http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2011/0 ... UALss.html
Okay, so this is tenement housing, but wouldn't it make a good ERE solution? Do you think it is legal? The hot plates in the rooms seem like fire hazards. It reminds me of dorm style living. In London there are some dorm styled buildings for nurses/firefighters/etc. in order to provide affordable housing for needed professions.
tenement housing
With a sufficiently intentional community, such an arrangement might work in practice, i.e. common agreement about hours for TV/music and hours for silence. More importantly, there would have to be a strong consensus about what sorts of activities are appropriate and acceptible. This tenement was obviously very ethnically homogenous. I'm not certain I'd want to share sound space with Chinese opera, or for that matter, hip hop or deathmetal. And maybe you wouldn't want to listen to my classical music or NPR broadcasts. But laws against discrimination prevent outright bans based on national origin. So there would need to be firm agreement on the front end about minutiae like music choices, permitted and forbidden odors, etc. You'd have to be fairly comfortable with the loss of privacy. As a thought experiment, ask yourself if you'd be able to make love to your SO as unselfconciously knowing that your neighbors' Chinese opera isn't going to distract them from what you've got goin' on.
Here in California, it would be a stretch regarding legality. For certain, there couldn't be any smoking, as that's outlawed statewide in the common areas of current apartment buildings. WRT the hotplates and other electrical devices, I suppose that if the wiring was to code and could handle the load that might pass muster. But as I glimpsed the slides, I wondered how utilities were handled. They obviously aren't individually metered. And in one slide, a resident appears to be replacing the light in a common area. So it looks more like a rental arrangement. A cooperative would fit better for ERE purposes.
The closest CA analogue would be the Single Room Occupancy buildings in many cities's downtowns. They charge by the week; typically feature a single bed, sink and desk; permit a hotplate; and have common bathroom and kitchen per floor.
http://sfhomeless.wikia.com/wiki/Category:SRO_Hotels
This has challenged me to think about whether a developer could build a bare bones multi-unit structure with more privacy and amenities, but a similarly low rental rate. Say an apartment complex with studio units that shared a common bath and kitchen that rented for $300 per month. Would EREistas be willing to live in something like that?
Here in California, it would be a stretch regarding legality. For certain, there couldn't be any smoking, as that's outlawed statewide in the common areas of current apartment buildings. WRT the hotplates and other electrical devices, I suppose that if the wiring was to code and could handle the load that might pass muster. But as I glimpsed the slides, I wondered how utilities were handled. They obviously aren't individually metered. And in one slide, a resident appears to be replacing the light in a common area. So it looks more like a rental arrangement. A cooperative would fit better for ERE purposes.
The closest CA analogue would be the Single Room Occupancy buildings in many cities's downtowns. They charge by the week; typically feature a single bed, sink and desk; permit a hotplate; and have common bathroom and kitchen per floor.
http://sfhomeless.wikia.com/wiki/Category:SRO_Hotels
This has challenged me to think about whether a developer could build a bare bones multi-unit structure with more privacy and amenities, but a similarly low rental rate. Say an apartment complex with studio units that shared a common bath and kitchen that rented for $300 per month. Would EREistas be willing to live in something like that?
@firefighterjeff
That's why I suggest that an ERE facility would only work as a cooperative, i.e. tenants receive a lease as a consequence of being a shareholder in the cooperative. A share might be $40K, recoverable on sale at end of occupancy, and the monthly lease an additional $200, which is the equivalent of $80K at 3% SWR. The shareholder requirement will spare the cooperative from the vast majority of the down and out sorts without involving invidious discrimination. This alone won't exclude the wealthy Chinese-opera fanatic, though. But CC&Rs can deal with some of that issue.
I don't know of any still-existant commune or cooperative of the sort discussed in these forums in present day U.S. But there are several kibutzim in Israel that would provide a model.
