SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Anything to do with the traditional world of get a degree, get a job as well as its alternatives
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Seppia
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by Seppia »

The only important thing in my opinion is to understand why this is happening.
Even if you think the only thing you're doing wrong is "not being perfect", I would assume there's a high chance there's something else.
For example, in consulting firms (BCG, McKinsey), 830-630 is considered part time.
One may accept this or not (I didn't when I had the chance), but those are the rules you must play by if you're in.

Fish
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by Fish »

TopHatFox wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:47 pm
I don't produce flawless work the first time around. I also asked for a handful of extensions. [...] And I asked a superior a few basic questions about bonds which were covered in a class session.
Would you self-assess as having enough basic knowledge and training to do your job to your employer’s satisfaction? I would guess there’s a huge gap between your formal education (geology) and finance, and the above description seems consistent with someone working out of his element. Also it seems unusual to require an extension during the honeymoon phase of a job.

Before we get too rational also consider that they could have been looking for someone with interpersonal skills and normal personality disorder. How would you rate your ability to work effectively with your colleagues and your superiors?

The Old Man
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by The Old Man »

Welcome to the real world. Take this as a learning experience. You are not the first person to be fired, nor will you be the last. Learn from it.
Seppia wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:58 am
The only important thing in my opinion is to understand why this is happening.
+1 Above all, this must you understand.
TopHatFox wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:47 pm
In short, I'm not perfect….
You are working in the wealth management industry. They hire pretty much only from elite prestige universities. There is a reason for that.
Personally, I feel that your office politics skills are subpar. You work from 0830-1830 AND have requested some extensions AND work in an industry which places a lot of emphasis on image. Your perceived work ethic may also be in question plus technical skills (bond basics, etc.) These things seem petty and they are except you are in the wealth management industry competing against others from elite prestige universities.
Take this as a lesson and you may want to reconsider your choice of industry.

SustainableHappiness
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by SustainableHappiness »

I agree with what's been said as well, any time I've heard the words improvement plan, it is a death knell for the employee involved.

On a positive note, it sounds like you didn't like the job anyways.

Good luck.

PA Hiker
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by PA Hiker »

No need to take your situation personally. Modern firms are notoriously arbitrary and capricious. In my 16+ years at MegaCorp I probably went through 6 rounds of lay-offs, and likely came very close to being let go at least twice in 2004 and 2009. While working there, I saw a lot of bright, talented people forced out just because they were in the wrong department or had the wrong job title. It was dumb luck that I lasted as long as I did.

One thing to consider is whether or not you will qualify for unemployment. If you take the severance are you voluntarily quitting? If so then, no unemployment. Your expenses are so low that 6 months of unemployment (at $500/week or so) will buy you another year of freedom. And plenty of time to find something new.

Good Luck!

plantingourpennies
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by plantingourpennies »

Three things:

1. Don't get down on yourself about this. You've got more going on than 95% of the people that work at fortune 500 companies, and are wealthy enough to laugh it off.

2. Figure out what the areas for improvement are. There is a small chance that they are legitimate concerns...to me the situation reads more like a cultural mis-match between you and your employer. Offices are tribal and the tribe fears what it doesn't understand.

3. Take the severance. Between 2008 and 2010 I was fired from a auto repair shop and quit two retail jobs. I didn't include any of that on the resume that got me my current job.

I've been on the other side of the table, and have had to tell a dozen or so new college grads that it isn't working out. The improvement/coaching period at my company is just so HR can show that you received coaching so you can't sue later. The 5 weeks of severance is a way for everybody get out of the situation with their pride and honor intact. If I understand the situation correctly I would hold my head high, gratefully accept the coaching, and try not to giggle too much when they walk me to the door.

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C40
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by C40 »

BRUTE wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:38 pm
C40 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:20 pm
unresponsively chatty
what is that
Ha, whoops. I meant unresponsiBly -- err - actually, irresponsibly. ugh

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Ego
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by Ego »

Could be the best thing that ever happened to you.

