So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

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TimeTravel
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So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by TimeTravel »

Trump fired Comey, Trump just fired McCabe.

So, what happens if things get too hot under the collar and he goes ahead and fires Mueller?

My hunch (just a hunch) says that he will eventually do this.

Tyler9000
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by Tyler9000 »

No opinion on Mueller, but Trump didn't fire McCabe. Sessions did, following the recommendation of the FBI Office of Professional Responsibility who found after their own internal review that McCabe indeed deserved to be fired.

TimeTravel
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by TimeTravel »

Yeah, true, "officially", Trump didn't fire McCabe.

But back to the original question, why can't Trump just fire Mueller and if things get hot under the collar start pardoning everyone and himself? Then let things get tied up in courts at least til end if his term? Sounds like a crazy questions, I know, but not too crazy compared to everything else.
Last edited by TimeTravel on Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jason

Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by Jason »

It's not crazy at all as Trump has been effectively eliminating all those who would oppose such a firing. It might even be a chance for His son-in-law to be brought back into good graces by recommending it as he did the Comey firing.

It has always been understood that in order for a democracy to perpetuate itself, everyone, including the President, has to be subject to the rule of law. A president terminating law enforcement investigations of himself directly opposes that idea. Along with separation of powers, multiple party system, the electoral college (oh well) and eventually term limitations, it was one of the ideas that was always seen as a hedge against despotism. I think the big question is how does Congress (the Republicans) respond to the firing, if it does in fact take place. If Congress doesn't protest, then Presidential behavior is only regulated by term limitations and we could enter a full blown Constitutional (principal) crisis as the "why" carries great significance - foreign intervention in our political process and not a mere cum stain (sovereignty of nations may be the most valued universally held political concept). If Congress does protest, and impeachment hearings proceed, you have a presidency mired in scandal (practical crisis). I am assuming weighing the pros and cons is the main topic of discussion of Trump's new braintrust but it goes without saying that Trump wants to Apprentice Mueller. I just can't figure out why he wouldn't. He's a drama queen, it guarantees the focus remains on himself, he loves fighting for its own sake, Melania would love him for it as it helicopters her out of her personal hell, there are no real consequences to him personally (he will never go to jail), he goes where Roy Cohn didn't even go, and it would be great for the brand. I mean how does a guy like him resist it? It's like Tiger Woods denying himself the opportunity of following up a round of golf with pancakes and a car job from a Perkins waitress.

Jason

Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by Jason »

The thread topic posed the question as to what happens if Trump fires Mueller. I don't see how that basic question implies that "Trump is Evil and Hillary Clinton's Vagina Smells Like Freshly Baked Chocolate Cookies." It's not to say Clinton would not have found herself in the same position if she had won. If you take the question literally, without politicizing it, you can try to extrapolate what will happen whether you voted for him or not or what the background to the firing is. Its simply a matter of a sitting President terminating an investigation into his conduct and what will be the political and legal ramifications of said firing, if any.

BRUTE
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by BRUTE »

"Russia collusion" is their birther moment.

Jason

Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by Jason »

You mean that time when despite the accused party's contention that it was an absurd claim, an evidential document was provided in deference to the rule of law?

Ok, I guesss from that vantage point the analogy works in a shoe being on the other foot kind of way.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by ThisDinosaur »

ffj wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:19 am
Collusion ( the original intent ) at this point seems to be off of the table and now the focus is on tampering or whatever else catches Mueller's eye.
I'm not so sure of that. You have to remember that "collusion" is not a legal term, and "treason" only applies when collaborating with a country we are at war with. (Lawyers please fact check me.)

I admit this is taking longer than I thought it would, but impeachment proceedings and the investigations beforehand often take years. Clinton and Nixon were both in their fifth year of the presidency when proceedings began. It took over a year for them to impeach Johnson before the senate acquitted him. So it may be that Mueller is waiting to construct an ironclad case (and the midterm elections) before bringing charges.

It seems very likely to me that either Clinton or Trump's campaign, having been approached by a foreign national with dirt on their opponent, would say something like, "yes, I want this public and No, I don't want to be associated with putting it out." Clinton forwarded dirt to the FBI, and Trump let Wikileaks do it. The dirt in question: Clinton nefariously, but not illegally, influenced the outcome of a primary. Trump's campaign was staffed with individuals who had been groomed as potential Russian assets.

