Summit with Putin

[TimeTravel]

Well, Trump was right on one thing. His predication of low expectations.

One one hand, the way that so-called summit was shocking, yet at the same time not surprising at all.

The way that news conference played out was like if Trump was a divorce attorney, he said something like, "Go ahead, give everything to your future ex. The future ex is right, you are wrong."

Makes me only thing Putin definitely has goods on Trump. If not a video of some sort then perhaps copies of his taxes.

[Seppia]

I'm interested to hear the opinion of trump supporters on this event.

I mostly have a very negative view of the guy even if I think he has a point on a few matters (nato spending comes to mind), but the press conference was flat out weird.

He's basically bashing his own country's institutions while at the same time saying he trusts a known antidemocratic authoritarian leader, days after throwing mud at the European Union.

[EdithKeeler]

Yeah, you asked for supporters, and I am not. But my opinion anyway: he’s 1) stupid. 2) nuts or 3) someone’s got so much dirt on him and /or debt they’re holding on him and his family that he’s terrified. I think it’s a combination of the three.

I get that we have some problems in this country, and maybe some issues with our institutions, and we have issues with our allies as well as our enemies. Standing next to our “nemesis” and verbally tearing down our own country and long term allies is just.... nuts. He’d do better by America if he’d just stay home and shut up, in my opinion.

[Mikeallison]

I don't see any advantages to war with Russia, I don't see any disadvantages to peace. I also think that if by our "institutions" , you mean the FBI, NSA, and the other superfluous bureaucratic waste, then I believe they currently pose more of a threat to our way of life than anything Russia could cook up.

Russia is a distraction from the absolute rot in Washington. The focus should be on getting our own decrepit house in order, and not worrying about what Russia is up to.

Along that train of thought, Trump didn't win because of election tampering, he won because a large portion of this country thinks that our government is a failure on almost every level, and they either felt he would be a nice way to give them the middle finger, or that he could actually change things.

The problem is the current state of the USA, not Russia. Look inward, not outward.

All that being said he was a protest vote for me. I wish we could have produced better, but at this point I'll elect a wrecking ball everytime over a career politician.

[IlliniDave]

I'm not a supporter either, but I'm not a hater. I have a certain perspective. The "mud" thrown at NATO was to get them to up their readiness. Russia got pretty aggressive with their military during the last administration. Dunno why you'd publicly extol his neighbors to beef up their military readiness if Putin had some nefarious influence on you.

Who knows about the summit. I didn't see the PC but did find it interesting that Putin halfway called Mueller's hand. Will be interesting to see where that goes, but my guess is he'll decline the opportunity to interview the suspects. Trump claims he misspoke when he said he didn't see any reason to think it was Russia (or whatever the statement was), but who knows. FDR chose not to believe his intelligence people regarding Stalin, so stranger things have happened. And I think history would tell us Russia has been at this game of trying to sway politics in the West for more than 50 years, and that we do the same thing, even to our allies. Doesn't make it right but the histrionics (mainly thinking media) are getting to be a bit much. Maybe those should be directed at the people who were in power and knew about the recent Russian antics while they were ongoing and stopped at telling Putin to "cut it out". It's also kind of amusing to see all the knotted knickers when Trump took a publicly tough stand vs N. Korea, then the same knickers knotted when he publicly tries to be more diplomatic with Putin.

Either way, Trump's the president until 2020. After that we'll see.

[Mikeallison]

After that we'll see.

It's this that keeps me up some nights. Whenever I try and imagine what form of crazy the next president will be, my mind keeps curving back to that Yeats poem "The Second Coming".

"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"

Kim Kardashian on deck? Lol.

[Seppia]

I don't see any advantages to war with Russia, I don't see any disadvantages to peace. I also think that if by our "institutions" , you mean the FBI, NSA, and the other superfluous bureaucratic waste, then I believe they currently pose more of a threat to our way of life than anything Russia could cook up.

I wasn't expecting this kind of statement. It is surprising to me as an Italian to read this.
We look up to the USA as the greatest country on the planet, so it is kinda baffling.

I didn't watch the press conference either

I think that may be a great first step in commenting the press conference
I know how most trump supporters feel in general, I was specifically interested in the reaction to this press conference because I think it really crossed the line

[Finn]

What you do have to remember is that Putin is the most serious threat to international peace at the moment. His modus operandi is divide and conquer, literally. Trump did his dirty work for him in Helsinki (by driving a wedge between Western countries), so I’m fairly sure Putin’s got the goods on him.