This is from another thread from a long time ago.
TopHatFox wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:18 pm
If I can combine that with some work I like for those years (working on a research sailboat by leveraging my two sail boat study away adventures, then I'll be externally fulfilled for those years and externally wealthy).
If there is anyone on this board who could achieve their post-ERE life without actually spending years grinding away at some miserable job, it is you.

Here's a job that might require less sailing into the wind to get where you want to go. I'm sure there are many others like it.

https://www.adventureindustrypro.com/jo ... s-manager/

TopHatFox
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by TopHatFox »

The results are in. Below is the feedback they gave me.

Pros of me:

1. Has a can-do, optimistic attitude
2. Fixes mistakes soon after they're mentioned
3. Arrives and leaves on time or earlier/later
4. Works throughout time at work, no social media or other distractions
5. Goes out to social outings with the firm; is liked by people in the office
6. Asks for new projects and extra work
7. Dresses professionally and comes prepared for work

Things I was told to work on:

1. Excel training was had and was still asking about certain formulas and how they work, made a few calculation and misspelling errors
2. Was given a training project and did not follow an instruction for that project the first time around
3. Said "he's not here right now, can I take a message?" instead of "He stepped away from his desk. Would you like me to take a message for you?"
4. Used earphones while working and didn't pick up the phone enough
5. Did not adapt previous feedback to new problems the first time around, instead asked how to solve the new problems directly
6. Did not internalize feedback right away, and asked for a few extensions while working on other projects
7. Asked for a refresher on bond pricing after training was had on the subject

------------------------

Commentary:

In my defense, I used earphones to focus on getting projects done in an open floor plan. I also think being expected to adapt previous feedback to new problems the first time around is a tall order. Not being able to ask for refreshers is too. I asked for a few extensions because I needed to focus on my first client meeting coming up. I agree with what another poster said - the private wealth management culture is cutthroat. They need the best of the best at their best at all times for long hours. That's just not where I fit in. I tried my best to meet their standards, but nothing I did was enough, even while trying to be as "can-do" as possible. It was particularly difficult to be as detail oriented as I was being asked to be after working for so many hours day after day, week after week.

I think part of the mismatch here was that I am strong Intuitive Feeler. In my opinion, the job role was best suited for a Sensing Thinker. I originally thought something like financial planning would best benefit from someone who can think about big ideas and be good with people. Instead, the job was more about making Excel models and client meeting preparation materials on time and with 100% accuracy.

Now looking back, I felt "fragged" after a week of work. My partner noticed and mentioned this a few times. I would feel immediately better after a weekend of hiking and spending time with friends or her. This "fragged" feeling only got worse as the weeks went by. After not working today, that feeling is dissipating and I feel like I can go in and work there again. This is a trap, as that feeling and the problems would only return. Perhaps this also has something to do with the amount of time worked. Maybe working 40 hours instead of 50-60 would be better. Maybe working 20-30 would be even better.

I think the ultimate lesson to take on all of this is that I should find work that I like and am suited for, with people that I like, in a place that I like, within a reasonable number of hours. I also do agree with them that being even better at internalizing feedback immediately and permanently would be good. Same with improving detail-oriented work. Better yet, focus on work best suited for an INFJ, rather than trying to get better at work suited for an ISTJ.

What do you all think?

Scott 2
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by Scott 2 »

Find a place with a 37.5 or 40 hour week, the culture will be completely different. You don't need the high pay that comes with that type of anal retentive behavior.

Do not miss dates. Predictably is the single most important aspect of being an employee.

Under promise what you'll do, so you have the time to figure problems out on your own and never miss your agreed upon deadline. It's irritating to have junior employees bother you with basic stuff they could figure out doing some research online, talking to their peers, or double checking their work.

BRUTE
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by BRUTE »

TopHatFox wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:07 pm
I should find work that I like and am suited for, with people that I like, in a place that I like, within a reasonable number of hours.
this sounds good. it's hard to change the self. it's easier to go to a place where the current self is already a good fit.