If I were going to impliment this, I'd start small (6 to 8 units) and design it to have a fast unwinding process if it didn't take root within a few years. Probably the biggest barrier is finding sufficient urban in-fill land in a city with a less restrictive planning department. Maybe a college town so that a failed development could be converted into student housing fairly efficiently.
That's why I suggest that an ERE facility would only work as a cooperative, i.e. tenants receive a lease as a consequence of being a shareholder in the cooperative. A share might be $40K, recoverable on sale at end of occupancy, and the monthly lease an additional $200, which is the equivalent of $80K at 3% SWR. The shareholder requirement will spare the cooperative from the vast majority of the down and out sorts without involving invidious discrimination. This alone won't exclude the wealthy Chinese-opera fanatic, though. But CC&Rs can deal with some of that issue.
I don't know of any still-existant commune or cooperative of the sort discussed in these forums in present day U.S. But there are several kibutzim in Israel that would provide a model.
If I were going to impliment this, I'd start small (6 to 8 units) and design it to have a fast unwinding process if it didn't take root within a few years. Probably the biggest barrier is finding sufficient urban in-fill land in a city with a less restrictive planning department. Maybe a college town so that a failed development could be converted into student housing fairly efficiently.
I looked for examples of communes and found these:
http://www.ic.org/
http://nyti.ms/qLuvHX
http://nyti.ms/qTm4r3
http://bit.ly/qWNyfV
http://www.ic.org/
http://nyti.ms/qLuvHX
http://nyti.ms/qTm4r3
http://bit.ly/qWNyfV
@ Maus: I lived in Binghamton, NY for several years and my parents and many friend still live there. There are lots of apartment buildings that have that sort of set up. You get a tiny, unfurnished room. There is a kitchen and bathroom per floor. Socializing on the stoop. I lived in two buildings like that, though in both cases I had a unit with my own toilet, shower, and a little two burner stove, mini fridge, tiny sink combo. I liked both places and would live in either one. I met lots of fun eccentric people.
That said, there was a lot of crack and cocaine, prostitution, domestic disputes and at least one person died suspiciously on my floor ("fell" out of communal kitchen window). The kitchens were surprisingly clean because I don't think anyone cooked anything that couldn't be microwaved. The bathrooms were pretty scary. I paid $300 ABP (5-10 years ago) and the rooms were usually $50/wk in several buildings. Binghamton is also not a very desirable place to live, so I would think those would be low compare to rates elsewhere.
I think as a landlord, you'd have to have a definite strategy for how you would provide cheap housing and not attract the people who are attracted to cheap housing, who are generally, not of the ERE crowd. I would live there, but I don't really mind anything short of violent crimes against people who mind their own business and I think those are rare.
There are also apartments in Austin, TX where you can rent an individual bedroom and share a kitchen, bathroom, living room with people in 4 other bedrooms. I haven't lived in one and I think they may restrict them to students to keep them from becoming sketchy.
That said, there was a lot of crack and cocaine, prostitution, domestic disputes and at least one person died suspiciously on my floor ("fell" out of communal kitchen window). The kitchens were surprisingly clean because I don't think anyone cooked anything that couldn't be microwaved. The bathrooms were pretty scary. I paid $300 ABP (5-10 years ago) and the rooms were usually $50/wk in several buildings. Binghamton is also not a very desirable place to live, so I would think those would be low compare to rates elsewhere.
I think as a landlord, you'd have to have a definite strategy for how you would provide cheap housing and not attract the people who are attracted to cheap housing, who are generally, not of the ERE crowd. I would live there, but I don't really mind anything short of violent crimes against people who mind their own business and I think those are rare.
There are also apartments in Austin, TX where you can rent an individual bedroom and share a kitchen, bathroom, living room with people in 4 other bedrooms. I haven't lived in one and I think they may restrict them to students to keep them from becoming sketchy.
