Forum Posting Ethics

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jacob
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by jacob »

@jp, campitor -

I'm borrowing this from the bond thread as it might serve as a useful example/exercise/illustration ...
jacob wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:42 am
PPS: Think of this as a poker game (note: I don't care much for poker, so I'm probably missing some poker-specifics). When you first start to play, you learn the rules and the various hands (cf. duration, terms, various yields i.e. YTM, and pricing). Next level, the probabilities of the hands. Next, the change of the probabilities based on cards seen and bids. Next, you start playing the players (the tells). Next, playing the players based on what you know about them (risk tolerance, bank roll, ...). Most of the time, players will be unaware of higher levels. There will be a kind of fish/shark relationship in the game.
... of this and this.

Another way of looking at it is (cf. Dreyfus)
1: Low #information, where information = factoids, urls, ...
2: High #information
3: Low #knowledge, where knowledge = organizational structure of information
4: High #knowledge
5: Low #wisdom, where wisdom = organizational structure of knowledge
6: High #wisdom(*)

We can group these into three according to focus: Information/facts (I), knowledge (II), wisdom (III).

(*) Not in the Dreyfus model .. but the concept exists in the [conscious/unconscious] x [competent/incompetent] model.

Knowledge (3,4) is what's required for knowing whether a piece of information, a fact, is relevant or irrelevant. Knowledge is also required for differentiating between information and misinformation. Part of why misinformation campaigns work so well is that the average person holds almost no knowledge.

With experience, it's possible to tell whether a question is of the I, II, or III variety. There's meta-information being revealed by how the question is being asked.

The wider the gap between the level of the question and the level of the one answering it, the more energy is required to bridge the gap. This is because of the size of the explanatory structure that needs to be considered by the person answering the question. So there's a cost associated with the question that's being paid by the person answering it.

A question that's request for wisdom(5) but phrased in a way that suggests the possession of high information without basic knowledge(2) (seeking explanations for esoteric exceptions is a dead giveaway) is a high-cost question (cost 5-2=3). This is why the professor turns/turned their back. It's just too much (especially if it has happened a dozen times before). If it was a management situation instead of an intellectual one, it would be blown off with a "this decision is way above your pay-grade". For questions the meta-answer is more that "there's a million things you need to know before you can understand the answer to the question you're asking".

OTOH, if the question [about wisdom] was asked in a way that indicates high knowledge/structure or even low knowledge/structure, it's more likely to get a good answer.

Kinda goes back to the idea that
  • the most rewarding person to ask is whoever is one level further ahead
  • the most rewarding person to answer is whoever is one level behind
  • the most rewarding person to debate is whoever is at the same level
These behaviors tend to be stimulating/build energy. With more energy/enthusiasm, one can engage in less effective behaviors. Everybody has their threshold for how much they can span, but if the gap is too wide, the behavior is draining, and people act accordingly. I think this explains a lot of the dynamics. One can, therefore, control the dynamics of the situation by controlling the how and the who.

saving-10-years
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by saving-10-years »

@jp Like and agree with your comment - 'Come for the food, stay for the company'.

@Jacob, initially I was here for answers/expertise but (perhaps truest of FI folk on here?) I come back repeatedly for the community. Yes, if something happens in the world then here I will find trusted opinions (and informed contrary ones) to draw on, but often my reward for dropping by is laugh out loud moments (@BRUTE, @riggerjack, @Jason), DIY/garden/thrift/EDC inspiration (@halfmoon, @ffj, @cmonkey, @jp, @Ego) and the lure of questions and information that I never knew we would be interested in (@7w5 leading here but @Dragline, @seppia @sclass, @vexed87 and now @Fish contribute). @THF has a special place as the same sort of age as my DS so his questions give me insights into a young man's mind. Lots of reasons to drop by and only some mentioned above. Its not always what they posted recently either (there is gold to be mined in these here forums - and sometimes raised to the surface by newcomers and held aloft for re-examination). Sorry to be so gush-y. I have been involved in various online forums since 1980s and this one really is special (but multi-level and multi-layer).

