Hristo's FI Journal

Where are you and where are you going?
Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

jacob wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:17 pm

Thanks. I'm clearly a little thin-skinned and defensive about this stuff; and I appreciate your measured response to my rant.

I just don't see superlight or ultralight backpacking in my future, so long as I've got kids in elementary school. Certainly I expect that will change once the kids move out/on. But for the next 13 years or so, perhaps I can just focus on not being a car camper (to belabor your metaphor). If I can focus on cutting everything but tuition (housing is already as bare bones as it's going to get for now), then perhaps I can get to the level of lightweight backpacker, with the understanding that I've got 3 other humans in my house to spread the weight around.

My goal, consistent savings rate of 70% or more. I just don't think I've got much more than that in the cards.

Hristo Botev
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Dante

Post by Hristo Botev »

Midway along the journey of our life
I woke to find myself in a dark wood,
for I had wandered off from the straight path.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

fell-like-rain wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:31 pm
In fact, I just thought of what could be a mutually beneficial arrangement- all you have to do is direct some cash flow my way at about the level of your current grocery bill, and in return I'll say masses in perpetuity for the repose of your soul in heaven.
No thanks.

suomalainen
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by suomalainen »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:09 pm
who employs and develops, by means of labor,* the many gifts I have received from God to add value to society...

(*) Which is what we were created to do, ... It is in man's nature to seek responsibility and to labor.
But is this our exclusive purpose and nature? Is it really true for all people? At all stages of life? It reminds me of a zippy comic (to which I can't seem to find a link) that was entitled something like "How we mature":

First panel, kid: As we enter life, the basic message we want to convey to the world is: Hello!
Second panel, man: As we enter adulthood, that message changes to: I'm great!
Third panel, old man: And as we enter our golden years, with the wisdom that comes with age, we let out a hearty "$%&# you!" at every opportunity.

In my mind, I find your statement to be "middle age" centric, which is fine because you're middle aged, but perhaps isn't (yet) applicable to your kids and perhaps won't be applicable to you at some future point in time (even if the difference becomes one of degree rather than kind). I myself wonder whether that "nature to seek responsibility and to labor" is really a nature thing (as in "psychological nature") or a cultural thing or an ego thing or something else. Labor to me is really just a necessity of existing in a physical world - the universe owes you nothing and if you don't lift the spoon to put soup in your mouth (or pay or enslave someone to do it, which also requires work), you will die. As to responsibility outside of yourself and your family? That seems totally optional. Some want it, some don't. Some want it sometimes, but not other times.
Hristo Botev wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:09 pm
...but you really have to not be paying attention to think that man can be happy without bearing some kind of burden.
Burdens seem to find us; we don't really have to go looking for them. Thus happiness is more linked to how we approach our burdens rather than whether we have them.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

suomalainen wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:08 am
But is this our exclusive purpose and nature? Is it really true for all people? At all stages of life?
Probably not. Though I view these things exclusively through a religious/Christian/Catholic lens, which I of course recognize is not how everyone comes at these things (though as a Catholic I nevertheless believe is universal in truth). So for me, our exclusive purpose at all stages of life is to know, love, and serve God; i.e., to live holy lives, which means to become like God as much as is humanly possible, and God is love. Material possessions, marriage, work, sexual intimacy, money, positions of authority, etc. are some of the opportunities life presents to live holy lives--i.e., to show love. And you live a holy life by living a virtuous life. And the role of work (or labor), is only secondarily about providing for our temporal means. It's primary role is to provide us an opportunity to grow in virtue (temperance, prudence, fortitude/courage, justice (to each his fair share, and for me no more than my fair share), faith, hope, and of course love/charity).
suomalainen wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:08 am
Second panel, man: As we enter adulthood, that message changes to: I'm great!
That's just pride.
suomalainen wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:08 am
Third panel, old man: And as we enter our golden years, with the wisdom that comes with age, we let out a hearty "$%&# you!" at every opportunity.
God, I hope that's not what we're working towards.
suomalainen wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:08 am
In my mind, I find your statement to be "middle age" centric, which is fine because you're middle aged, but perhaps isn't (yet) applicable to your kids and perhaps won't be applicable to you at some future point in time (even if the difference becomes one of degree rather than kind).
Certainly my perspective is of a man in middle age (see Dante quote in earlier post). But at all stages of life our essential purpose remains the same: to know and love and serve God. And when you see that as your central purpose then it necessarily follows that life isn't about you; which is no less a radical idea in today's world than Jacob's spot-on ideas regarding consumerism and ERE (and, from a religious perspective, the two ideas--ERE and life's not about you--are very much complimentary, as I noted earlier in my post about St. Ignatius). So I guess, if you wanted to break it out into your 3 panels, and to your point about differing degrees, I'd said that Panel 1 is a little more focused on coming to "know" God (but serving and loving are still important); whereas the second panel is more about serving and I guess panel 3 is a little more about loving God. But the purpose remains the same.
suomalainen wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:08 am
I myself wonder whether that "nature to seek responsibility and to labor" is really a nature thing (as in "psychological nature") or a cultural thing or an ego thing or something else. Labor to me is really just a necessity of existing in a physical world - the universe owes you nothing and if you don't lift the spoon to put soup in your mouth (or pay or enslave someone to do it, which also requires work), you will die. As to responsibility outside of yourself and your family? That seems totally optional. Some want it, some don't. Some want it sometimes, but not other times.