The one thing that makes me think Mueller may yet find a smoking gun is this: why can't you get Trump to say anything negative about Putin? He is a textbook narcissist who makes up condescending nicknames for anyone who dings his reputation. Yet the entire country is calling him Putin's bitch on a daily basis on national television, and Trump will not make any moves to even make it appear that's not the case. The only way that makes sense to me is if Trump knows Putin has something on him.

Mikeallison
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by Mikeallison »

BRUTE wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:16 pm
"Russia collusion" is their birther moment.
Amen to that.

I don't think he will have the guy fired. Seems like Trump either has nothing to hide, or he covered his tracks well enough he isn't worried about it. I think unless they try and hook him on some bogus perjury charge, or some unrelated charge like money laundering, He is content to let Mueller spin his wheels. The longer this nonsense goes on without results, the less the public cares. If he fires him, it looks like he is hiding something.

I'm not sure what the end game is the democrats are trying to pursue. If they get him via impeachment, or the 25th amendment Then what? Democracy continues on? Trump steps down without a fight? The millions of Americans who put him in office will take the "swamp" ousting their messiah laying down? Seems more likely that would open up a much nastier can of worms than they anticipate. Better do it at the ballot box, all other measures would cause some serious civil unrest.

plantingourpennies
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by plantingourpennies »

Constitutional crisis, with protests at the local and national level.

In a democracy, nobody is above the law. This is one of the differences between living in a dictatorship or a representative democracy.

It's not about Trump's guilt or innocence, it's about living as a citizen and not a subject.

plantingourpennies
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by plantingourpennies »

BRUTE wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:16 pm
"Russia collusion" is their birther moment.
The Mueller investigation is potentially much bigger than collusion (and indeed, the term collusion is never mentioned in the original order). It's about the rule of law primarily, but also the serious possibility that Trump's business practices mean that a foreign power (Russia) has compromising information on him. This information could be piss tapes, but could also have to do with money laundering, gray-area investments that have gone undisclosed, prostitution, or simply the ability to show the world that Trump isn't nearly as wealthy as he claims.

Order No. 3915-2017: https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-relea ... 1/download

The Birther conspiracy theory was made up of whole cloth-there was never any reality to it. On the other hand, it is a fact that Trump fired the FBI director, and then admitted on television that he did so because of the Russia investigation. There comparison between the birther conspiracy and the firing of the FBI director is deeply flawed.

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Seppia
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by Seppia »

The answer is, probably, nothing.
It seems like anything Trump may do, there is a large chunk of the american population that will find a way to rationalize and justify it.

Trump has been extremely smart and has a good feeling of what he can get away with, he often dips his toes in the water and then acts.
The amount of stuff the Republican party is willing to put up with is amazing to me (not releasing taxes, not separating himself from his businesses and hiring his family members in top advisor positions are the worst).

It is really similar to what happened in italy during the Berlusconi times: almost half the country was backing him while the rest of the world watched in a mix of amusement and disbelief.

George the original one
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by George the original one »

Seppia wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:43 am
It is really similar to what happened in italy during the Berlusconi times: almost half the country was backing him while the rest of the world watched in a mix of amusement and disbelief.
This!

TimeTravel
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by TimeTravel »

Seppia wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:43 am
I actually think Trump's best survival strategy is to take his chances and fire Mueller. Like you said, the party that he is listed as belonging to may just do a Pontius Pilate and try to wash their hands. The alternative is if Democrats gain control after mid-terms and the Russia investigation is still going on, slimmer survival odds.

Tyler9000
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by Tyler9000 »

Personally I think it's prudent to wait for the upcoming OIG report on their investigation into FBI and DOJ election machinations before jumping to any conclusions. Remember, early findings from that ongoing Horowitz investigation are what justified the McCabe firing, got Strzok kicked off of Mueller's team for blatant political bias, and called attention to the entire FISA abuse issue. Trump's best play is to wait until the inspector general exposes the politicization of the FBI and DOJ in clear and thorough terms, as for all we know the entire premise of the special counsel investigation may be discredited in the process.

jen
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by jen »

If he does, the same as today (constant hysteria), except more. More Republicans attack him. Can't imagine he will at this point. He is doing public relations, which is what will matter if impeachment comes.

What is much more interesting is how far Horowitz will go in presenting all the evidence of DOJ and FBI corruption. And Sessions in prosecuting it. Apparently, he is quietly doing something. And only a tiny fraction of the OIG documents have been made public.