For those just now discovering all this they won't know what they like here yet and what you suggest in terms of levels may be precisely what they need/use. Going back to the comment by @jp - they are here for the food and they need to identify what food around here they can stomach and which they will enjoy.

Campitor
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by Campitor »

@ Jacob

Your explanations and poker analogy make 100% sense and I certainly see why an expert wouldn't want to waste the mental and/or emotional energy trying to span a chasm of information/knowledge/wisdom. Your explanation has certainly given me a lot to ponder. The models you provided I will certainly absorb and be mindful of when interacting with others.

But in regards to the professor incident, had he said something along the lines of "You wouldn't understand my explanation unless you were familiar with X,Y, and Z", I would have at least been given some bread crumbs to follow in order to span my gap of information to knowledge; I would have stopped the asbestos conversation and done some follow up research. But that isn't what the professor did. He actually accused me of hampering the education of the general public. His actual words, if I recall correctly, were "It's people like you that make it difficult to educate the public on the dangers of asbestos." I don't see how my question could have been construed in a negative light. And if you think of it, how could he reconcile his desire to educate the public when he couldn't even take the time to educate someone who was actually very interested in what he had to say?

@ thread participants

While I don't believe it's every expert's duty to educate unless he/she wants to, I can't reconcile the idiocy of decrying the ignorance of the general public when that very person is unwilling to educate the public when a sincere opportunity presents itself. In my opinion, the only way to get from information-to-knowledge and from knowledge-to-wisdom is via questions. Information-to-knowledge requires asking someone else questions. Knowledge-to-wisdom requires asking ourselves questions and being asked questions by others. Think about it...
Last edited by Campitor on Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FBeyer
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by FBeyer »

saving-10-years wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:19 pm
... Sorry to be so gush-y. I have been involved in various online forums since 1980s and this one really is special..
It says a lot about our state of disconnect that we feel the need to apologize when we heap unsolicited praise on someone else.

The world sorely needs more heartfelt compliments.

jacob
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by jacob »

@all - FYI, my comments only relate to information/knowledge/wisdom and how the dynamics of exchanges relates to the distribution of those qualities when it comes to any group, including this forum. As for me getting involved in this thread in the first place, it is mainly over the concern over the handful of "eternally repetitive debates of stupid" we've had on the forums over the years. Whether it was conscious or unconscious incompetence or misinformation, I think new beginners could have done a better job educating themselves by picking up a quick book; and that proficient/competents could have done a better job helping with the misinformation weed-whacking efforts than leaning back and just watching for edutainment after they learned their bit. Such displays end rather quickly when people step in instead of just forming a circle around the two fighters to watch them duke it out. OTOH, I also realize that nobody is obligated to do anything ... so my bigger point is that overall "no action" also has a consequence. IOW, the ethical behavior [choices when it comes to such things] of the community determines the form and function of the community itself.

I haven't been commenting on community building/maintenance/social relations.

However, keep in mind that while old forumites likely hang around because of the community, new forumites likely come in because of the level of the content. Therefore it seems there should be some interest in maintaining a certain level (form and function) of the content.

jacob
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by jacob »

@campitor - As for the reaction of the professor, I totally get him. Maybe his was not the most suave reaction, but ... I get it.

However, and this is key here, for almost anything that has become "politically" contentious, or more accurately a matter of belief, the expert eventually realizes that the majority of people are not asking sincerely.

This is generally not an issue for non-contentious issues. An expert on quantum chromodynamics will not brush you off for asking what a quark it ... but insofar you wanna know "if vaccines are really necessary?", an expert on public health probably will(*), since vaccination has now become controversial among some laymen.

