Friendships changing

How to pass, fit in, eventually set an example, and ultimately lead the way.
Farm_or
Posts: 412
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:57 am
Contact:

Re: Friendships changing

Post by Farm_or »

Very interesting sharing on this topic. It seems that a lot of us here have a lot in common since we don't fit well with "mainstream" or my new favorite acronym term for those: "POW's".

We've all got to be strong at being ourselves. I remember talking to a friend of mine decades ago about his interracial marriage. I frankly asked him, " Do you worry about your kids getting picked on? Having trouble fitting in? ".

His time tested classical response was, " If it wasn't that, it would be something else. Every body is singled out for something or another. "

User avatar
GandK
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:00 pm

Re: Friendships changing

Post by GandK »

Riggerjack wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:58 pm
You don't have to agree about everything, in fact, you don't have to agree on anything, so long as you can find a way to agree to disagree. Getting older makes this easier.
...
Maybe you will just be the inspirational guy who does as he likes, thumbing his nose at the system and all the cogs. That wouldn't be so bad, would it? Do you really need your friends to follow your path to stay friends?
@OP: I think this is the best advice for your situation. You're not the same person you were 10 years ago, or maybe even a year ago, and they won't be the same 10 years from now. We're all in transit; it sounds like you hopped on the Interstate and they're driving around in the burbs investigating the usual cul-de-sacs for your time of life. Are they wasting time if they're learning from their experiences? Is it possible they're learning things that you're not? That's worth asking, I think. It would suck to go around ending relationships you otherwise value because of where the other person is "stuck" at today.

Riggerjack
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Friendships changing

Post by Riggerjack »

Ok. I'm going to be a dick for a minute. If what I'm about to say doesn't apply to you, please disregard this as premature senility.
friendly non-pressuring, non-judgmental people
Are not friends. Fuck. They are barely people. Judgement is human. We all do it. We do it in every situation. We do it with everyone we meet and everyone we pass on the street.

Non judgemental people simply don't say what they are thinking. They are just as judgemental, they just don't share their judgement. And that can be nice. When you are different from the herd of humanity (and who here isn't?), You get judged and found wanting far too often. To the point that often, we choose to avoid the judgement. And we take on the friends that don't tell us when they think we are wrong.

Because it's nice to get a break, right?

But the downside is that, well, they don't tell us when they think we are wrong! How messed up will one's life be, when one cuts out that correcting mechanism? How far off course will one stray, if friends don't point out where the current path leads?

I'm a smart guy. My friends are smart guys. And we have all gone down non optimal paths to where we are. But each of those paths would have meandered far more had we not corrected each other. Friends provide feedback. Pets provide unrestricted love and support. Don't befriend a pet, nor expect a friend to be a pet.

Now, I'm a huge dog lover, and I like most dogs more than I like most people (mainly because dogs are better people than most people.). I have learned a lot about life from dogs. But I don't expect the same thing from a friend. A friend is valuable not just for their support, but also for their minds. Their greater understanding of who I am, and how I fit into the world.

And, as we who didn't fit into the precast molds in our formative years, those who learned early to avoid judgement, age and develop, becoming more and better; something strange happens. We ARE better. Not just better than we were, but better than those who judged us. Because we were still growing, while they were fitting in.

From my perspective, I was poor, and poorly socialized. Most schools, I had no friends, when I did make friends, I moved away shortly thereafter. So my twenties we're triage. Just trying to patch up the worst of me and keep going. But by my thirties, I was doing very well. Several long time friends, and nailing down details. Now at 48, I have literally more potential friends than I have time or interest to maintain. I have to make sure I don't overcommit.

This weekend, I'm going fishing with one friend and his son, turning down another fishing trip, I have a housewarming party, and still need to do the garden planting and regular commitments. Now that's not much for extremely social people, but it's almost too much for me. Because I am still the antisocial asshole who has built filters to remove 99% of people before they annoy me. I didn't lower my standards for friends so I could have more. I keep a small number of friends so I can be a good friend to each.

To make better friends, be a better friend. Those who can't match you, will filter themselves out. No need to do this yourself. And maybe, in 5 years, they can come back, and try it again. We are all learning and growing. All at different rates. Everyone I talk to knows something I don't, and if the conversation ends without them getting a chance to share that something with me, that's my fault. And by not giving them the chance to share, I am poorer for it.

