment is if humans kept pets who lived longer than normal humans do ... )
• Humans, pets, food made out of meat; they all exist on a scale. It's just a question of where you set your Overton window. That's a prime lesson from the ERE book. Depending on whether you consider another being a source of intimate relations, sex, warmth, or meat, or maybe something more is actually rather idiosyncratic. It depends on culture, distance, species, gender, and other factors. Tell me your load-factors for these, and I think it's possible to say what kind of person you are, how mature you are, what generation you belong to, how you live, ..., and how much I like you.

For example, I used to think of myself as a hard-ass when it came to these things. Then two years ago, our dog, Frank, suffered a freak spinal injury. Basically, I was carrying him and he wiggled out of my grasp and feel onto the floor, ass first, *baam*, disc injury. He was 13 years old which for his species corresponds to a human aged about 75. This effectively paralyzed him from the mid-down. It was heart-breaking to see him sitting there, the front part being normal albeit confused (as in ... "please help me out here") while the rear part being lame and not responding to the front part. The doctors wouldn't or couldn't give any guarantees. Now, Frank has been part of our life for about as long as we've been in a relationship. We have to a large extent arranged our lives around being dog owners. The perspective here is that Frank has been a part of our lives. We do not think of him as hotdog meat or a replaceable animal. He is uniquely Frank.

When it happened, my feelings, which I'd like to think do not guide my decisions, eventually won. We did sign an initial DNR, but I also recall telling DW the day after (following a lot of thinking) that I'd thought it over and I was willing to toss all my cash ($25,000) at the problem if it had to come to that point. Obviously I wouldn't enjoy it... but he meant more to me than an aquarium fish. Bill was ~$4000. We paid it.

However, we did this from a point of FI strength. It was <0.5% of our NW. The result would have been very different if $4000 was a lot of money, so I totally understand anyone early on their FI journey not wanting to blow 5, 10 or 50% of their stash on such stuff being as it is hard to imagine that $1500 will eventually become pocket change within the big picture or delay the FI journey by a month or two as @EK said, even if you still/always retain a sense of sending messages and not blowing money frivolousness no matter how much you're worth^H^H^H^H^Hhow much money you have.

As it was, it didn't really change the conclusions. I think for those who are still striving for FI, this amount seems really important, but if you're in runaway mode, you can afford it. To wit, you still know the price of everything but what you value might change insofar it's easy to afford.

After several months of reconvalescence Frank is doing great but he's getting older. All lifeforms do. A few weeks ago, he fell again. This time, with more experience and knowledge, we took a more rational approach. It's one thing when it's a surprise and you don't know and the health care system is designed to give you options rather than answers... it's another thing if you have some idea. This is why I think pets are a lesson in life for humans too.

I often see this idea that people FI health care plan for old age is a final cruise in shark infested waters or a .38 special ... however, given the above, I really wonder whether the decision made at age 35, say, to refuse further medical intervention after age 75, say, will still hold when you're 74 and otherwise feeling fine. Based on what happened here, I doubt it's going to be as easy as I imagined it in my 20s or 30s.

It's very fucking easy to be a hard ass from a position of strength or need. It's tougher from a position of weakness or want.

[Campitor]

I think the best thing in this situation is to communicate calmly with your girlfriend. You've been together 6 months which isn't that much time to really now each other's boundaries and goals. Some people (men and women) view animals as surrogate children and place a very high emotional value on their animal companions; they are considered family. So just dismissing support, even financial, can seem callous if you don't offer to share your viewpoints and goals in a mature manner.

You need to ask her why she feels this surgery is necessary and what are her boundaries in regards to choosing expenses that are beyond her control. If the cost of surgery increased to $2,500 or $4,500, would she find that expense worth paying knowing that you would find it onerous despite your financial status? You've only been dating for 6 months - why does she feel so comfortable utilizing and asking you for money? Why are you lending money to someone who you've only been dating for 6 months? There are a lot of red flags here on both sides.

If she is a mature person, she will listen to what you have to share and take that into consideration. And if you're mature, you will know what boundaries are important to you. Set those boundaries now and steer the tone of your relationship. No love is worth the loss of self-respect. Loss of self respect results in loss of respect in both directions.

[Clarice]

you feel uncomfortable doing this.
If she asks, you just need to point blank tell her the truth, that you feel uncomfortable doing this. You respect her as a person enough not to mock her or belittle her about spending 1500 on a cat, which is not something you'd do. She needs to respect you too. If she doesn't respect you, then you don't have a good relationship
In general, when your gut tells you something, my advice is that you should listen to it. Emotions like anger, unease, fear, etc evolved over millennia to give us the kick in the ass we need to change our lives for the better. Ignore them at your own peril.

@OP:
That's it. That's the crux of the matter. You have to respect YOU and, at the same time, respect her - not an easy feat in this situation. You two, obviously, have significant differences in how you see the world/money/this particular situation. The success of your relationship depends on how you handle these differences. If you go against your gut now you will resent your GF later. If she resents you for not lending her the money now... oh well, it's just the first resentment out of many. It's a no go then...

@Augustus:
You are not an INTJ, right? You are way too emotionally intelligent...

[prognastat]

Also taking the human/non human part out of the equation.

If a close friend of yours had an accident/illness and needed to borrow a decent sum to pay for medical care that would be very different than your girlfriend of 6 months asking you lend a similar sum because her friend got injured/ill.

Chances are many would feel comfortable helping in the first situation, but uncomfortable in the second. The fact that it's a cat for some might make a difference and for some no difference at all. Many would likely be willing to spend 1k+ in the first situation, but would be more likely to toss in 100 or maybe offer some help during this time in the latter.

[suomalainen]

Best. Thread. Ever.

+1 to Augustus.

But yes, this is a personal decision and as a voyeur, I am interested in what @giskard decides. Please don’t leave us hanging.

No judgment tho. There’s no right answer. Just curious as to how he decides to resolve this situation. My opinion, expressed above, is my own and is therefore wholly irrelevant. Petting two of my three cats (the third is sometimes is a cold b!tch, but when she isn’t, damn is she cute) this evening who were laying on my bed as I changed from my work clothes, I did wonder whether I wouldn’t pay $1500 to extend their lives for a good number of years. Prolly not if the writing was on the wall, but a much tougher question if earlier in life. Great trolley question, @giskard.

[hojo-e]

For those who are adamantly against, what amount would make it okay to give her the money? $100? $500?

How long would the relationship have to be to make it okay to give her the $1500? 1 year? Marriage? Never?

He seems to respect her despite her inability to save. What if she is the love of his life?

At what point does extremely rational thinking become irrational?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 110033.htm

"Not acknowledged enough are potential undesired personal and societal consequences associated with high self-control and with the pursuit of higher self-control. Examples include inflexible behavioral patterns, over-emphasis on norm-adherence at the expense of personal discretion, and strict emphasis on cold and rational thinking while overlooking intuition and emotional inputs. These tendencies carry all sorts of potentially problematic implications on information processing, decision-making, as well as social and interpersonal behavior of individuals high in self-control" says Dr. Uziel.