Burdens seem to find us; we don't really have to go looking for them. Thus happiness is more linked to how we approach our burdens rather than whether we have them.

I get what you're saying, but I don't agree. First, as I said above, labor is only secondarily about existing in the physical world; it's primary role is to provide opportunities to live a virtuous life (just like being a father and husband are primarily focused on providing you opportunities to live a virtuous life--my struggles with patience (i.e., the theological virtue of love/charity) immediately comes to mind). If your goal is to live a virtuous life (and I recognize that's not necessarily how many people view their life goal), I just don't see how you can do that without voluntarily undertaking some responsibility in life. How do you exercise justice (to each his due) without taking on the responsibility of being in a position to exercise justice over another? How do you exercise courage without voluntarily confronting obstacles. Same is true for prudence and temperance. These aren't Puritanical or even Christian constructs; the cardinal virtues go back to Aristotle. Same goes for the theological virtues of faith, hope, and love. Love isn't a feeling, it means to will the good of the other (i.e., the real meaning of the Golden Rule). And I don't think you can really will the good of the other by sitting on a beach drinking margaritas for the rest of your life or whatever a "free," hedonistic life looks like for you. That's all good and great for a short time, as a vacation from your labor and responsibility, but the vacation cannot become the means and ends of life itself. That's just selfishness (and sloth). And it will ultimately lead to listlessness, boredom, and depression--EVERY TIME.

suomalainen
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by suomalainen »

Yep, I also get what you're saying and will agree to disagree. As a formerly religious person, I have heard variations on your explanation dozens of times, and totally get it. There are slight differences in approach or even doctrine, I suppose, but all in all very similar. For example, your explanation appears to rely a bit more heavily on "works" than on "faith", as you might hear from evangelicals (or at least I did when growing up in the south). "All you have to do is profess your belief in Christ before you die and you are saved!" is something I was told once by a preacher, but to each his own.

Much of this, as you note, I think comes down to premises and lenses. So, starting with different premises (and lenses and biases, etc*), I react to sentiments like "labor is great or meaningful or purposeful" much differently than others. For example, one reading of your explanation could be of perfectionism - nothing is ever good enough because more can always be done. If that is an attitude that you impress upon your children, it could potentially be quite damaging, as I've seen in my own relationship with my father and in friends' relationships with their mothers or fathers because kids are quite attuned to acceptance/rejection by their parents. Another example could be that such a focus on "living a virtuous life" can also be quite selfish as you could start to view each "opportunity" through the lens of "how does this make me more virtuous?"

This isn't to argue that I'm right and you're wrong, but that each of us can "do well" by our premises/lenses or we can do them poorly. I'm not nearly as certain of my path being Ultimate Truth as you are, but I do think that once a path has been chosen, that one can walk the path well or poorly. Best of luck on your path -- certainly the children will provide ample opportunities for growing in patience! :lol:

* Full disclosure: most of my negative reactions related to religions is due to my anti-authoritarian bent. Powerful people (people who have power over you) give me the willies, as in my experience they tend to be assholes, with few exceptions unfortunately. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that.

Scott 2
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Scott 2 »

Kids gotta learn how to maintain their values in the face of temptation. When does that happen? That isolation is expensive.

I've justified a "pricey" house, about ($260k) currently, with the idea that it is not forever. Figure out your exit strategy and account for it in your planning.

