cmonkey's journal

Where are you and where are you going?
suomalainen
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by suomalainen »

Famous last words. I agree that babies aren't that expensive, but you've got to look past the honeymoon stage. Once they get past the age of needing you merely for survival, that's when the true costs of children come to light. And it ain't money. Money just makes some things easier.

cmonkey
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by cmonkey »

suomalainen wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:11 pm
that's when the true costs of children come to light. And it ain't money. Money just makes some things easier.
Care to give any examples? I'm not sure what you're implying.

suomalainen
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by suomalainen »

In short, what I'm implying is that it's all about control.

When people think about having kids, they think about having healthy babies. Healthy babies are easy - the cost is a little bit of food or clothing, diapers and wipes, some toys, and a little bit of lost sleep. The lost sleep sucks, but it's short term. Ditto with diapers. I basically can't remember the suckage of those parts unless I focus on it. Anyway, the variables affecting a normal healthy baby* are few and therefore babies are easy to control - within a fairly narrow range, they are where you want them to be, they wear what you want them to wear, they eat what you want them to eat, they do what you want them to do. In other words, these costs are easy to identify and control and you feel in control.

* leaving aside special needs, like my preemie, who came home with all kinds of boxes with wires and tubes, etc., let alone a child with permanent special needs like downs or something. My wife's uncle is apparently unique in that he has survived well past his life expectancy as a person with downs. I think he's approaching 60. His mother took care of him until her death and now his sister cares for him.

But babies grow up. They become more complex creatures. Their needs multiply and become more complex. Therefore responding to those needs becomes more costly, in terms of time, energy and money. They still need food and clothes, but now kids will need socialization and education too. Kids will also have unique personalities and desires. They will have unique (from you) social pressures. All of these needs can be ignored or addressed. If you choose to ignore them, there will eventually be a (very heavy) cost. If you choose to address them, it's like any other life problem -- if you have the time, skills and energy to address them yourself (like painting your own living room or whatever), then good for you, but it's not costless. If you don't, you'll have to use money to pay for a solution. Sample questions that you will have to address (note that even asking the question bears a cost in having to come up with your preferred answer):
  • Neighborhood considerations - where to live considering the kids
  • Play dates
  • Public vs private vs home school
  • Hobbies/Interests
  • Friends, especially if they're "bad influences"
  • Technology/screen time
  • Etc
Each choice you make to address these and other issues will have a cost, in some combination of time, money and energy. And also in blowback from the kid. Blowback from a baby is whatever - easy to ignore. Fighting with a sentient being for weeks on end over what to you is some dumb shit but to them is like their whole fucking life like screen or phone time is something completely different...even when you've already "won" by being the "best" parent in the school district because your child is literally the last child in the district to get his own phone. You can see where we came out on the screen time question.

These latter costs are much harder to identify and control and you won't feel in control. Can you choose for your child not to be a violin prodigy? If they are, what will you do? What if they're a drug addict? What will you do? These are not easy questions and they certainly go beyond
I don't expect a drastic change but there will be additional expenses, mostly for some additional food and the cost of clothing since they will outgrow everything quickly. DW and I are in alignment on garage sales and clearance racks on this though
Anyway, I was just responding to the statement of naive confidence. I used to be naively confident too. And then I actually had kids. And it's way harder than it looks. Maybe you'll get lucky and have an easily controlled variable (kid). But I doubt it. Even less likely if you have more than one.

cmonkey
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by cmonkey »

Great points and I definitely agree. My vision probably is a bit short sighted and honeymoon phased at the moment (largely controlled by "I need a baby" hormones I'm sure). I think my hope is that living by example will be the trump card in the long run and that ERE gives more flexibility with our living arrangements and will help with producing a better child (and later adult).

Peer influence is a huge variable and definitely out of total control but is still influenceable through where you live and what schooling options you choose. Again, living by example helps out a ton.

My statement about the expenses comes from the fact that I will be the one holding the bank card at least until they learn where it is. :lol:

suomalainen
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by suomalainen »

Living by example is great. But they'll eventually wear you down when they care more about a thing than you do. You can't fight when you're exhausted. And kids don't exhaust. They just keep going. But if you're FI and don't have a full-time job, maybe you'll have more energy to fight the good fight for longer. Although...anyone notice that MMM was super gung-ho about home schooling his one kid and going on outings to the local creek to see the bugs in the water and stuff? Anyone subsequently notice a less-than-prominent mention that the kid was back in public schools? :lol: :twisted: Even Mr. Kent apparently has his limits.

Anyway, I don't want to burst anyone's baby bubble. Babies are awesome. Kids are pretty cool too. It's just...it's work. And sometimes you'd rather pay someone else to do it.

cmonkey
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by cmonkey »

suomalainen wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:59 pm
anyone notice that MMM was super gung-ho about home schooling his one kid and going on outings to the local creek to see the bugs in the water and stuff? Anyone subsequently notice a less-than-prominent mention that the kid was back in public schools? :lol: :twisted: Even Mr. Kent apparently has his limits.
This was probably two pronged - having the kids properly socialized and the kids out-growing his ability to properly teach high school subjects.