Cantankerous rant complete. Feel free to read the next post. Almost guaranteed to be less judgemental. :oops:

Riggerjack
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Friendships changing

Post by Riggerjack »

What? No less judgemental post to stop me from killing this thread? I guess I will just have to do it myself, though that's certainly not my strength.

I always support my friends. I always have their support. But support and approval are not synonymous. Don't mistake disapproval as a lack of support.

For instance, I have a friend who is racist. Not SJW racist, (he dared to disagree!), But gen x racist, someone who has more negative views of people, based on their race. He's Californian, so obviously, he has all kinds of muddled thinking (doesn't like trees, either). But he's a good guy, and he works in n construction, with those same minorities, and when I ask him about that, they are the "good ones". Or "well I didn't mean him." Basically, any time stupid general statements come out of his mouth, I question it. And over the years, all of that has mellowed, and he can see that many of the things he thought, were just wrong. And when we go fishing this weekend, odds are good that he will says something racist as hell, just to get a rise out of me. But his son will be there. And it's good for his son to see that interaction. That there is a range of opinions, and that he will need to chart his own course.

But if he said something racist 15 years ago, and I just shut up and let him spew bullshit unquestioned, he never would have examined his predjudices, he would be limited in his career, and still blaming faceless people for the problems he can't find a better scapegoat for.

So now he blames "libtards". Thanks, foxnuus. :roll: we all make progress as we can.

Now me cutting him off mid rant to question his assumptions probably doesn't feel like approval. It's not meant to. But it is support. It is helping him to sort himself out.

I have another friend, just now buying his first house. But he works graveyard, and doing paperwork, or dealing with daywalkers is a big issue for him. So when he was getting petulant and self sabotaging, it my job as his friend to let him know that he was free to blow off the signing of the mortgage papers, but the only one getting screwed by his attitude was himself and the seller. The mortgage broker doesn't care. The title company doesn't care, it's just gonna be him screwed over,and each time he told the story of how he got screwed over, I would be there to point out that the failure was his. He is signing the papers as I write this.

Friends hold you accountable to yourself. Friends point out the pitfalls ahead. If your friend isn't, what are they doing? And are you so good at achieving your goals that you don't need that?

If so, please tell me how!

suomalainen
Posts: 979
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Friendships changing

Post by suomalainen »

@riggerjack - not really sure what you're ranting against, but I don't disagree with anything you've written. You might be drawing a distinction between "friends" and "acquaintances". All that stuff you wrote is about how "friends" act and how you act if you are a "friend" to someone. But if you're just an "acquaintance", you might be willing to filter them more quickly and/or not willing to invest in them like the OP seemed to suggest. The difference is in the depth of the relationship and some people aren't as adept at (or desirous of) making deep friendships as others.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15907
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Friendships changing

Post by jacob »

@RJ - Alrighty then, seeing as you insist ...

I suspect the "tough love" (in predictor mode) and "I told you so" (when friends don't listen to predictor mode) is an INTJ special service provided with heartfelt enthusiasm but eventually only rendered only to those they/we really care about once we get smarter about who to provide our "tough love" effort towards. INTJ-love is telling your friends how they're wrong while presuming they'll figure out how to fix themselves on their own. All while not realizing they won't won't know how to fix it. Fancy curse that is....

Most other/default love is providing comfort to the wounded (of the predictable and self-inflicted kind) while getting appreciated.--Which feels much nicer.

I do the former stupid thing all the time, but it's not always appreciated. In fact, it's rarely appreciated. But I feel compelled lest I curb myself---and I try to develop that exact habit. Maybe the reason there are so few predictors is that we're just intended to add a bit of tweaking input to the overall gene pool.

The majority of humans are still engaged in currying each other ... making friends feel good; not telling them or fixing their problems in the future, but picking their fleas in the present. I suspect this is genetically driven .. and that this is where we are at this stage. It's only been about 300k years.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 6851
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm

Re: Friendships changing

Post by jennypenny »

jacob wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:18 pm
Maybe the reason there are so few of us means that we're just intended to add a bit of tweaking input to the overall gene pool.
Or maybe there used to be a lot more INTJs but bludgeoning people with the truth lowers an INTJ's chances of procreating. ;)

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15907
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Friendships changing

Post by jacob »

#idiocracy

slsdly
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Friendships changing

Post by slsdly »

I think the usefulness of criticism is predicated on believing that the commentary is made in good faith. When you start to question the friendship, it is difficult to maintain a rational perspective on any feedback you receive.