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GandK
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by GandK »

TopHatFox wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:07 pm
Better yet, focus on work best suited for an INFJ, rather than trying to get better at work suited for an ISTJ.
Best conclusion for lifelong pursuits, although you may find, as I did, that the work you most enjoy as an INFJ is not particularly profitable:
Where INFJs fall flat is in work focusing on impersonal concerns, mundanity, and high-profile conflict. (More...)
This sentence is painfully true, and eliminates most white collar work from theoretical consideration as it perfectly encapsulates corporate America. But I've found it possible to happily pursue almost any task as an INFJ if my focus is on the people I'm helping by accomplishing it, rather than on the specifics of the task.

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Seppia
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by Seppia »

Reading the feedback and your comments it really seems that it just wasn't a good fit.
What happened is good I think, you would just have been miserable there.

Please allow me a suggestion: I don't want to sound arrogant or similar, but I will probably. Sorry about that in advance, believe me I'm just trying to help.

Many young people choose their first line of work base on the money they can make, some perception about the status the job will bring, some peer pressure (family) or idealistically something "they love".
I would recommend a more pragmatic approach: try your best to find something you're GOOD at, even if it's not the first choice that you would pick.
If you work in something you're good at you will
- enjoy it more. Human beings are basic, we tend to like stuff that we naturally excel at. Think sports: I never enjoyed soccer. Guess what: I am probably the least talented Italian on the planet for soccer.
So if you'll work in something that naturally comes easy to you, it will immediately be more fun (or more bearable: I like my job but I'd rather be hiking the Alps than in the office)
- probably be among the best performers: this will have the obvious advantages of 1) helping you do better financially faster and 2) increase your leverage in any type of future negotiations (going part time, sabbaticals etc). Employers are always more flexible and accommodating with the requests of the employees they don't want to lose

In bocca al lupo!*

* Italian for "good luck". It literally means "in the mouth of the wolf". I know this doesn't make any sense

IlliniDave
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by IlliniDave »

Well, the good news is that you received a good bit of positive feedback along with the negative, and the positive shows that you show up every day and work. In the long run that's huge for you. It seems like the crux of the issue is meeting deadlines and the tendency to ask people for help maybe more frequently than is normal.

Deadlines are always important, but I think for entry-level people it is easier to stay below the radar in that respect in a larger corporation with more of a teamwork culture. In my little microcosm, which exists inside of megaCorp America, asking questions is viewed as a plus, but once the information is provided you have to run with it, and any issues that might impact the schedule need to be socialized ASAP rather than waiting until the day before the deadline to announce more time is required. Not saying that's what you did, but in the tiny corner of the corporate universe I am familiar with, little is worse than sitting on bad news until the last second.

I personally don't buy into Briggs Meyers enough that I would rely on it to select the optimal job for me. I never spent any time looking for an optimal job. I got by through the luck of getting onboard with a large company which offered many opportunities beyond what I was hired for, and being naturally flexible. I was raised old school so I viewed it as my responsibility to be what my employer wanted if I wanted them to give me money, rather than expecting my employer to accommodate my personality and give me a paycheck to boot. I know people who stay unemployed and/or under-employed most of the time because they hold out for some sort of perfect job that will reward them extraordinarily well for just being themselves. Nothing wrong with that unless you are trying to sprint to ER.

I didn't see if you said whether you took the severance or not, but like they say, 90% is bothering to show up. The other 10% will come in time.

BRUTE
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by BRUTE »

IlliniDave wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:27 am
I personally don't buy into Briggs Meyers enough that I would rely on it to select the optimal job for me.
brute is also a MB denier, but it's very possible just to get a "feel" for a job, or a vibe of the office, when interviewing. for example, how do humans talk to each other? are they very relaxed, stressed out, uncaring, friendly, uptight, what are they wearing? if the office immediately seems as a place THF could imagine himself hanging out and being successful and happy, that's at least not a red flag.

for example, brute has interviewed with companies that seemed so stressed out and uptight over trivial (to the interviewing brute) things, and they talked about other employees and ex-employees so ruthlessly and disrespectfully, that brute has declined job offers. similarly, brute has declined offers where the company presented itself as very greedy and disrespectful towards brute (not greedy in the money sense, but trying to nickel and dime brute, pressure him towards making a decision, other high pressure sales tactics).

