Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

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7Wannabe5
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Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

This weekend I was sitting in a beach chair in a wilderness camp, observing my BF's muscular attempt to process logs in the fashion of Dick Proenneke, and reading further chapters in "Michigan: A History of the Great Lakes State." The following line jumped out at me and tugged at the cord that releases my motivational juices:
Upon hearing of Hamilton's capture, Colonel Arent De Peyster, a poet, squirrel breeder, and former commandant at Michilimackinac, assumed leadership at Detroit.
I thought how cool would it be to be a poet, a commandant AND even a squirrel breeder!

So, my question for the forum would be why is it necessary to work for even 5 years at some boring job saving up money before attempting to become a poet, a commandant, AND a squirrel breeder?

IlliniDave
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by IlliniDave »

It's not. There are other options:

Write poetry and breed squirrels and work concurrently (my preferred approach for the home stretch of accumulation).

Become a starving artist (or one very sick of eating squirrels).

jacob
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by jacob »

No.

You just gotta make sure that the sum total cash production of all the activities pays for rent, RE taxes, health insurance, water, basic heating or cooling where needed, and electric if wanted.

A US military colonel makes $140,000/year, so that definitely qualifies for the needed cash stream ALL ON ITS OWN. Being FI also qualifies ALL ON ITS OWN. Writing poetry and breeding squirrels most likely require some additional activities on top of the $15.71/year and -$200/year (in expected fines) they produce to bring you over the required limit.

Not having to worry about money definitely makes it easier to go renaissance ... but making a living as a renaissance person w/o one paystream dominating all others is a more impressive achievement.

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by Kriegsspiel »

What if it's just a matter of what you/others call yourself? IE, write some poetry and self publish it... Bam, you're a poet. Get yourself a few rabbits and let them bang each other.... Boom, you're a rabbit breeder. Buy rental properties and rent them out... Zzonk, you're a landlord.

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Ego
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by Ego »

Financial independence is a hindrance to Renaissancianism.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by classical_Liberal »

...
Last edited by classical_Liberal on Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jason

Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by Jason »

My issue is being able to pursue what I love anxiety free. I am unable to do that until I am FI. It blows Da Vinci dick but that's me.

slsdly
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by slsdly »

I would think it makes it easier. My job takes so much of my creative energy and when I was without (a job) was when I was the most engaged.

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Ego
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by Ego »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:56 pm
@ego
Is your comment referring to a human tenancy towards laziness (lack of a better term off of the top of my head)? Example being, A & B provide more than enough, so why bother starting project C & D? With this I would agree completely.
A Renaissance Man is someone who can draw on a wide range of knowledge to solve problems and accomplish things. In a broad sense, there are two types of knowledge. Knowing-that (factual knowledge) and knowing-how (implicit, experiential or skill based knowledge).

Know-how comes from doing. For the financially independent, doing is a choice. The less financially independent the person, the more they must do for themselves. FIs can pay someone else to do it (fix the car, snake a drain, build a specialized computer, stay in a hotel where everyone speaks their language....) FIs have within their means the ability to buy the exact tool for the job (or pay the expert) whereas the non-FIs must make due with what they have and hone those MacGuyver skills we all love.

A common mistake is to overvalue know-that because to acquire the corresponding know-how one must endure discomfort or inconvenience. Jacob is such a spectacle (an outlier) because he chooses the hard road when he could almost painlessly pay the toll for the easy one. Not many people who have the means to pay the toll choose the hard road.

Another big pitfall, especially for those who value facts is to believe that because one holds factual knowledge about a thing then they also know-how to (use it, do it....). But when the time comes to MacGuyver a solution they find that facts won't drive crooked nails if they've never swung a hammer.

The bottom line is that the hardest problems, those most worthy of solving, have solutions that cannot be bought. In theory FI can buy the freedom to pursue a wide range of know-that and know-how that can then lead to those unbuyable solutions, but that's not the way it is typically used. Again, that's why Jacob is such an outlier and why those who are financially independent typically fill their days with pass-times.

