Guns in America

Should you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle or from the end?
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Riggerjack
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Re: Guns in America

Post by Riggerjack » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:13 am

Well, as I said, I'm a single issue voter, and this is that issue. But even I was cool with losing bump stocks. Faster than semi auto, slower and less accurate than full auto, and unreliable. The worst of all worlds, defending the right to bump stocks was strategically sound, but horrible tactics for the NRA.

TD, you are equating gun violence with violence. Easy enough to do in our culture, and that is the default position as a non gun guy, that you have been trained to do. But I have faith that if you apply yourself, you can see the distinction between the presented arguments on both sides.

Firearms empower the little guy. In a world without them, we go back to size, training, and numbers as the determining factors of behavior.

Firearms are an egalitarian force in our society. They empower the little guy. The people with power have to factor in that the guy they want to push, may have a surprising amount of push back.

We can talk all day about the damage people do with guns. Or knives. Or cars. Or tobacco. Or partially hydrogenated oils, but if we are only talking about one side of any subject, we aren't interested in the reality, we are interested moralizing. And if that is all one is looking for, I'm not interested.

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Guns in America

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:42 am

Riggerjack wrote:Firearms empower the little guy. In a world without them, we go back to size, training, and numbers as the determining factors of behavior.
Off the top of my head, I would suggest that you are forgetting spying, sabotage, basement publication, passive resistance, trickery, fire accelerants, snares and clever use of toxins as possible "little person" options.

Jason
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Re: Guns in America

Post by Jason » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:50 am

I would like to add internet trolling to that list.

rube
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Re: Guns in America

Post by rube » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:52 am

I compared the amount of guns and amount of death by guns in western countries with 25 or more guns per 100 inhabitants:
(number of people killed per 100K inhabitants) : (# of guns per 100K inhabitants) = %

 Finland 0.012%
 United States 0.010%
 France 0.009%
 Austria 0.009%
 Canada 0.006%
 Norway 0.006%
 Sweden 0.005%
 Iceland 0.004%
 New Zealand 0.004%
 Germany 0.003%

And the number of guns owned per 100 inhabitants:
 United States 101.05
 Sweden 31.6
 Norway 31.3
 France 31.2
 Canada 30.8
 Austria 30.4
 Iceland 30.3
 Germany 30.3
 New Zealand 30
 Finland 27.5

And the actual number of deaths per 100K inhabitants due to guns:
 United States 10.54
 Finland 3.25
 France 2.83
 Austria 2.63
 Canada 1.97
 Norway 1.75
 Sweden 1.47
 Iceland 1.25
 New Zealand 1.07
 Germany 1.01

Not taking into account all kind of other possible factors, my conclusion is that the high amount of guns in the USA results in substantially more deaths due to guns.

I'm not saying that shootings and killings won't happen if there are less guns, they will, but there will be simply less death by guns. Wouldn't that fact alone be sufficient to think about how people in other countries like Canada behave with guns and why this is so different from the USA?

Source data: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... death_rate

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Guns in America

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:22 pm

Americans: simply higher skilled in killing. It is known.

George the original one
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Re: Guns in America

Post by George the original one » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:26 pm

Mass shootings, particularly school shootings, are always planned in advance by a person/group bent on completing their action. The perpetrators consider how to work around security and resistance. The perpetrators often glorify going down in a blaze of glory.

This is why turning schools into armed camps is not going to be particularly successful. If the perpetrators are intent on acting, then they'll figure out that a bomb might be more effective than a gun and knowledge of bomb-making is "out there" for any junior high student to replicate. Has been "out there" since at least WWII, when the US army published field training manuals which made their way into private hands. I know we could order the manuals out of the Loompanics catalog (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loompanics) and from Paladin Press (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin_Press) in the '70s and had high school friends who did so.

In 1980-81, my freshman year at Oregon State University, one acquaintance liked building his own firecrackers and eventually got in trouble for making a rather large one that left a crater in the concrete at the center of the quad dormitory. If he'd been a disenfranchised nut case like the school shooters, he certainly had the capacity to do damage that would not have been prevented by armed guards at a school.

Thus, as jennypenny alluded to, reducing mass shootings will require a different approach for resolution.

IlliniDave
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Re: Guns in America

Post by IlliniDave » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:52 pm

George the original one wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:26 pm
Mass shootings, particularly school shootings, are always planned in advance by a person/group bent on completing their action. The perpetrators consider how to work around security and resistance. The perpetrators often glorify going down in a blaze of glory.
Better they go down in a blaze of glory unsuccessfully trying to get inside a school than by their own hand once inside and tired of shooting kids. These aren't spec ops soldiers doing the attacking.