Just me personally speaking, this has to be one of the most depressing living arrangements I have seen. I was familiar with and attended an "experimental" housing facility opened near here, whereby this communal housing was built next door to a Turkey plant. (Butterball Turkey). The project was a shared arrangement between the Turkey plant and HUD. The Turkey plant had the responsibility to collect the $100 a week, and forward it to the county housing board. However, in the first six months, the Turkey plant pulled out of it and soon HUD shoved it over to the County Housing Authority. It worked like this: The turkey plant workers paid $100.00 a week from their paychecks for a bed in a room with three other roomers. The locks on the doors had four keys. There was a site manager, but they went through more managers than I can count in the time it was open. The bathrooms looked like something from a 1940 style Army barracks, only updated with the fixtures being more modern. The kitchen served for the entire building. I have no idea how that worked. I think the tenants kept their food items under their bed or in a cooler to prevent theft. Anyway, this whole stupid idea failed and it was soon closed due to thefts, drugs, one murder, and the fact that no one could keep a count on who lived in the mess. Failure to the absolute max, and the creators should have known better. I helped close it up and I had to pull the power panels and cut off the electricity to get people out of it, and that was with the County Deputy by my side. The property was sold and eventually torn down.
This kind of thing is foolish. It is not so much the concept, it is the fact people cannot deal normally with anything which is shared, nor can they assume any responsibility for anything.
In this case, it would have been better and cheaper for HUD to just put these people in two room apartments and be done with it. I was involved in this as I was on the County Housing Board at the time, as an elected member. I also think there was heavy duty graft on the developer-builder end of the game. What was a very nice facility and opened in 1998, was almost non-usable by 2005. The police began to keep a presence there on a frequent basis and finally the police chief appeared at our board meeting and "highly recommended" it be shut down as soon as possible.
This kind of thing is foolish. It is not so much the concept, it is the fact people cannot deal normally with anything which is shared, nor can they assume any responsibility for anything.
In this case, it would have been better and cheaper for HUD to just put these people in two room apartments and be done with it. I was involved in this as I was on the County Housing Board at the time, as an elected member. I also think there was heavy duty graft on the developer-builder end of the game. What was a very nice facility and opened in 1998, was almost non-usable by 2005. The police began to keep a presence there on a frequent basis and finally the police chief appeared at our board meeting and "highly recommended" it be shut down as soon as possible.
@HSpencer
Thanks for the real-world insight. I am definitely not a utopian or naive about the human capacity for depravity. Can't be a prosecutor and fail to learn the lesson that some people just don't play nice with others. Let me make it clear that there is absolutely no way I would live in anything approaching the hell hole depicted in the OP.
But the aspiration that is driving me is the idea that it shouldn't be so hard to have cheap access to a basic locked room and some simple cooking and bathing facilities. Hell, practically every college and university in the U.S. provides this. And in an environment that is generally low-crime and moderate noise. The only difference is that I want it to be on an "ownership" basis rather than a rental to keep the costs stable and to cling to just the slightest illusion of housing security.
Maybe in this day and age it just isn't possible.
Thanks for the real-world insight. I am definitely not a utopian or naive about the human capacity for depravity. Can't be a prosecutor and fail to learn the lesson that some people just don't play nice with others. Let me make it clear that there is absolutely no way I would live in anything approaching the hell hole depicted in the OP.
But the aspiration that is driving me is the idea that it shouldn't be so hard to have cheap access to a basic locked room and some simple cooking and bathing facilities. Hell, practically every college and university in the U.S. provides this. And in an environment that is generally low-crime and moderate noise. The only difference is that I want it to be on an "ownership" basis rather than a rental to keep the costs stable and to cling to just the slightest illusion of housing security.
Maybe in this day and age it just isn't possible.
Expanding on my last post. I am reminded of a hotel I stayed at in the early 1980s in Puerto Vallarta. The room had one window and cinderblock walls, tile floors. Desk, chair, bed, one overhead light. The attached bathroom was designed so that the whole room was the shower, and it included a pedestal sink and a toilet. Again, one overhead light, a mirror, a single shelf and a single towel rack. To clean it, you could literally hose it down with a garden hose and have the effluvia drain down the center of the floor. Probably took the maid all of 5 minutes.