So you probably walked into someone who has been burned many times by people who've either tried to trap him with various rhetorical tricks; or had almost no knowledge despite claiming themselves to be well-informed (since they watched that movie about it ... ); or heard a talking-point somewhere; or who like most was incapable of instantly incorporating new information logically. (The Socratic method doesn't really work in practice.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory seems relevant here. The professor will try to gauge whether you're providing an honest signal (sincere inquiry) or whether you're trying to cheat (insincere confirmation-desire, uninformed disagreement, or just laziness). One way (as per the wiki link) is to look for costly signals. A costly signal in this regard is some insight/phrasing/comment that's not available by googling or just having watched some PBS documentary.

(*) However, you probably would get an answer, even a highly detailed one, if you asked exactly the same question but within the context of the SIR-model, because that model requires some effort to learn. It's not something one just picks up from a blog post. And you demonstrating knowing (knowledge, so at least 3 or 4) shows that you're very likely to understand the answer.

It's possible that the professor has already done a lot to educate the public. Maybe he wrote a textbook only to observe that people asking him technical questions didn't bother to read it. Ditto papers or webpages. Or maybe people are asking him questions all the time without bothering to learn enough first to demonstrate that they are competent enough to understand the answer. Or maybe he just had a bad day. Or maybe he's just a jerk.

Imagine fighting one person after the other day after day while being circled by spectators who do little or nothing but watch. Then a new guy comes into the circle and faces you: "Hey!, I want to ..." ... and you just punch him and walk out. "But I wasn't looking for a fight?!" ... but how would you know? Walk a mile in someone's shoes ...

Campitor
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by Campitor »

Imagine fighting one person after the other day after day while being circled by spectators who do little or nothing but watch. Then a new guy comes into the circle and faces you: "Hey!, I want to ..." ... and you just punch him and walk out. "But I wasn't looking for a fight?!" ... but how would you know? Walk a mile in someone's shoes ...
Point taken.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Here is a very good example of how to teach across a vast gap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX6RbDCCGDE

I think if you are interested in solving the puzzle of how different people learn, it can be very rewarding to be working with a developmentally delayed 5 year old when he suddenly rolls out a wad of play-dough, picks up 3 different alphabet cookie-cutters, and then puts together the word CAT. IOW, when the gap becomes tremendous the task changes qualitatively.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I encountered Mystery Doug when I was helping teach a first grade class that learned about how understanding the movement of the sun through the sky during the course of the day can help you if you are lost in the woods. These are very lucky children who attend one of the best elementary schools anywhere, so there is a woodland park right next to the school where they can explore. The science mystery the first graders had to solve was based on a story about a little boy whose father told him that if he followed morning sun as he walked through the woods he would be able to find his friend's house on the other side of the woods. The little boy successfully followed the sun to his friend's house, and then they played all day and had dinner before the little boy decided it was time to walk back home through the woods. The first graders then had to pair up, discuss and decide which picture best represented the path in relationship to the sun the little boy should take in order to find his way home.

It was interesting for me to observe the manner in which their excellent teacher guided the children through this Mystery Doug exercise, and I was curious about how many children, if any, would be able to explain their answer. One little girl, moving her arms around constantly to represent the sun, did a very good job. Then, since this was a group likely to contain the precocious, I wondered if some other child might speak up and say something like "But, but, but...the Sun doesn't move around the Earth. The Earth moves around the Sun.", and how the teacher would handle such a comment, given that otherwise the range of comprehension seemed to be 5 children who understood why their answer was correct, 5 kids who kind of understood why their answer was incorrect, 5 kids who did not understand why their answer was incorrect, and 5 kids who were sleeping, fighting with bean bags, or picking nose during the lesson. For better or worse, no child with precocious question outside of range raised hand.