Putin doesn’t care about being friendly with anyone. He sees friendly as weak. And weakness as something that can be rightfully taken advantage of. Ukraine was weak, so he took what he wanted. He is the only leader I can think of that literally wants to expand his country’s territory in the near future. Kim is a toddler throwing tantrums compared to Putin.

Our country (that played host to this disaster of a summit) has a land border of >1300 km / 800 miles with Russia. My grandparents who are WW2 vets have a saying: Russia will always be Russia. I am shocked that any American patriot would trust them more than their own institutions.

[IlliniDave]

I think that may be a great first step in commenting the press conference
I know how most trump supporters feel in general, I was specifically interested in the reaction to this press conference because I think it really crossed the line

One of the things about Trump is that you just have to accept that he puts his foot in his mouth on a pretty regular basis. And you have to pay more attention to what he does and what actually happens. From the portions of the PC I heard he made one notable statement in his prepared remarks: "I would rather take a political risk in pursuit of peace than to risk peace in pursuit of politics." That sort of sums up the position he's been in since day one. He gets kicked politically by the majority of the worldwide politicians and media no matter what he does. So those who either support him, or are at least willing to accept that he holds the office and hope he does well because we all have a stake in the outcome, tune out most of the hysteria. I saw the first ~25 minutes of the PC and didn't hear anything controversial. I don't meet the Trump supporter criteria you requested but I'll find some time to listen to the rest. I'm aware of the poorly answered question that's got a lot of attention which Trump subsequently clarified, and people will have to decide on their own whether or not they think the clarification is genuine. I'm genuinely interested to find this line that has everyone in the US crying "Treason!". If it's simply that he said something that potentially reveals distrust of certain corners of our unelected government, I'll be unsurprised and unmoved. They have been his political enemies going back before the election (and I think a very large segment of the US population shares the same mistrust). It also appeared to my admittedly untrained eye that between the two of them Trump was the one who had the upper hand in their interaction. What I'd really like to know is what went on behind closed doors, as I'm sure many are.

ETA: Okay so I listened to the second half. That the one remark was a slip of the tongue is plausible in my view, but obviously only Trump really knows. The only two things that I look unfavorably on was Trump bringing up Strzok at the end and democrats at he beginning. Should keep that stuff at home or on his twitter account. I also thought the final questions were an attempt to foment on-stage antagonism between the two leaders and really a little immature. Overall, weak sauce as far as charges of treason go.

[steelerfan]

What is it going to take for trump to cross a red line with his supporters and his cowardly enablers in congress? He truly could shoot someone on Park Ave and not lose votes as he once boasted. I continue to be baffled daily. He is constantly crossing boundaries that no president in our lifetimes crossed. It goes way beyond simply putting his foot in his mouth as Dave puts it. We are in the midst of a slow moving dictatorship. It is his SOP to say something crazy and walk it back the next day. The leaders in congress express mock outrage and then he placates them by saying something that amounts to plausible deniability. Yesterday: I misspoke. It was both sides to blame, but happened before I took office. There were very fine people on both sides. Hillary did the same thing...He says these things, then the walk back. Then they fall in line and all is forgotten. He says things every day that are wrong. It would be simple to say he is a pathological liar but it goes even past that. I do not think he even cares to be correct. He simply says things because he wants to. The republican party has become a cult of personality. Deficit hawks a couple of years ago no longer care about deficits. People who stated russia is our enemy a few years ago now think they are our friend, but Canada,Mexico and the EU are our foes. This is crazy shit. We are at war with Canada - we always have been at war with weak and unfair Canada and Europe. We are being systematically gaslighted.


Our first amendment rights and the freedom of the press are being savaged. He no longer even tries to conduct press conferences and instead relies on Fox news which is becoming state media (TASS). He has talked about jailing journalists. He attacks our intelligence community including people he installed because they state the obvious. He attacks our allies. He attacks NATO and questions whether it is necessary or if we need to come to their aid - like that did for us after 9/11. He weakens democracy in the US and has ceded leadership worldwide. The US has ceased to be a global leader and has turned inward to isolation. Dave, you said it looked like he had the upper hand with Putin I assume. To me it looked like an asset and his KGB handler. Who hasnt trump attacked but Putin? Putin must be very proud. You can barely see his lips move when trump is talking.