I try (try!) to be tactful when I make, ahem, suggestions, however my own experiences line up with jacob's. Presenting a perfectly good solution to someone's problem before a person has emotionally accepted the situation is premature; they will inevitably find reasons to dismiss it. What they want (need?) is a sympathetic ear. I also frequently find that people never get to the solution stage -- after all, complaining about some injustice is much easier than doing anything about it. Even I frustrate myself by doing the same at times...

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Friendships changing

Post by Lemon »

Ah INTJ-love. I have previously dished it out in spades not infrequently to responses of 'why do you try and always fix things?!' This is even more so when giving clear options that could work to solve said somewhat self inflicted disaster.

I still don't quite get why that is a problem but I have become much more selective in its use and just let people get on with it and provide emotional support as and when needed/able to do so. Some people just want hugs and validation that it is entirely the universe/society's fault regardless of reality.

I find I have also drifted a way from several friends for similar reasons of drink or profligacy. I will still spend time with some of them (hardcore drinkers/spenders I spend basically no time with), I just try and control the situation so I don't have to do those things. For example last weekend going to brunch at someones house but not drinking because working in the evening (true). I then got the enjoyable morning without drinking and left before a few people got a little too merry for me and with none of the pestering to drink or making other people feel bad because of 'righteousness'. Or alternatively being the person who organises activities (hiking/camping/etc.) which requires slightly more effort than pub but are generally much more fun/healthy/cheaper.

I don't think I have single friend who would be able to be totally on board with ERE if I laid out my game plan now. I have those that are environmentally/ social justice conscious who are smart and I enjoy talking to but see things from the prism of more ethical consumption and or while disliking capitalists so would find my investments abhorrent (not sure if to the point they would stop wanting to talk to me much, not gonna risk it). Then others for various other spheres of life. While it would be nice to have at least one person in 'meat space' who gets it not seeing totally eye to eye does help question your assumptions.

IlliniDave
Posts: 3845
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Friendships changing

Post by IlliniDave »

jennypenny wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:27 pm
Or maybe there used to be a lot more INTJs but bludgeoning people with the truth lowers an INTJ's chances of procreating. ;)
That gave me (card-carrying INTJ) the first true smile I've had in weeks!

thrifty++
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Re: Friendships changing

Post by thrifty++ »

Interesting my two newish friends - 1 and 3 years - who I intensely enjoy spending time with both test as INTJ. Incredible how much in common we have.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 6851
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm

Re: Friendships changing

Post by jennypenny »

I get why most INTJs prefer the company of other INTJs. I don't think it's impossible to cultivate friendships with other types however. The large number of INTPs on the forum shows that there's at least one other type who can tolerate the enlightening-yet-pride-crushing companionship of an INTJ.

The point buried in my comment is that it's not the truth-telling that puts other people off but the delivery. Most INTJs are smart enough to learn the social skills needed to finesse the truth a little while still be faithful to their nature. It's the difference between leaving a thoughtfully-worded note in a mailbox versus tying a blunt note to a brick and throwing it through a window.

----

As far as friendships changing, I made the mistake of letting too many go after seeing the ERE light. Some were useless social interactions that were a waste of time. Some were only related to kid activities and now that my kids are grown they aren't necessary. Some, though, were people (and family) that I dismissed too easily because they didn't understand our life choices. I don't understand theirs either yet they were still willing to maintain a close relationship with me. It was a little intolerant on my part and I'm trying to repair those relationships. If they are a net positive in my life, respect my choices even if they don't understand them, and are willing to meet me half way on issues that are important to me, then I want them in my life and I'll treat them with the same respect.