Your other expenses look pretty good to me, especially considering you are in a high earning career. I'm in a similar boat. It's easier to make more money than drop 20% off the food bill or move to save 10k a year.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

suomalainen wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:24 pm
Yep, I also get what you're saying and will agree to disagree. As a formerly religious person, I have heard variations on your explanation dozens of times, and totally get it. There are slight differences in approach or even doctrine, I suppose, but all in all very similar. For example, your explanation appears to rely a bit more heavily on "works" than on "faith", as you might hear from evangelicals (or at least I did when growing up in the south). "All you have to do is profess your belief in Christ before you die and you are saved!" is something I was told once by a preacher, but to each his own.
For the record, whether someone is "saved," and the whole works vs. faith discussion are Protestant ideas that don't really make sense from a Catholic understanding of theology. Catholics believe that we are saved by God's grace only; and there is nothing we can "do" to receive the free gift of salvation. However, Catholics also believe that we have to respond to God's grace, and that it is inconceivable that, upon knowing and understanding God's grace, a person would not want to respond to God's grace, through both faith and works. Again, it's just anther way of saying that our purpose in life is to know, love, and serve God. Once we come to know God, we cannot help but to want to serve God and his creation.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:31 pm
Kids gotta learn how to maintain their values in the face of temptation. When does that happen? That isolation is expensive.
I guess I don't understand where the kids are expected to learn these values; that's kind of the point. It's not about isolation.

EdithKeeler
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by EdithKeeler »

I like your journal, and I’m enjoying the discussion of Catholic beliefs. I’m Catholic, but not a very good one, and your view reminds me what makes sense to me about Catholicism.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

EdithKeeler: Very glad to hear it. I hadn't intended this journal to have anything to do with Catholicism, but you kind of can't help that consideration of ERE is going to force you to think about what's important and what the purpose of life is. If ERE is about taking the red pill and escaping the blissful ignorance of the Matrix (education, work, consume, retire at 65 if you're lucky and move to a retirement community); then it seems to follow that you have to think about if not the Matrix, then what? ERE is the means, but to what end? Speaking of which, appropriately enough, from today's Old Testament's reading--Exodus 16:

The whole Israelite community grumbled against Moses and Aaron.
The Israelites said to them,
"Would that we had died at the LORD's hand in the land of Egypt,
as we sat by our fleshpots and ate our fill of bread!
But you had to lead us into this desert
to make the whole community die of famine!"


I love this. Moses leads the Israelites out of Egypt and hundreds of years of slavery, and do the Israelites thank him? Of course not, they complain about how much better life was when they were enslaved. I guess the ERE analogy is that ERE can lead you out of the slavery of consumerism and working 45+ years in a job that you hate; but once you're free and find yourself in the desert--how do you replace the hole that's left where consumerism and work had been?

Jason

Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Jason »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:06 pm
For the record, whether someone is "saved," and the whole works vs. faith discussion are Protestant ideas that don't really make sense from a Catholic understanding of theology. Catholics believe that we are saved by God's grace only; and there is nothing we can "do" to receive the free gift of salvation. However, Catholics also believe that we have to respond to God's grace, and that it is inconceivable that, upon knowing and understanding God's grace, a person would not want to respond to God's grace, through both faith and works. Again, it's just anther way of saying that our purpose in life is to know, love, and serve God. Once we come to know God, we cannot help but to want to serve God and his creation.
That is the classical definition of Protestantism.

There is no faith vs. good works dichotomy in Protestantism. Its a matter of order - one is saved to do good works, not one does good works to become saved. And Protestantism believes faith without good works is not true faith. Luther misinterpreted the Book of James which deals with works. They found a copy of his Bible with scribblings "No, no, Jimmy." However, this was parsed out by the second generation of Reformers, namely Calvin as it memorialized its disagreements with The Holy Roman Church. It's not an issue within Protestantism in its classical definition. But it is an issue within the broader based evangelical church which Protestantism gets (often unfairly) lumped in with.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

Interesting; I wasn't of that, but that makes total sense. The only distinction I guess I'd make b/w your classical definition of Protestantism and my understanding of the Catholic view is your "one is saved to do good works." As I understand it the Catholic take is that we weren't saved to do good works; rather, God saved us to liberate us from sin and restore communion with him. I grew up Protestant, but Episcopalian (so not evangelical and not classically Protestant); so my understanding of the distinctions between Protestantism and Catholics are not particularly well informed, as the Episcopalian/Anglican theology on this I don't think is that much different from the Catholic view.