There is a reason people running for president have historically provided tax returns and divest themselves from businesses they own. It is to provide comfort that they are not compromised or under risk of being extorted or blackmailed. The fact he refused to do this and continues to profit from his presidency was cause for alarm. This guy goes back decades with russians. He and his kids have stated it. It is recorded. They bailed him out when no one would. Meetings took place. Oligarchs funneled millions in directly and through PACs and the NRA. Vekselberg attended the inaugeration! In the end it probably would be money laundering that would get him. Not some stupid pee tape. I have serious doubts that Mueller will be able to finish before they shut this down. I really wonder if trump will ever leave office other than tits up.


My boss states he is not a trump supporter like many of his non supporters. He claims he does not watch the news. However he sits in his office all day and listens to AM talk radio. When things die down he likes to throw down some cautious little tidbits of "news" and false equivalencies. He knows I am a registered democrat but have historically been a centrist. He likewise is a registered democrat but for the purpose of supporting the weaker candidate in the primary. He doesnt want to talk about trump head on and never watches the press conferences either.

It is convenient to not want to talk about specifics. I voted for Reagan twice and both Bushes once so I am no hard lefty. Some of you dont believe it but I feel we are in a crisis. It is time to pick a side. I am first and foremost an American.

This forum has a libertarian bent and generally skews younger than me. I was more cut and dry when I was younger as well. More sink or swim - my choices are what matter. We need to be respectful and talk to each other as our fellow citizens are not the enemy regardless of whose lever was pulled. I do not want to fight with people that I like as much - as you can like an internet stranger. However I honestly am troubled. We need to pay attention and hold our leaders accountable and have a longer memory than the 24 hour news cycle. Our freedom and democracy is at stake and we are under attack by players that we may not fully realize. I am trying really hard to keep an open mind. I hope we can continue to engage and not be captive to our respective silos, tribes and echo chambers and our social media friends who may be other than they say they are.

[EdithKeeler]

I agree with everything you just said, steelerfan.

[ThisDinosaur]

I keep two different models of Trump in my head.

One model largely agrees with the left's conspiracy view. He either has a history of Russian banking connections he's keeping secret, or he is passively hoping Putin will intervene again in his favor in the next election. He or his son likely knew that Russia supported him, but didn't realize this was not politics as usual.

The other model is that he simply says whatever he thinks people want to hear. He defended Putin over US intelligence because he was standing next to Putin right after their meeting. He desperately wants to be liked. Remember how kindly he spoke about Obama during the transition? Ben Shapiro convincingly argued that his feuds with Comey and Mueller could be explained by a simplistic "I didn't do anything wrong! Why won't those guys just leave me alone!"

But I can't see him as either a criminal mastermind or a brilliant political strategist. I think people who say he is actually intelligent are either pandering or self-deluding. He may very well have been a skilled salesman at some point in the past, but the majority of his success is a consequence of inheriting a large fortune.

[Jason]

I think jumping to "Trump as KGB operative" is leap frogging a step. That's for Mueller to prove.

I view his reluctance to admit Russian meddling no different than if it was "organized militia of fat kids in their basement" meddling. Any meddling undermines his victory which he has demonstrated to be very important to him. And I think its obvious there is nothing but himself and maybe Ivanka that he would not throw under a bus at any given moment when he feels said legitimacy being threatened. To admit to Russian meddling on world stage is commensurate to admitting your victory may not be totally legitimate. I think he answers based on selfish reasons but one can make the case that admitting to or alluding to a tainted victory is a national security concern in itself.

[IlliniDave]

Dave, you said it looked like he had the upper hand with Putin I assume. To me it looked like an asset and his KGB handler.

Yes, that is what I said. It was based on body language and that he took the lead answering jointly-addressed questions. What did you base your conclusion on?

It amazes me how starkly different people can view the same events.

[jacob]

@steelerfan

+1

The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (i.e., the reality of experience) and the distinction between true and false (i.e., the standards of thought) no longer exist. --- The Origins of Totalitarinism (1951)

Trump illustrates this well and by doing so sets the tone of the conversation. We now have facts and alternative facts and apparently no effective way to distinguish them because people rarely leave their algorithmically reinforced [social] media bubbles. You see very very different interpretations of the same event whether you see it on Daily Beast, New York Times, or Infowars ... or BBC or via facebook memes for that matter. People are already operating with different data sets ... and these days, many many people believe that thinking or "doing their research" means googling something until they find a website that supports what they're trying to say. This is apparently how it's taught in high school these days.---or rather what the result is.