According to Sharyl Attkisson, Trump was attacked less for what he's done than what a potential threat he represented to corrupt law enforcement with his "drain the swamp" rhetoric. She has doubts about Horowitz as he has refused to turn over information in the case of her being spied on by Obama's government after reporting on its scandals at CBS. Even pro-Trump Fox when they interview her, don't let her say much about her case. It doesn't look good that the stonewalling continues well into the new administration.

http://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/376 ... y-not-be-a

Unaccountable agencies with the power to spy on and jail anyone, who can manufacture, hide, manipulate or destroy evidence as they please, depending on how it affects their holding onto power, seem a lot scarier than any one elected official. The more that comes out about Mueller the less credible he seems as well. Can it be a surprise that the more Trump is attacked by these entities the more support he will have?

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jennypenny
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by jennypenny »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:48 pm
The one thing that makes me think Mueller may yet find a smoking gun is this: why can't you get Trump to say anything negative about Putin?
Because Trump has always believed China is the biggest threat to the US, not Russia. It's one of the few positions on which he's been consistent over the last 30 years. Russia is a political adversary but China is an economic one. Trump commented a long time ago that if China could ever figure out how to harness its resources economically (including its people), it would dominate everyone. That's why Trump thinks we should be allies with Russia -- to counter China's economic 'might'. It's a common divide in DC ... Some think politics defines the hierarchy of nations, and those that do fear Russia. Others think economics define the hierarchy and they fear China.

TimeTravel
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by TimeTravel »

Looks like the plot thickens :o after the FBI raid of Trump's personal lawyer.

enigmaT120
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by enigmaT120 »

jennypenny wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:05 am

Because Trump has always believed China is the biggest threat to the US, not Russia. It's one of the few positions on which he's been consistent over the last 30 years. Russia is a political adversary but China is an economic one. ... That's why Trump thinks we should be allies with Russia -- to counter China's economic 'might'.
I'm not really passionate about the topic (indifference is bliss) but I think I agree with Trump on this one. Now I need to go wash my hands.

EdithKeeler
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by EdithKeeler »

Again, I thought Mueller was supposed to be investigating whether Trump colluded with the Russians. I'm failing to see how Trump screwing an adult actress 11 years ago constitutes Russian meddling in the election. What will be interesting in a sad way is how the lies will be spun about the payoff and I hope Trump has learned something from the Clinton fiasco with Lewinsky if for no other reason that this a a gross overreach of Mueller.
Actually Mueller is allowed investigate “any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump,” as well as “any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation.” So basically any wrongdoing he discovers investigating his main thing, he’s free to address and to advise the proper authorities.

The issue is not Trump screwing the porn star—hell, no one’s surprised at that, not even Melania. The issue is the payoff—who authorized it? How was it funded? Did Trump know? Mueller has a duty to follow up on that—if Trump didn’t pay it, someone did, and rest assured Cohen did not fund it out of his own pocket, no matter what he says.

Personally, I don’t think Trump knew about the payoff. I think it either came from a slush fund established years ago—“Mike, I’m putting aside a million bucks in this special account. Just use it when you need to clean up stuff for the family. I don’t want to know about it—I want my tiny hands to be clean.” If that’s not the case then I think some business ally—perhaps in Russia, perhaps not—slipped Cohen the cash in return for a past favor or a favor to be named later.

I think It would be a big mistake for Trump to fire Mueller. If he does, number one, it takes us further down a slippery where rule of law goes out the window and integrity means nothing. And number two, Democrats and some Republicans are not going to stand for it if he does, and I don’t think he’s got enough supporters in his corner to overcome it. Trump would be much better off not commenting on the investigation, if he had never commented on the investigation, other than to say something along the lines of “we trust the special counsel to do his job properly, and we are confident that he will find no evidence of wrongdoing. We won’t comment further until the investigation has concluded.” And stick to it. I think Trump can’t keep his yap shut, though, and still after over a year has little appreciation for his role as president and the nature of the office, how it’s perceived in the world. He has no sense of history—either past or future—and I think he is is doing irreparable harm to our institutions of the FBI, judiciary, etc. with his constant put downs and criticism. (I’m not saying they don’t have problems, but he needs to address the problems rather than paint with the broad brush).

I think he may fire Mueller. If he does, though, it will be the stupidest thing he’s done as president, in a long list of stupid things.

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