Even though I enjoy/need a significant amount of time alone like many here, that doesn't make friendships and social capital any less important. In a way, I need to be more cognizant of how I choose to spend my social time since I devote less energy to it than to other activities. Spending a little more money than I'd like or indulging in a little consumer hedonism to please friends and family seems reasonable since it only happens occasionally. In practice, that means finding (and treasuring) people who sometimes want to do spendy things or go to events/on vacations that I think are too comsumer-ish, but who are also willing to spend nights with me eating my homemade dinners, playing board games, and sitting in front of the firepit while I burn my junk mail and trash.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Friendships changing

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

As an XNTP, hanging out in a forum full of INTJs, as opposed to a more varied group, seems kind of like bouncing rubber balls off of a wall, as opposed to a potential minefield. OTOH, ENTJs seem kind of like bulldozers to me.

FruGal61
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:06 am

Re: Friendships changing

Post by FruGal61 »

@riggerjack....I enjoyed your rant. ;-) I ranted, too. True, we are all judgement machines. However, when one gets to "a certain age", one does not enjoy unsolicited advice, criticism or uber-competitiveness from friends. That's what I was trying to say. And ok, maybe I speak for myself. Maybe some people in my age group want friends telling them what to do. I find most people resent this. Again that's what I was trying to say. As a female, I find this to be more acute in groups of women. If you're not keeping up with the Sally Joneses, some of them like to let you know.

At this point, I am well aware of my perceived weaknesses or failings. For example, I do not need well-meaning friends (usually always female) looking down their entitled, consumerist nose at me and advising "you really should buy" (a house). This said friend got her completely paid off house in a divorce. How nice for her. She talks about said house ad nauseum. So, I've gently distanced myself from her. She has other personal problems that she would not enjoy me pointing out. She is well aware of them. In the meantime, I am milking my cheap rent while I watch the housing market climb to unprecedented heights. Maybe I'll end up in a yurt. Will my friend judge me or accept me for just being someone who lives in a yurt? Another 55+ plus female friend who just bought a house for the first time told me she also was a recipient of such unrelenting peer and family pressure and now realizes in her case that "misery loves company". She is not enjoying home ownership and wishes she kept renting.

Another example, I have one friend who is keeping tabs on my technology status. I do indeed have a cell phone but it is not "smart". Ok, it's an ancient flip phone. I like it - it feels into my hand, my pocket. I am not a slave to "notifications". However, in her eyes, it's not good enough because "everyone has a smart phone now". She can still call and even text me. Yet she feels I, like everyone else, needs to carry around a computer all the time. Indeed, I have a fancy laptop that I am quite adept at as well as an iPad. This friend seems to feel the need to judge and tease me based on not having a smart phone. I find this very odd but it's just another example of "fitting in", not keeping up. I have known her for 20 years. I could judge, tease and mock her on any of her perceived faults or weaknesses (some of which in my opinion are glaring) but at our age, I realize this person is probably not going to change and she will not appreciate any of my comments about her perceived faults or weaknesses unless she does something really egregious. I accept her imperfection and let her be "who she is". She's an adult and she'll figure it out. If she asks for my advice or help, I am more than happy to comply but I will always try to be compassionate and gentle for fear of hurting her feelings.

For something like buying one's first house and you see your friend making errors, I'm sure your friend appreciates your help and does not take it as judgement or criticism. It is ALL in the delivery. I would also gladly accept such helpful advice if the delivery was kind and non-judgy.

I don't like feeling pressured or looked down upon by my friends if I am not at their level of materialism or consumerism, that was my point. Cheers and carry on! :D

wood
Posts: 355
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Friendships changing

Post by wood »

I don't like feeling pressured or looked down upon by my friends if I am not at their level of materialism or consumerism, that was my point.
People want validation, to feel important and to be liked. People include me, you, our friends and most everyone else. We don't like to be criticized for our ERE lifestyle and it's just the same with our friends - they don't like to be critisized for their choices. What happens to a friend who, in seek of validation, receives criticism instead? Many will grow resentful and the friendship might fade.

As much as our criticizm is made with honest well wishes, I have realized much comes down to how you tell them and what your motive is. Is it your intention to change the other person? If you wish to change and influence people, and get them to your way of thinking, I suggest reading How to Win Friends and Influence People (Dale Carnegie). It deals directly with these issues. If you don't wish to change them, why critisize? Why not just listen and show appreciation instead? That's what most people want and if you do it well they will return the favour.