What's interesting here, though, is that it temporarily broke through the Fox News silo---that doesn't happen often. Fox News is interesting because that's the bubble Trump is in. Fox wasn't yet ready for the "Russia>FBI,CIA,NSA, ..."-allegiance realignment yet. ("The US is at war with the FBI and friends with Russian Intelligence. The US has always been at war with the FBI and friends with Russian Intelligence.")

(What was kinda missed in all this was that Mueller arrested another Russian operative during all this.)

Newt Gingrich called for a walkback and Fox News found the statements "disgusting" and so we get a walkback because that's how the White House/Fox News feedback loop works.

Somehow the explanation is that Trump is now confused by double negatives Kinda wondering how dumb they think we are? It's a bit like Bill Clinton's "is is"-explanation. This was not just one word in one sentence. This was a "I did not have sex with that woman"-argument using multiple sentences to convince people that there was no there there ... up to an including the old "But Hillary"-fallback defense. But yes, the Fox News bubble will buy the walkback. The regular media will not. However, they will be distracted and move on as soon as some other crazy thing happens ... maybe later this week or by Monday at the latest.

I don't know if Putin has the goods on Trump. I don't think this is what matters here (to explain this press conference). I think this is more Trump (the immature 14-year old (Kegan2) with an ego the size of a planet) being recalcitrant. He just doesn't like the idea that he got an assist from the Russians (who also supported everybody else in the race, except Hillary (due to Ukraine)) instead of winning exclusively due to his own very stable genius.

IOW, he just doesn't like to be told what to do. I think basic teenage-style defiance is key to understanding all his foot in the mouth/shooting himself in the foot moments. Poor foot, btw. If someone tells him he can't do something or shouldn't say something, why then, he must rebel and prove them wrong---after all, he's the only very stable genius in the room. Trump the 14 year old. I really suspect that's about as deep as he is when it comes to dealing with other people.

As for the big picture, when there's no distinction between fact and fiction or true and false, there's really no red line to be crossed. Or rather the red line becomes a moving goal post. You can cross the line temporarily, like here, but it soon becomes normalized.

To most people (Kegan3) what matters is party loyalty, not party ideology (says science). Under this kind of morality, there's no such thing as hypocrisy because all that matters is who did it and not what was done. Okay, it's a bit more nuanced than that... think of it as maybe X percent party loyalty and 1-X percent ideology loyalty.

For "low information" voters, which disproportionally sit on the red side (says science) of the aisle, X is higher than for highly educated (mostly blue) or very rich (mostly red, but few in numbers) voters (says science). Like with climate change, people have various fallbacks for which they can convince themselves that they're still loyal. IOW, theoretically, because loyalty matters more, R could ideologically move to the left of D and drag many voters along with them. D could move to the right of R with the same result.

The lower the X the more it is possible to fall back on a new position before breaking loyalty. Constant lying doesn't matter because at least he's not Hillary. Deficits no longer matter (remember, Cheney said the same thing), because at least we got a taxbreak. Pussygrabing or pornstars no longer matter, because at least we got pro-life. ... and so on down to but at least we got the supreme court justice(s). I suspect that at least to some it's beginning to feel like staying in an abusive relationship.

@Jason -

+1 aka the "Trump First Doctrine". I think that's the depth of his understanding of the issue. As far the international issues Rand Paul (now an apologist?) pointed out that "everybody does it" (meddles in foreign elections). Well, at least people like to pretend we don't.

[IlliniDave]

To admit to Russian meddling on world stage is commensurate to admitting your victory may not be totally legitimate. I think he answers based on selfish reasons but one can make the case that admitting to or alluding to a tainted victory is a national security concern in itself.

I think this is a fair point, and delegitimizing him has clearly has been a motive for a lot of actors. One of his biggest flaws from my perspective is being hyper-defensive. It's a common trait among politicians but he seems to have no ability to steer it appropriately. But the big victory Putin has gained in all of this is that he gets to sit back and watch the US turn on itself and potentially implode politically and probably socially; and it's not Trump who is his primary ally in that endeavor. Trump is just the bait.

[RealPerson]

I agree with Steelerfan and Jacob. Besides the teenage tantrums and him being a psychopath, we should consider dementia as part of the issue. I have heard some Trump interviews from 10-15 years ago, where he sounded intelligent and coherent. Now he rambles on and repeats the same nonsensical phrases ("it is so sad", we are going to have a fantastic this or that"). There is a very noticeable difference. It makes me wonder if dementia or some other type of mental illness is involved here.