The same group of first graders played tunnel tag during gym. I was the referee. The rules of tunnel tag are if you are tagged you must freeze and make a tunnel with your legs. If another runner crawls through your leg tunnel, then you may start running around again. The first round we tried playing with only 3 taggers and 21 kids running around, and it seemed like the game would never end. The second round we played with 4 taggers and the runners were all locked up within a few minutes. The third round we kept 4 taggers, but the little boy who seemed to be the most gifted athlete in the group became a runner/crawler rather than a tagger, so the game lasted a bit longer. So, I was thinking about the concept of the "embodied mind", the ease with which the children were able to get a feel for how the game was likely to go, the use of the term "frozen" in the game, and how this might be incorporated into an exercise that could help teach how a small change (add 1 more tagger) can have rather large consequences, because the game ends very quickly rather than seemingly going on forever. Many years ago, when I was dithering between getting a degree in math education vs. actuarial science, I took a course entitled "The Use of Drama in the Classroom" that was on the topic of how to create such exercises.

OTOH, I will concede that it has been my experience that grouchy old men are one of the most difficult types to teach. Generally, you first have to disarm them with a megaton load of respectful behavior. Then you have to figure out how to motivate somebody who already has most everything he needs. Then you have to be very, very patient and very, very clever. It's a lot of work. Maybe somewhere on the scale between attempting to teach a severely emotionally impaired 9 year old who bites, and attempting to teach a 60 year old female who is highly motivated to finally get her high school diploma, but has never before encountered the concept of negative numbers.

Jason

Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by Jason »

Fish wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:12 pm

Now, on these forums there is a type of abusive posting behavior where certain individuals will ask lots of questions or repeatedly bump their own topics without contributing meaningfully to the community. (I’m talking about regulars, not newbies.) When assistance is given, they will require information to be spoon-fed to them, that is, instead of taking the time to search for answers based on the clues provided, the abusive poster asks the community to do the legwork for them. It’s parasitic.
I don't think this is an "ethical" problem. I think it's a cultural problem, which is better, because individuals can be pressured to conform to the pedagogical philosophy of the board, as I believe what you refer to as abusive is what you perceive as a disrespectfulness to the arduous intellectual and practical tasks demanded of ERE. I know this, because I'm part of the problem. Maybe not in the exact way you speak, but in other ways. And you have a legitimate gripe.

This board reminds me of the time I had to fulfill a science requirement in college. I was an English Major at a top science school. That one day a week I walked into the physics building I knew I was in the wrong place. That's how I sometimes feel here. It's like walking into NASA and sitting in a room of geniuses laboring over their space ships designs and the only contribution you have is "Think about it, a stripper pole in a place where there is no gravity!!!"

I know if I lived a million years I would not be able to think or develop the analytical skills like JLF and the other hard core participants. And that's an admixture of three things: I don't, I can't and I don't want to. But I do have an interest in the topic.

I think you are right in gathering your peer group and just saying "Listen, don't respond to Frugal until he is demonstrating that he is reading the book. Felipe is a good guy and Jason is giving it a shot but once they start talking about the value of paid hand jobs others jump in and then it becomes a mess so just tell them to cut the shit."

What you have, on a very small scale, is a rigorous academic program where there are no requirements to enter. So every now and then you have a contingent of yuks come in and disrupt the class. Eventually they will get tired and leave. If they are militant in just wanting to disrupt, you ban them and get back to designing your space ships.

CS
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by CS »

@jason

In the interest of being direct (channeling INTJ), and since it is the topic of this board, I must tell you that your posts are the only ones in this forum that I have found offensive to the point of having a reaction every time I see your name. "Chicks" this and "chicks" that, generally in terms of their sexual usefulness to you or others. The word for this is misogyny. (Being partnered doesn't mean this isn't a thing. Calling it 'humor' does not make it funny.)

Thankfully, most of the worst posts were removed by Jacob.