I don't think bombing has the same visceral appeal to these particular individuals because it is not personal enough. But that's a great argument against banning guns! :)

I think ultimately you are right (and jp) this is a pyschological problem, not a gun problem, at its core. But until/unless that nut is cracked I'd prefer these guys face trained professional fighters prior to waltzing straight into a school to shoot at my grandchildren. And I do believe it would deter some of them. Of course, that may just move the crime scenes to other places where kids gather, but it protects the biggest predictable concentration of them.

ducknalddon
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Re: Guns in America

Post by ducknalddon » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:19 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:13 am
Firearms are an egalitarian force in our society. They empower the little guy. The people with power have to factor in that the guy they want to push, may have a surprising amount of push back.
Can you give an example of where an armed insurrection has pushed back against the state in recent history. It seems to me the state will always reply with far more force than you can raise.

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Sclass
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Re: Guns in America

Post by Sclass » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:22 pm

rube wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:52 am
. Wouldn't that fact alone be sufficient to think about how people in other countries like Canada behave with guns and why this is so different from the USA?
Source data: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... death_rate
I think you can dig this out of your data. It’s in there. Long arms.

We have a lot of pistol violence in the US. I don’t think Canada has a lot of handguns. Although we see these massacres going down with AR15 rifles and high capacity mags taped together I believe the majority of gun violence in the US is handgun.

I think Obama actually said this while showing a statistic that most killings in Chicago were five shot .38 revolvers. How’s that for banning semi auto? These guys are knocking each other off with simple wheel guns.

This is a tough problem. I don’t think there are any real answers. Japan? Not gonna happen in the USA in my lifetime. So even total prohibition isn’t a solution.

I’m not up on the stats but I feel something has changed. Gun massacres happened in my childhood but not like now. Is it the availability of media? Political agenda? Crap mental care? Maybe we should be looking at more than the guns.

Edit - a Canadian buddy once told me the US won its independence with a gun, Canada won it with a pen and paper when I asked this question. :lol:

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Sclass
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Re: Guns in America

Post by Sclass » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:33 pm

ducknalddon wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:19 pm
Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:13 am
Firearms are an egalitarian force in our society. They empower the little guy. The people with power have to factor in that the guy they want to push, may have a surprising amount of push back.
Can you give an example of where an armed insurrection has pushed back against the state in recent history. It seems to me the state will always reply with far more force than you can raise.
Iraq.

George the original one
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Re: Guns in America

Post by George the original one » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:29 pm

IlliniDave wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:52 pm
I think ultimately you are right (and jp) this is a pyschological problem, not a gun problem, at its core. But until/unless that nut is cracked I'd prefer these guys face trained professional fighters prior to waltzing straight into a school to shoot at my grandchildren.
Unintended consequences...

What is the required ratio of trained staff per school and number of students? How much are you willing to pay in increased taxes for the required number of trained staff in a public school?

We on this forum increasingly have attacked schools as being assembly-lines or being prison-like and thus irrelevant for real learning, what message does it send when you have an increasing number of armed guards? Are students more or less likely to become disenfranchised?

IlliniDave
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Re: Guns in America

Post by IlliniDave » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:23 pm

GTOO, I think it would be a function of the campus specifics not the number of students inside, basically as a function of the number of entry points to the areas occupied by students. The HS my daughters went to had only one way inside during school hours, and the first person you saw on the way in was an on-duty police officer. Make that 3 and 2 of them SWAT officers and you're good for any school incident I've heard of. Probably something on the order < $100/student/year for that school.

I haven't been part of any school attacking around here. I even like my job and country okay, and have friends aligned with both political parties. Kids in a lot of places are used to having cops at the school. Some big city schools funnel kids through metal detectors and search bags on the way in as well as have a police presence. Nobody minded it when that stuff was introduced under the guise of keeping drugs away from kids. It isn't a good thing but it is better than some alternatives. I don't see a more sensible interim measure while people sit around and debate why these guys do what they do and how to stop them before they actually do anything. When that problem is solved we can go back to school atmospheres of the 1950s.

Of course the other option is home school, and parents can do whatever makes them feel best in terms of protecting their kids at home.

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theanimal
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Re: Guns in America

Post by theanimal » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:11 pm

Many inner city schools in Chicago in high crime areas have metal detectors . It appears from my own largely ignorant vantage point that most, if not all, of the shootings have occurred in suburban middle-upper class environments.