Maybe this isn't your aesthetic vibe, but I thought that setup was more than sufficient. And it rented for the equivalent of about $6 a day in pesos, when the rate was about 1000 to the dollar.
Add a hotplate or single burner, a mini fridge, and some storage. Boom. You've got yourself a cheap urban home.
Maybe this isn't your aesthetic vibe, but I thought that setup was more than sufficient. And it rented for the equivalent of about $6 a day in pesos, when the rate was about 1000 to the dollar.
Add a hotplate or single burner, a mini fridge, and some storage. Boom. You've got yourself a cheap urban home.
"These days, you don't have to live in the boonies, chop wood, walk around nude and pool all your money to live an alternative lifestyle," said Diana Leafe Christian, an Earthaven resident who edits Communities magazine, the quarterly bible of the intentional living movement."
Walk around nude? I might get a charge out of that, but any seeing me would wrap me in a blanket and call my keeper, that is if they could stop laughing long enough!!
Walk around nude? I might get a charge out of that, but any seeing me would wrap me in a blanket and call my keeper, that is if they could stop laughing long enough!!
Hspencer is right: the tragedy of the commons is legit, and there's a good reason we have developed strong property laws. Also I'll note that university dorm living is rarely as cheap as you might expect.
$200 per month is cheap for manhattan, but one lady in the article "rarely" left the 4th floor. That's a total waste, given what you could get in other cities for $200.
Similar reaction for ere- you are saying 80k for a bunk? It seems like most people here would rather get a cheap house in another part of the country. Seems like only UERE (urban ere) would be interested, and UERE seems a minority here.
Whenever you get a mass of humanity, hygeine becomes very important. Honestly the place in the article seemed on from a size and privacy perspective, but how many cockroaches and bedbugs were there? Manhattan has a bedbug problem even in affluent buildings. There is a reason these types of set ups are frowned upon for public health reasons... They make it almost impossible to control the spread of disease.
$200 per month is cheap for manhattan, but one lady in the article "rarely" left the 4th floor. That's a total waste, given what you could get in other cities for $200.
Similar reaction for ere- you are saying 80k for a bunk? It seems like most people here would rather get a cheap house in another part of the country. Seems like only UERE (urban ere) would be interested, and UERE seems a minority here.
Whenever you get a mass of humanity, hygeine becomes very important. Honestly the place in the article seemed on from a size and privacy perspective, but how many cockroaches and bedbugs were there? Manhattan has a bedbug problem even in affluent buildings. There is a reason these types of set ups are frowned upon for public health reasons... They make it almost impossible to control the spread of disease.
I must be the only one who thinks living in that tenement would be great fun for a few weeks. You'd eat like a king and learn so much about Chinese language, culture, games, cooking, etc. And you're in Manhattan!
It would even be interesting to optimize your possessions for fitting in the cubicle, and optimize your cubicle for privacy, sleeping, etc...
And then whenever you get sick of it you peace out giving up the rest of your $100-200. I wouldn't want to live there forever, but it sounds like a great way to spend a few weeks.
It would even be interesting to optimize your possessions for fitting in the cubicle, and optimize your cubicle for privacy, sleeping, etc...
And then whenever you get sick of it you peace out giving up the rest of your $100-200. I wouldn't want to live there forever, but it sounds like a great way to spend a few weeks.
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George the original one
- Posts: 5406
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... -venezuela
Squatting, even a step further down the ladder...
Squatting, even a step further down the ladder...
I wouldn't want to live in that particular tenement building, but thought the communal housing aspect was interesting. While not ideal, I thought the photos conveyed a nice sense of home for those living there. Better there than racking up huge NYC rent bills - there is something to be said for living small.
I wonder if a building consisting of small studio flats would be more widely acceptable to people. I think sharing communal toilets/showers is probably a big hurdle for most first world folks.