I tried hard to not say anything, as a "well trained" woman in this society, but after seeing you freely commenting on this post, I have to make this point. It is not okay, at least to me. You want a place this table, all the while making it hostile to others. How is that playing well?

saving-10-years
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by saving-10-years »

@CS Female speaking here and as an INTJ I speak directly also. I don't think @Jason needs me to defend him but can I say that I don't think he is a misogynist*. I can see why you are offended. He does after all set out to offend. But he appears to like to push everyone/anyone (seems to be his nature). I agree with his comment above that he is 'giving it a shot' (he recently got the JLF book from the library and is doing a chapter by chapter review which I find thoughtful). I still don't get his humour (or find much of it humorous) - I think he's a much nicer guy without the profanity and sex-talk and am unconvinced that he has any interactions with the sex trade as outlined. He seems more interesting than all that junk suggests. Or at least I am starting to think so. Could be wrong.

*I am getting on in years now, so have had the opportunity to be disappointed many times. I am more inclined to judge misogyny in terms of how someone behaves rather than what they say/write. I have come across too many disastrously misogynistic men who have a deep seated contempt for women and no qualms about manipulating them. These guys have wrecked lives, with all the PC wording down pat.

FBeyer
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by FBeyer »

To anyone who is annoyed with the behavior of a specific person:
1) use the built-in personal message system and try to convey your grievances in a civilized manner.
2) use the ignore/foe option in case 1) doesn’t help.

jacob
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by jacob »

I notice there's some fire here. Please carry any gasoline in closed containers.

Riggerjack
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by Riggerjack »

My comments aren't aimed at you in particular and I’m not trying to change rules or guidelines that are welcome and accepted by most forum members.
Wait. What? I thought we were talking about Fish's preferences (and to a lesser extent, Jacob's)

This comes up every once in a while, Jacob being nostalgic for a lost internet I never knew...

This is the only place I am "social" online. Not because I am particularly ERE, but because this is the only place people put the effort forth to sincerely disagree. By that I mean we are willing to put our thoughts into words, and challenge preconceived notions.

I score very solidly INTJ, and even I find some of Fish's posts... Information dense, it think is the right term. As though what he is writing has been kicked around in his head for a while, written down, edited, re-edited, then edited for length, by eliminating all but the most necessary words.

But I LOVE that! Where else can you find such depth of thought on display in an interactive place?

By contrast, you are so foreign to me I sometimes need to reread your posts, to make sure I hadn't misread you. Which is again awesome, and also rare and valuable.

Myself, I kick ideas around for too long, unless I have someone to bounce them off of. So, in real life, I say some very outrageous things. Not because I believe them, but because I have been kicking it around, and am hoping someone can poke a hole in it. Popping one of these thought bubbles is the best, and usually requires an looking at the problem from an angle I would never find on my own. As I tried to explain to my best friend's fiance, I need to be right, I don't need you to believe that I am right. Showing me where I am not right is the sincerest form of flattery.

Over the years, you have forced me to re-examine a few things, thank you.

@campitor
Watching my brother in law trying to get his PhD, has made it very clear how little that has to do with personal development, even when it is a psychiatry doctorate. You have to know by now that most people value consensus. It sounds to me as though you found one of those. And you weren't building consensus, so the reaction seems predictable.
In the interest of being direct (channeling INTJ), and since it is the topic of this board, I must tell you that your posts are the only ones in this forum that I have found offensive to the point of having a reaction every time I see your name. "Chicks" this and "chicks" that, generally in terms of their sexual usefulness to you or others. The word for this is misogyny. (Being partnered doesn't mean this isn't a thing. Calling it 'humor' does not make it funny.)
CS, this is going to be a long post, so bear with me.

About 20 years ago, my sister and I shared a house. Her boyfriend, "BS" for short, was an obnoxious, wannabe overwhelming guy. You know him, not too smart, very loud, enormously proud of himself when he said something vaguely witty, desperately wanting to project intimating, but really just a loser.