Not that mental illness should make us feel better about Trump. If anything, that is more terrifying. It could be that the walk backs of his bloopers the next day are another manifestation of that. It may take him a day to understand how he shot himself in the foot the day before.

About the Russia thing: given Hillary's position on Ukraine, Putin had every incentive to torpedo her campaign and help Trump. He didn't need to collude with Trump for that. So why would he? There does not appear to be any reason for Putin to do that. Plus, evidence of collusion would have been very damaging for Putin if Hillary had won, which was the likely scenario according to the polls.

None of this makes me feel better. We are in a terrifying situation, which may well go on for another 6 years. For whatever reason, Trump voters don't seem bothered by his endless stream of mistakes, or his autocratic tendencies. The democrats are so off kilter that they seem unable to mount any effective opposition. This does not bode well for the midterms or for 2020.

[jennypenny]

As far as the Summit … I’m sure Trump showed up unprepared expecting to bond easily with Putin since they’re both macho guys, but instead of a bromance, Trump got a very public lesson in what real game looks like.

Trump’s faceplant aside, it’s helpful to pan out and look at the larger picture. Both Xi and Trump have been trying to woo Putin into being their +1 in the global balance of power. Xi is doing a better job of it while Putin gets to enjoy being courted by both superpowers. Trump's actions at the Summit were a continuation of said courtship and not a shift in policy.

I’m not sure how Trump’s embarrassing performance at the Summit equates to a threat on our democracy? Yes, the Russians tried to tilt the election but the indictments don’t allege that the attempts were successful or wide-spread enough to affect the outcome of the election. The release of Clinton's private emails definitely damaged her campaign, but they didn't outweigh the original mishandling of the emails and server, her health issues and odd departure from the debate stage, her deplorables comment, her campaign's flawed strategy, etc.

I don’t understand the sudden panic that we’re on the brink of war with Russia. I remember the early/mid 80’s — nuclear threats, crying while watching ‘The Day After’, etc — that was the brink of war. This is not. I also don’t understand calls to have him removed, forcibly or otherwise. I think that would be much more destabilizing than dealing with his unpredictability. One of the hallmarks of the US system is the orderly transition of power from one president to the next. We don’t have votes of no confidence. It takes an extraordinary offense to begin impeachment proceedings and even then it doesn’t automatically initiate a change of power.

As far as taking a stand or choosing a side … isn’t that a big part of the problem? Everyone has chosen a side and we’re shout ^H^H^H^H^H tweeting at each other over the ideological expanse. We need more uncommitteds bridging the gap, not fewer. It doesn’t help to spew hyperbole (nazi! traitor!) or rush the exits every time he opens his mouth, nor does it help to defend stupidity or give him more license than is due someone in that position.

[EdithKeeler]

I don’t understand the sudden panic that we’re on the brink of war with Russia. I remember the early/mid 80’s — nuclear threats, crying while watching ‘The Day After’, etc — that was the brink of war. This is not. I als

I don’t know why anyone thinks we’re on the brink of war. Why war? I think Putin has us right where he wants us. America is rapidly losing power and credibility on the world stage thanks in part—but not all—to Trump. Our current isolationist strategy is creating vacuums that Russia and China are happy to fill. Every trade partnership we pull out of, someone will be happy to take our place. Every alliance we pull out of, there’s someone waiting for our spot. Every time our leader calls the EU a “foe,” we diminish in our allies’ eyes, and you can bet China and Russia are looking for their angle.

[Mister Imperceptible]

I really don’t buy the “Trump is a dictator in the making” shtick. There will be elections in 2020. I barely watch the “news,” because it’s almost all politically-motivated noise.

For the record, I’ve never voted. I’ve never even been registered to vote.

“There is only one party in the United States, the Property Party ... and it has two right wings: Republican and Democrat. Republicans are a bit stupider, more rigid, more doctrinaire in their laissez-faire capitalism than the Democrats, who are cuter, prettier, a bit more corrupt – until recently ... and more willing than the Republicans to make small adjustments when the poor, the black, the anti-imperialists get out of hand. But, essentially, there is no difference between the two parties.”

— Gore Vidal

It will be interesting to see if Libertarians and Socialists can make any in-roads. The Pareto distribution suggests to me: “No.”