I was homeschooled until middle school precisely because my parents didn't have the time to dive into the specifics of higher level education. It's probably doable, but as you said, requires a lot more energy and time.

There's also a lot more benefit in having your children properly socialized than raising them in bubbles. Even an extreme introvert like me benefits from some interaction with the world.

We are going to face both of these tests when we move to MN because the plan is to embrace MN's online (free) public school system. My sister-in-law went through it and it's a great program but it presents challenges on the social front. You need to go out and find social groups for your child because they are otherwise just at home all the time. Unfortunately at this time the only option is a local church which DW will probably insist on being a part of (ugh). If I can rise above my instincts and just live and let live, it'll probably be ok. We also have a friend in the area with a 6 months old, so ages will be similar.

Fish
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by Fish »

cmonkey wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:32 pm
We also have a friend in the area with a 6 months old, so ages will be similar.
Did I miss an announcement? Or is this “funding secured”-type talk?

Since MMM and kids are on topic in this thread right now, check out https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016 ... rugal-guru
[MMM] often says that one of the reasons he retired was to be present and fully engaged as a father: “I idolized the idea of being a good dad.” An underreported element of Mustachianism might be helicopter parenting. He seems uncommonly attentive to his son’s whims and moods, but he freely admits that it is a burden to have a child. This is not a value judgment but a statement of fact with regard to money, energy, and time.
(In that article, there is also an amusing anecdote about his kid's foray into Magic:TG and a brief mention of ERE that Jacob would dispute.)

The intent of sharing this is not to discourage having a child, but trying to help set expectations appropriately. Apparently FIRE isn’t transformative for the parenting experience, it just affords more options and opportunities.

suomalainen
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by suomalainen »

yes, agreed, @ you both. If you have all the skills, time and energy in the world, kids won't be "expensive" in money terms. But they will be "expensive" in terms of getting the necessary skills (homeschool teacher through high-school, for example) and expending the time and/or energy. Kids are just an extension (and I would argue complication) of the normal ERE approach to other life problems. Doing your own plumbing is easy; raising humans is hard.

In any event, @cmonkey, if this was a non-announcement announcement, congrats and good luck. Hold on to your butts.

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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by jacob »

@Fish - Yeah, the New Yorker got that ERE mention backwards. Their editor missed it too despite MMM pointing it out to them during the fact-checking phase that it was the other way around.

@cmonkey/suomalainen - When it comes to children (and why we choose not to have any) I'm usually asked whether it's a) because we can't afford them on the ERE budget; b) because of climate change; or c) other.

The answer is 0% to the budget question, 10% to the climate question, and 90% to "other". I was the oldest child in the family including the extended family (the part we interacted with---I have a couple of cousins ~7 years younger than me). My mother worked in daycare and would sometimes babysit. I've experienced baby's first words, taught toddlers to walk and talk, and helped younglings with homework. My XGF had two gradeschoolers. I've seen enough to know that parenting is something I could do but also something I would not want to do because I have little interest in it. I suspect I would do the minimum and otherwise ignore the kids or hope they would stop bothering me. Being a distant-parent is (psychologists have studied this) worse than being a incompetent-parent, so I would make for a terrible parent and generate some screwed up kids. I usually tell other parents that I'm "too selfish" to have kids. That sounds sufficiently self-depreciating and makes other parents feel better about themselves. So, I've made a very deliberate choice.

As far as I've understood, the majority of people have children because someone accidentally got pregnant. Most of the rest have them because babies are cute or they want a family. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they want children because they love parenting/being a parent. That apparently is the price to be paid. Most people just don't know how high it is. I had a good idea though.

7Wannabe5
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I had kids because why wouldn't you want to use the extra parts that come with the Visible Woman model? The fact that I got knocked up earlier than plan was incidental.

It's interesting how mileage can vary based on personality type, because I was also an oldest child who cared for other children from a very young age, but I enjoyed it, or at least felt like it was one of my "purposes." Also, since I did start young with such responsibilities, I was never very anxious about them as an adult (kind of like swimming or reading or anything else in which you gain competence before age 10?) However, I prefer the infancy stage-up to about age 6- and the young adult stage-over the middle years, which are relatively boring and social-obligation filled. The early years are fascinating to me, because you are witnessing and participating in the steep upward S-curve phase for that individual outside of the womb. IOW, same reason why I am excited to see bean sprouts popping out of the ground year after year.

cmonkey
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by cmonkey »

No one missed an announcement, but I guess I've sorta been implying we are having a child. So here ya go.

Our daughter is due in late January. :)


I'm probably one of the few that actually wants to be a parent, actually looking forward to the challenge of it. I'm sure I'll get sick of it from time to time like anyone but I'm going to try to hold on to the initial joy and fascination with this new little creature.

It's funny jacob would link to that climate article because this is something I'm struggling with now that I know she's on the way. Not really that I'm burdening the planet anymore (we're only plannng on one child), but more for her own well being later in life. I've found myself wondering what I can do to make her life easier in a world that's going to be falling apart.

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jennypenny
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by jennypenny »

Congratulations!