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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by FBeyer »

Reading the feedback it seems to me like your pros are really great pros, and the cons are ridiculously minor, to the point of needlessly anal retentive.

My list would look more like:

Cons of me:

1. Has a fuck off-Im-busy-enough-as-it-is, attitude
2. Rarely fixes mistakes after they're mentioned
3. Arrives and leaves like he's perpetually on LSD
4. Never, has-he-ever responded to direct verbal communication in the office
5. When asked to join a meeting, happily tells people to fuck off with reference to point 1 above
6. Openly asks people to finish their shit so he's not the one stuck with documenting their shitty-as-fuck software
7. Where are your GOD DAMNED SHOES? AND SLEEVELESS SHIRTS ARE NOT ACCEPTED ATTIRE. YOU SIMIAN!

Pros of me:

1. Can always relay down to the minute when he'll stop telling his superiors to fuck off due to work overload
2. Sometimes (grudgingly) fixes mistakes. Sometimes also fixes other people's mistakes... Sometimes.
3. Arrives at work most days
4. Wears headphones with concentration music that completely 'zones him out' from office chit chat
5. Is funny (as long as he's not working)
6. Always comes up with more ideas than he can research for himself in a lifetime.
7. Never complains about rain

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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by jacob »

What are pros in one line of business/project/situation/profession/team can be and often are cons in another and vice versa.

Employers everywhere are looking for employees that 1) get the work done; and 2) are easy to work with.

Recommendation is to match the pros/cons (=requirements) of the business/.../... to your personal pros/cons thus resulting in the minimum amount of friction. If that's not possible, then match the pros and mitigate the cons.

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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by BeyondtheWrap »

TopHatFox wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:07 pm
Things I was told to work on:

1. Excel training was had and was still asking about certain formulas and how they work

5. Did not adapt previous feedback to new problems the first time around, instead asked how to solve the new problems directly
Considering your posting behavior in general on this forum, the above does not surprise me in the least.
FBeyer wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:58 pm
the cons are ridiculously minor, to the point of needlessly anal retentive.
Agreed. They should be more understanding, considering that TopHatFox is still new and this is his first job of this kind.

Since TopHatFox is about at the 3-month mark, that makes me think this is one of those companies that simply hires new employees and fires them after three months in order to avoid paying the benefits associated with permanent employment.

I agree with everyone else saying, find a company that is better suited to your personality.

TopHatFox
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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by TopHatFox »

@Augustus, the problem wasn't with not listening. I understood they needed error-free work and my phone on me at all times. The problem was with actually being able to execute that day after day for 10 hours a day. There's a reason why their staff is tiny, and all early twenty-somethings from top-tier schools. From overheard conversations, they have significant difficulty finding people that can fit the bill.

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Re: SOS: 3 hours to decide whether to quit career or "improve"? / :

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Based on reports from my DD26 and her peers, I believe that TopHatFox is accurately describing the situation and his experience. It is commonplace theseadays for graduates from top schools with not immediately useful skill sets to be run through some sort of strange wringer. My DD26's first job was in a contract position for a corporation that held a contract with another much larger corporation. The new hires were given assignments for which they were given scores and prizes, almost in direct analogy to a video game. The assignment my daughter was given required the ability to read VERY quickly and accurately for many hours, so she earned the top score for the entire pyramid of corporations for a few weeks, and was eventually offered promotion to a "permanent" managerial job on this basis. Then the subsidiary corporation which employed her was outbid by another small corporation for sub-contract with larger corporation, so at the age of 24 she was left with the responsibility of shutting down all operations of her branch, and then exiting her own no longer existent position.

I don't think that any of us who retain any notion of the era of gold-watch-presented-at-party after 40 years of service careers are quite yet grokking the "just-in-time" present day employment market.

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