One day, my good friend D and I come home from a construction site, and are having a few beers. BS comes in, says something stupid, I don't remember what. D looks at me with a twinkle in his eyes, and in a drole voice feeds BS a line. BS jumps on it. D smiles, and does it again. Again, BS jumps on it. Soon, I jump in. I think that was the most fun BS ever had, he was killing it. It was shooting fish in a barrel, BS finally was the smartest guy in the room. D and I had a great time too, because we had made a game of controlling BS's side of the conversation. If you looked at a transcript of the conversation, it was clear the BS was quick and witty. If you listened to a recording, it was clear he was an idiot.

There was a meta conversation going on, at a level BS was completely unaware of. I find this as a useful reminder that I don't always know what is going on, even when I am there, participating. While I have never been on the receiving end of this bit, there have been conversations I have been a part of, where unsaid things were communicated, that had to be pointed out to me later.

I have been here a while, and I have read some mysogynist posts (the men's rights thread comes to mind), but I have never seen one go unchallenged.

Jason on the other hand, writes what he writes, and while it raises a few questions, it doesn't raise challenges. In this group, it doesn't raise challenges.

Now, you need to ask yourself, is that because we are all mysogynists, or is there meta content you are missing?

Riggerjack
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by Riggerjack »

but often my reward for dropping by is laugh out loud moments (@BRUTE, @riggerjack, @Jason),
Wait. When did I say something funny?

(Dropping to knees for best Joe Pesci imitation)" You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fucked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to fuckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?"

It is very nice to hear that the things I write that make me smile, also make others smile. I sometimes feel like my sense of humor is mine alone.

Jason

Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by Jason »

saving-10-years wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:54 am
am unconvinced that he has any interactions with the sex trade as outlined.
I’m really trying to take the high road here. I can handle the aspersions and the disparagment of my relative value. But this particular comment that calls into question my integrity is extremely upsetting to me.

slowtraveler
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by slowtraveler »

Though I can see how one would perceive Jason as offensive, I do not doubt his integrity and consistency. He demonstrates a continued effort to become more financially efficient, he clearly adores his wife to no end, appreciates more feminine values than purely the physical, and I enjoy reading his every post. He is one of my favorites on here and I hope Jason keeps posting as a regular. I would feel sad to lose his presence on here.

All that said, this is the only forum of which I am active over a time span lasting more than years. This forum is a sacred place in that it maintains a self regulating level of mature respect for each other's individual freedom to think without succumbing to mindlessness or censorship. I constantly learn from wise souls who have done things I want to or who display character traits I admire- like Brute, Jacob, Tyler, Viktor, 7wb, etc. I am constantly impressed by how gently Jacob steers the forums in creating such a safe haven amidst a sea of either censorship or blatant immaturity.

I trust we can all continue to contribute to this space in a way that deepens what drew us all here.

distracted_at_work
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by distracted_at_work »

Jason wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:06 am
This board reminds me of the time I had to fulfill a science requirement in college. I was an English Major at a top science school. That one day a week I walked into the physics building I knew I was in the wrong place. That's how I sometimes feel here. It's like walking into NASA and sitting in a room of geniuses laboring over their space ships designs and the only contribution you have is "Think about it, a stripper pole in a place where there is no gravity!!!"

I know if I lived a million years I would not be able to think or develop the analytical skills like JLF and the other hard core participants. And that's an admixture of three things: I don't, I can't and I don't want to. But I do have an interest in the topic.
Putting whether or not you are offensive aside for a second, I wanted to highlight this quote because it's exactly how I feel on this board. I want to know if something works, the gist of why it works, and then let me go apply it as efficiently as possible and get on to the next thing. I'll very rarely be able to engage in a highly analytical debate or conversation without being stripper pole guy.

In general, this thread is way too meta. Let forumites live, post what you want (within reason i.e. follow the rules). Let the quality and quantity of replies be the judge of the thread and learn from there. This is the best forum I've encountered by a mile. The post on proper sock-wearing technique this week was a treasure.

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jennypenny
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Re: Forum Posting Ethics

Post by jennypenny »

I can't believe that from this moment forward, whenever I feel out of my depth in a conversation here I'm going to think of myself as 'stripper pole guy'. :lol:

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