If you wish to let friendships end because they critisize you too much, that's fine. Know that they, like most of us, probably critisize you while wishing you the best.

User avatar
Sclass
Posts: 2791
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:15 pm
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Friendships changing

Post by Sclass »

FruGal61 wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:46 pm
At this point, I am well aware of my perceived weaknesses or failings. For example, I do not need well-meaning friends (usually always female) looking down their entitled, consumerist nose at me and advising "you really should buy" (a house). This said friend got her completely paid off house in a divorce. How nice for her. She talks about said house ad nauseum.
I have one of these friends. She always talks about her $3,000,000 home. She got 1/2 of it from her ex for $200,000 a long time ago.

I’m just starting to understand her. After years of visiting her and having to listen to her brag about how much her house has gone up ( and how I rented mine) I realized this was her prop. She needed something to shore up her self esteem in a highly competitive environment (Palo Alto CA) where she felt like kind of an underachiever (she was a lunch lady at a local middle school). For years I’d just think “oh here we go again” when she’d remind me how she owned the place and I rented.

Then I realized she wasn’t being judgy. She was just trying to hold her head up. Validation. Recognition. A lot of other things she did started making sense. Her luxury car that she could barely afford to keep. Her expensive jewelry that she’d bring to social gatherings and talk ad nauseoum about. Yeah, I have the same friend.

It’s all about her and about 5% about me. Not to worry.

She likes to pigeon hole everyone and has a mental ladder where everyone she knows sits on a rung. It makes her feel good.

And, she’s one of the most critical of my retirement. I think I just upset her representation of reality. Her model just doesn’t have a place for me. Well it does, at some low spot, but when she looks hard down there I’m not there. And it bothers her.

The best thing I did was nod my head at her “judgy” ness and just do my own thing. She is one of the close friends who no longer wants to talk. I think it is too disturbing for her reality.

It’s not always about you. What I’m finally starting to grasp is that most of my friends who did this kind of thing sucked as people and friends . Then and now. Continuing to socialize with them is a choice I make.

Riggerjack
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Friendships changing

Post by Riggerjack »

INTJ-love is telling your friends how they're wrong while presuming they'll figure out how to fix themselves on their own. All while not realizing they won't won't know how to fix it. Fancy curse that is....
Nobody likes hearing they are wrong. Friends are worth learning to talk to. So my preferred method is to listen, to the whole story, then ask them what they see when looking at it *like this*? Because that is where my strength lies, in flipping perspectives. Telling them how to fix something, in the way I would fix something is a waste of my time and their attention. Proposed fixes run against all their defenses. Asking them to look at the situation differently engages their brain without triggering their prebuilt box they use to contain the problem.

For example, one friend was complaining about her boss at the new job. Just interpersonal conflict, but she'd taken a big raise to move to a new company, where everything was great, but her boss. Her husband had already given his advice, similar to take him out to the woodshed. I said the guy is a problem because of his proximity. So move him away. Get him promoted, help him move sideways, help him focus elsewhere. All of these are potential solutions, that allow her to get comfortable with the new place, and shine on her own, without creating further issues. Everyone at work already knows your boss, so the only thing you can reveal is how you deal with him. Nothing in that advice suggests a problem with her. No reason to get defensive. Just an alternative set of solutions being offered, that she has to reason out and choose. That's what I mean by helping friends.

As to the friends vs acquaintances question, it hadn't occurred to me that acquaintances were worth any effort. What little effort I give to acquaintances is negative. Most people are better at a distance, the more distance the better. But maybe I am more introverted than most.

thrifty++
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Re: Friendships changing

Post by thrifty++ »

@Sclass - a lunch lady at the local school who brags about her 3 million dollar house and struggles to afford her expensive car and jewellery and looks down her nose at you. My god she is the antithesis of ERE. No wonder it is difficult to get on.

NPV
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:41 am

Re: Friendships changing

Post by NPV »

thrifty++ wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 2:20 pm
@Sclass - a lunch lady at the local school who brags about her 3 million dollar house and struggles to afford her expensive car and jewellery and looks down her nose at you. My god she is the antithesis of ERE.
Not necessarily. If she owns her $3M house outright, she could sell it and would be retired instantly with a close to 6-figure income at a ~3% SWR :D

Post Reply