I really don't think much is going to be done about the gun laws. It seems a tragedy happens, each side talks laat each other and forgets about it when a new hot topic comes up in 3 weeks.

Adding metal detectors at schools appears to be a simple solution at first glance. Although that would require people to monitor them. And I'm not sure how it would work on college campuses. Maybe not such a great idea after all...

Augustus
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Re: Guns in America

Post by Augustus » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:45 pm

IlliniDave wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:23 pm
I don't see a more sensible interim measure while people sit around and debate why these guys do what they do and how to stop them before they actually do anything.
I've actually settled on private school as a solution, even though the cost makes me cringe, there are some interesting statistics on violence in public vs private school.

Speaking of prison, one thing public schools and prisons have in common is they gather up all the idiots in a geographic area and put them together. I think that is honestly the primary cause of the school shootings and why they are so rare in private schools. The violent idiots aren't in private schools at anywhere near the same ratio.

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Guns in America

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:51 pm

I can't remember the book (Freakanomics, maybe?), but I remember reading about a Pacific island (?) where there was a long term trend where teenagers would strangle themselves with a rope attached to a doorknob. Evidently, some charismatic kids did it first, it "caught on." and it took decades to die out.

I wonder if mass, indiscriminate, school shootings are our doorknob strangling.

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daylen
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Re: Guns in America

Post by daylen » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:52 pm

@Kriegsspiel For what it's worth, charisma is probably not a characteristic found in these troubled kids.

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BRUTE
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Re: Guns in America

Post by BRUTE » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:11 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:39 pm
@brute
If you have one tomahawk missile, then the government owns thousands of them, plus some MOABs, bunker busters, long range armed drones and an army of young RiggerJacks behind them. All paid for with your tax dollars. You're back where we started.
right. so citizens should have rights to even more guns.

brute is just confused as to why "not enough firepower no matter what" is an argument against any firepower.

ducknalddon
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Re: Guns in America

Post by ducknalddon » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:26 am

Sclass wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:33 pm
Iraq.
I should have qualified my question with "and produced a good outcome". :D

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Guns in America

Post by ThisDinosaur » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:55 am

BRUTE wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:11 pm
right. so citizens should have rights to even more guns.

brute is just confused as to why "not enough firepower no matter what" is an argument against any firepower.
If the justification for gun ownership is "in case the Government comes for me", I'm saying that gun ownership will not protect you if/when that happens. So that specific justification is invalid.
Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:13 am
Firearms empower the little guy. In a world without them, we go back to size, training, and numbers as the determining factors of behavior.
I see the purpose of [Democratic] government as to empower the little guy. The absence of government would be anarchy. Anarchy on its face is equal to absolute freedom. But in reality, anarchy just makes you subservient to whoever has greater "size, training, and numbers." Being governed democratically is choosing the most benign gang of warlords you can.

We are giving up tremendous autonomy to a mob of voters, their elected representatives, and the military and police force that those representatives employ. Anarchy vs. government are two sides of the same coin, or maybe different ends of a spectrum. In both cases, individuals are below an authority. The authority is the better-armed, higher numbered gang than the one you're in. That being said, the primary purpose of any government is to sustain a military and a police force. The military protects us from outsiders while the police force protects us from each other. And the whole rest of the government apparatus is to determine how those two forces should act.

A monopoly on force is the logical outcome of this understanding.

Now, I think there are a lot of problems with that. Because a military, police force, and government is just a bunch of individuals. And individuals are prone to self-serving abuse of power as well as tend to form gangs. So you inevitably end up with corrupt individuals having the monopoly on force. This would justify an armed revolution.

For an armed revolution to be successful, you would need the armed populace to be at least evenly matched in firepower to the government, AND for them all to agree that the time for the revolution has come.

If you have varying sized groups of armed individuals fighting over how to govern each other, you are back to anarchy again.

IlliniDave
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Re: Guns in America

Post by IlliniDave » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:04 am

Sclass wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:22 pm
We have a lot of pistol violence in the US. I don’t think Canada has a lot of handguns. Although we see these massacres going down with AR15 rifles and high capacity mags taped together I believe the majority of gun violence in the US is handgun.

I think Obama actually said this while showing a statistic that most killings in Chicago were five shot .38 revolvers. How’s that for banning semi auto? These guys are knocking each other off with simple wheel guns.
This often gets overlooked but when you remove self-inflicted wounds (typically pistols and I think by themselves make up a majority of "gun violence" incidents in the US) and concentrations of gang-related conflict (e.g., certain areas of Chicago) where, as you note, handguns dominate, from the US "statistics", we look a lot different.

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