I wonder if a building consisting of small studio flats would be more widely acceptable to people. I think sharing communal toilets/showers is probably a big hurdle for most first world folks.
The most living space I ever had in the US Army was at Fort Carson, CO. Our Brigade had deployed up there for a war fighter exercise during the fall of the year. This was to be a field exercise with "everyone" in the boonies in tents. The commander decided that his logistics NCO (me), and his admin NCO would remain "on post" and act as rear detachment for receipt of supplies, mail, emergency messages, visitors from above, etc.
Requesting an office, there was nothing available less an abandoned hospital. This was the old Ft Carson WWII hospital and it was closed except for some of it as storage and other maintenance uses. I was able to draw (get) a whole wing of the hospital. The wing was in various states of repair, so the other guy and I found rooms that had power and water, and we moved things around to set ourselves up with a palace of WWII looking furniture and office and sleeping arrangements. The time was late fall and it was cold. The heat worked, but would not shut off, so we slept with all windows open, even during the snow. We hot wired into the phone system for making both business and personal calls. Lucky for us the old hospital was close to a busy Burger King and we had meals there. (I cannot bear to go in a Burger King to this day--I ate so many "French Toast Sticks" I thought I was going to turn into one). This arrangement went on for one month, and we took turns being on duty. It was what we call a "birds nest on the ground" as far as good duty goes in the Army!!!
Requesting an office, there was nothing available less an abandoned hospital. This was the old Ft Carson WWII hospital and it was closed except for some of it as storage and other maintenance uses. I was able to draw (get) a whole wing of the hospital. The wing was in various states of repair, so the other guy and I found rooms that had power and water, and we moved things around to set ourselves up with a palace of WWII looking furniture and office and sleeping arrangements. The time was late fall and it was cold. The heat worked, but would not shut off, so we slept with all windows open, even during the snow. We hot wired into the phone system for making both business and personal calls. Lucky for us the old hospital was close to a busy Burger King and we had meals there. (I cannot bear to go in a Burger King to this day--I ate so many "French Toast Sticks" I thought I was going to turn into one). This arrangement went on for one month, and we took turns being on duty. It was what we call a "birds nest on the ground" as far as good duty goes in the Army!!!
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BeyondtheWrap
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- Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:38 pm
- Location: NYC
I personally have no qualms with living in a small room with a shared kitchen and bathroom. Dorms were fun in college, after all.
Unfortunately, in college, dorms also cost about $10,000 a year. The shared facilities were acceptable mostly because the janitors would come in to clean every day; this would probably not be the case if it was cheap.
Also, it was a bit easier making friends with neighbors in a college dorm because we were all students at the same school. Outside of college, in such an environment, I'd see a lot more residents keeping to themselves.
Unfortunately, in college, dorms also cost about $10,000 a year. The shared facilities were acceptable mostly because the janitors would come in to clean every day; this would probably not be the case if it was cheap.
Also, it was a bit easier making friends with neighbors in a college dorm because we were all students at the same school. Outside of college, in such an environment, I'd see a lot more residents keeping to themselves.
I'm currently living temporarily in a furnished share similar to this in Chicago. My landlord owns a 4 bedroom condo and rents each room separately.
For $620/month I get a private bedroom (with its own lock), bath shared w one other resident, shared kitchen, and all utilities in a safe and vibrant neighborhood. Everything is furnished except for towel and Linens.
For $620/month I get a private bedroom (with its own lock), bath shared w one other resident, shared kitchen, and all utilities in a safe and vibrant neighborhood. Everything is furnished except for towel and Linens.
I like the idea of inexpensive communal housing, but I would want to do a couple of things differently. I would want to have it in a less urban area where we can have a communal garden like sshawnn mentioned. I would also want to have it function more like a co-op where people have to apply and be accepted. I would also prefer more dorm style housing where there is some privacy. All in all though, I think it's a neat idea.
Has anyone considered building a commune?
Has anyone considered building a commune?