EdithKeeler
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by EdithKeeler »

EdithKeeler: Very glad to hear it. I hadn't intended this journal to have anything to do with Catholicism, but you kind of can't help that consideration of ERE is going to force you to think about what's important and what the purpose of life is. If ERE is about taking the red pill and escaping the blissful ignorance of the Matrix (education, work, consume, retire at 65 if you're lucky and move to a retirement community); then it seems to follow that you have to think about if not the Matrix, then what? ERE is the means, but to what end?
Lately I've been thinking a lot about stewardship of the earth, stewardship of our belongings, etc., and how that dovetails with work. I think a lot about how time is spent at work (sitting behind a desk for 8-9 hours a day, plus commuting, plus getting ready for work), and how time spent at work earns money to buy things... and how time spent at work is time that can't be spent elsewhere. Sometimes I look around my house and see all this STUFF (and compared to a lot of others, I don't have that much stuff....) and I think about how little other people may have... and then i see all the waste--when I waste food, throw out things I don't use, pick up litter on my dog walks, how when I buy coffee at McDonalds it generates waste.... and the time spent at work makes us buy more convenience stuff (for myself, and as a society), and also makes us be often disconnected from our neighbors. To me, it's all connected, and it's not the way I want to live my life anymore. And it's all interconnected with my faith in ways that's hard to verbalize.

It's funny because I'm watching an episode of "Hoarders" as I write this, an episode where a woman is on the verge of losing custody of her child because of the squalor and the huge hoard of junk in the house and her few friends haven't been inside her home for years. An extreme example of that disconnection from others because of materialism and greed and lives out of balance, but it resonates with me. I admit that i have a lot of doubts from time to time about other aspects of my faith, but I'm convinced that the christian teachings on stewardship of the earth and our belongings and the importance of community and connection are right and good.

Jason

Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Jason »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:09 pm
Interesting; I wasn't of that, but that makes total sense. The only distinction I guess I'd make b/w your classical definition of Protestantism and my understanding of the Catholic view is your "one is saved to do good works." As I understand it the Catholic take is that we weren't saved to do good works; rather, God saved us to liberate us from sin and restore communion with him. I grew up Protestant, but Episcopalian (so not evangelical and not classically Protestant); so my understanding of the distinctions between Protestantism and Catholics are not particularly well informed, as the Episcopalian/Anglican theology on this I don't think is that much different from the Catholic view.
Protestants have a robust view of Union with Christ. I would say it is the fundamental heuristic when discussing salvation. The concept of works is important when stressing the monergistic working of God in the salvific process.

I would say if there is a difference between RC and Protestantism is that Protestantism believes that salvation is a fundamental change in status i.e I was previously dead and now am made alive. My understanding is that RC has more of an existential view i.e. "I was once sick and I now I am healthy." In a nutshell, the Reformation was the bi-furcating of justification and sanctification. But these views cross-pollinate between the faiths. Someone once told me that a Protestant has an obligation to know why they are not RC. It takes some surgical theological parsing as we agree on more things than we disagree with. The Reformation was essentially a soteriological debate that does have implications towards our views on Christology. However, many important doctrines such as the trinity, creation, providence, were never debated.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

EdithKeeler wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:25 pm
To me, it's all connected, and it's not the way I want to live my life anymore. And it's all interconnected with my faith in ways that's hard to verbalize.
Love this; totally agree.

If you haven't already, I'd recommend Pope Francis's encyclical on the environment, Laudato Si; it's a Catholic theological take on exactly what you're talking about.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

2 things:

First, my wife has been wanting us to go back to a vegan diet, which I'd been reluctant to do because I wanted to try out a low-carb, keto-type over the summer. The keto thing was certainly effective, resulting in about 15 pounds of weight loss over the course of a couple months; but it was expensive. Anyway, we've now switched back to vegan, and I know everyone on here already knows this, but man can you eat for cheap. Over the weekend I took 2 cups of dry brown rice, 2 cups of dry black beans, an onion, garlic, salt, and water, threw it in the Instant Pot, and made 8 very large servings of black beans and rice in about 30 minutes. I'm hooked. Add in some salsa or fresh veggies or whatever else you want to throw in to spice it up, and I could eat this for 90% of my meals. You just can't beat rice + beans for cheap and convenient, especially when you've got an Instant Pot or other type of pressure cooker.