FYI ... some of us like being parents. ;)

To paraphrase something I once said ... I've noticed on the forum that the DIY-types are into having babies and the FI-types avoid parenting or constantly calculate the costs of the ones they have. *I'm not criticizing anyone.* I'm only pointing out that different mindsets can produce completely different views of parenting.

You definitely seem like a DIY-type cmonkey, so I think you'll love it.

cmonkey
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by cmonkey »

jennypenny wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:01 pm
You definitely seem like a DIY-type cmonkey, so I think you'll love it.
Thanks jp, we'll have to stick together! :D

We've both wanted a little girl for as long as I can remember now and when we found out it's a girl we were both ecstatic (still are!).

SavingWithBabies
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by SavingWithBabies »

Congratulations! With our first, I had to learn that sometimes I had to be selfish for the greater good (I had sleep deprivation for the first 6 months and didn't realize it until after the fact). That probably sounds like whining but I mean it more in the sense that it's worth paying extra attention to your self to make sure you're in good shape to help everyone else.
Last edited by SavingWithBabies on Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

vexed87
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by vexed87 »

cmonkey wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:01 am
Our daughter is due in late January. :)
...
It's funny jacob would link to that climate article because this is something I'm struggling with now that I know she's on the way. Not really that I'm burdening the planet anymore (we're only plannng on one child), but more for her own well being later in life. I've found myself wondering what I can do to make her life easier in a world that's going to be falling apart.
@cmonkey

First off, congrats to you and mrs. cmonkey. It's great news, even in troubled times, a baby born into a happy home is to be treasured by you and your kin. I've never been the gushy type around other's kids, but there's nothing quite like holding your own baby girl! I know from experience you'll love the challenge, it's a gift that truly keeps on giving. Just get your sleep in now whilst you still can, at some stages you'll forget what a full nights sleep feels like, but with a smiling baby in your arms you'll not mind too much ;)

As you know, I too spend a lot of time thinking and worrying about this same stuff, even whilst DW doesn't! We cannot guarantee any outcomes in their lives, and for people who are so used to being in control of our own destiny, that is hard to accept. You will soon find out your baby has her own agenda, but we can at least try our best to equip them with a stable home and the skills and all forms of capital that they need to navigate the challenges of the future insofar we are able. There's not much more we can do than that.

I have, probably as you have, come to the conclusion that our generation may live shorter lives than our parents, and our children shorter still, but that's not to suggest that that life will be any less worth living or meaningful. Without detracting from the tragedy of the situation, if anything, the challenges of the future may make lives in some senses more real and meaningful than they are currently for many poor souls, in that sense there will be constraint where there was plenty, but plenty where there were once constraints. I don't know if you have read Tribe by Sebastian Junger, but that gave me a lot of comfort about where we are heading. In some senses, I'm glad that DD and future generations are not destined to live in a truly techno-dystopian and increasingly pathologically alienating society. The crisis to some extent pushes the reset button on the whole crazy world we currently inhabit. Not that it will be all sunshine and rainbows. But there's room leftover for a bit of warped optimism.

Honestly though, even though it's an intangible irrational thing to do knowing what we know, IMO becoming a parent might be the most human achievement I ever made, and there's something to be said for that.

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C40
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by C40 »

I bet you two will be good parents

cmonkey
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by cmonkey »

@Saving and @C40 - Thanks :) Working from home full time will hopefully help with the routine changes coming my way.
vexed87 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:41 am
First off, congrats to you and mrs. cmonkey.
Thanks vexed! I appreciate your words of wisdom. I bet you've done more thinking about it than even I have and certainly more reading. I'll have to pick that book up at the library. I hope your little one is doing well.


In case anyone didn't notice (I'm sure no one did) I have been parsing out on my spreadsheet the expenses for baby so far. Mostly some clearance clothes and pre-natal vitamins in there at this point. I'll label it as Baby/Kid going forward but it's currently labeled "misc" under household. So far so good, we are not high at all. We've also bought a number of more expensive items on Craigslist for super cheap including the car seat and a stroller and a huge stash of clothe diapers valued at over 1K bucks for 250 bucks.

7Wannabe5
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Congratulations!

Ditto what jennypenny said about DIY and no worries :D This year you will be hanging cloth diapers out to dry, and 30 years from now you will be giving her advice on how to best clean out the gutters on her own new home (sigh-cue Joni Mitchell.)

cmonkey
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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by cmonkey »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:22 am
Congratulations!

Ditto what jennypenny said about DIY and no worries :D This year you will be hanging cloth diapers out to dry, and 30 years from now you will be giving her advice on how to best clean out the gutters on her own new home (sigh-cue Joni Mitchell.)
Fun stuff! :lol: :lol:

People think we are crazy for doing clothe, but they are much improved these days. And people have figured out there is a used market for these. They disappear quick and we got lucky with our find. We'll resell when we are finished for close to what we paid.

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Re: cmonkey's journal

Post by theanimal »

Congrats cmonkey. Looking forward to reading updates. FWIW, my friends who have kids love being parents and have structured their lives to spend more time with their kids.

And I've noticed more than half of them use cloth diapers. It seems to be a net positive vs buying tons and tons of disposables.

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