Second, I'm going to adjust my net worth/FI goals. Instead of a target total net worth of $2.1m (~$1,740,000 excluding home equity and 529), to cover about $5,800 in monthly expenses; I'm going to go with $1,800,000 (~$1,350,000 excl. equity/529), to cover closer to $4,500 in mo. expenses. If I spend the next 3.5 years aggressively paying down my mortgage, then I could get to FI a lot faster than I could if I instead was putting all of my post-tax savings into index funds, because I'll need about $1,300/mo. less if I don't have a mortgage in ER. With a current total net worth of $461,222, that puts me at 25.6% of my $1,800,000 goal.

prognastat
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by prognastat »

Yeah, I'm doing keto at the moment and after doing it for about 7 months and working out for 6 down about 55 lbs. It's definitely a little more costly than if I could use cheap carbs to bulk up my meals, but the improved health and feeling better has been worth it and I still eat for under $5 a day.

Good job on working towards getting those expenses down. It helps both in lowering your stash necessary and also how long it takes to get there.

Hristo Botev
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John Stuart Mill

Post by Hristo Botev »

I have learned to seek my happiness by limiting my desires, rather than in attempting to satisfy them.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

An e-mail I just sent my wife; no chart below because I haven't figured out how to insert images into this forum yet (but it's the standard line graph [from YMOYL?] showing PPI slowly moving up to intersect with monthly expenses):

This is going to be a long e-mail, but please take a look and let me know your thoughts, as we obviously can't make this happen and execute on a plan unless we are both in agreement as to what the plan is.

The chart below is meant to show the point at which we could become financially independent ("FI"), which is the point at which our monthly expenses are less than the amount of money we can safely withdraw from our savings without that savings running out in our lifetimes. The red line shows our monthly expenses, and the blue line shows the amount of money we can safely withdraw from savings. As the chart shows, the FI point (which I've highlighted) is May 2024, when [kid1] graduates from [school1]. At that point, our monthly expenses would be $4,750, and the amount of money we can safely withdraw from savings (not counting home equity or 529) would be $4,753.

This chart assumes the following:

  • $6,000 for monthly expenses before May 2024: mortgage ($1,950); HOA ($200); utilities ($150); cell phones ($90); [school1] tuition ($1,520); aftercare/camps ($340); dog ($50); food/restaurant/consumables ($500); 529 plan ($670 (this is technically savings, but I'm counting it as an expense)); car/gas ($50); clothing ($50); entertainment/gifts/travel ($200); Internet ($20); life insurance ($60); school supplies/stuff ($50); church ($100).
  • $4,750 for monthly expenses beginning in February 2024, which is when we could have the mortgage paid off, resulting in monthly expenses that no longer include principle/interest. Obviously, some of the other expense items will change over time, like we won't always be paying for aftercare, but of course [school2] tuition will be more expensive, and there are things like extra-curricular activities, etc. that will cost money.
  • I will receive bonuses each year, which we will put towards [index fund].
  • From now until February 2024, we will automatically contribute $3,000 extra towards mortgage principal each month, and $2,000 to [index fund] each month, in addition to our normal 401(k), HSA, and 529 savings.
  • From February 2024 until May 2024, we will put the money we had been paying to the mortgage to [the index fund].
  • From May 2024 until May 2027, when [kid2] graduates [school1], we will continue working at least enough to cover our monthly expenses and to max out 401k and to contribute to HSA and 529 plans. But we will no longer automatically contribute money towards [index fund]. We don't have to do this, as technically we will be financially independent by May 2024 enough to cover our monthly expenses (including 529 contributions), but it seems to make sense that we'd continue working at least part time while we have a kid at [school1].
  • After May 2027, when both kids are at [school2], we can choose to either just retire and live off of our savings, or we can continue working in some capacity, whatever we want. We could also decide to rent out our townhouse and move to an apartment closer to [school2], which should further reduce our monthly expenses as I suspect we could rent out our townhouse enough to cover both our apartment rent and also the property taxes, insurance, and HOA fees for the townhouse.


Let me know your thoughts. If you are on board then we should schedule to automatically put $3K/mo. to the mortgage and $2K/mo. to [index fund].


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