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Ego
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by Ego »

Tangentially related, the difference between IQ and critical thinking.

Critical thinking isn’t about mental resources so much as a way of looking at the world and a tool-kit to use at the relevant moments.

Critical thinking is learn-able and comes from applying IQ to the real world. Smart people who make really bad decisions often do so not because they are dumb (in a know-that sense) but because they have overworked the know-that and underworked the exercise that builds critical-thinking, know-how.

https://digest.bps.org.uk/2017/07/21/wh ... decisions/

Similarly, society places such a high value on wealth so it is tempting to conflate the accumulation of money with all the accomplishment needed to make a good life.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@IlliniDave: I agree the concurrent solution might work. However, I would note that one would have to be in possession of the vigor, discipline, drive, interest, motivation, initiative, time, energy, etc. to work in not just 3, but at least 4 realms, because it would not just be the case that paid employment would be holding starvation at bay while you were simultaneously writing poetry and breeding squirrels; the paid employment would also have to be producing savings towards support of future you, and some work researching passive investment would also be required.

IOW, in a variety of books written on the topic of self-employment or multi-faceted functional lifestyle, it is recommended that a J-O-B which provides just enough income, and perhaps even some additional benefits, but leaves a good deal of time/energy free for other pursuits, should be obtained. I would suggest that at Jacob level of frugality, a very part-time J-O-B or FI would be virtually interchangeable for this purpose, but there are other purposes being sought through the achievement of FI. $250,000 (or another $250,000) saved and managed vs. maybe working 10 hrs/week at a hardware store?

@jacob:

Gotcha. I would note that you don't even need personal cash production to pay for the stuff you listed if one of your activities is something like Very Part-Time Mobile-Modular Homemaker/Caretaker/Nanny/Steward/Gardener/Travel-Concubine etc. For instance, my BF will be providing me with full basic support (shelter, food, climate control, wifi, electric, shower, etc.) today, and in exchange I will clean the tub, make chicken salad, find a lost trowel, ensure delivery of a package, and take out the trash (1 hour max.) It is also not the case that I am dependent upon my BF, because there are at least 2 other individuals who would be quite happy to engage in similar barter with me. I do not know why any frugal person pays for shelter in an affluent society loaded with under-occupied housing and many people too overworked/busy/absent, elderly, young, ill or disabled to care for themselves or their homes or other property.

Of course, I still need to teach to pay my phone bill and some taxes, fees, etc., since J.Bozo and Co. caused crash of semi-passive income stream from my rare book inventory, and my perma-culture project (like squirrel-breeding!) is still running in the red due to some damn stupid-short-sighted-tool-of-bureaucracy enforcement of blight ordinance vis-a-vis my plan to live in my camper. However, although I shake fist at all the foes to my various ambitions, I do not find my part-time teaching gig to be a negative, because it is rather fulfilling to engage in activities such as helping a 4 year old with cerebral palsy to have fun playing car wash in a tub full of water.

@Kriegsspiel:

I think there has to be some sort of rule of thumb along the lines of your contribution/investment in an activity being significant enough that it might be mentioned in your obituary, eulogy, biography, or maybe something that could be made apparent if your great-great-grand-niece tried to do research on you for a genealogy project. Of course, it might not necessarily be exactly what you planned or hoped to be known for. For instance, I doubt that Arent de Peyster thought he would be best remembered for the period he spent in command of some very small fort in territory west of even the established colonies.

@Ego:

As usual, I exactly half agree with you. There are some people who should have a sign that says "READING IS NOT DOING!!!" taped over their desk or tattooed on their hand. OTOH, there are some people who should have a signs that say "THINK TWICE BEFORE YOU DO!!!" Some unfortunate people (XNTP) need both of these signs.

I am currently working in collaboration with two men-of-action on two different perma-culture type projects. One project requires turning some trees into wood chips so that humans can live there. The other project requires hauling wood chips on to previously human-blighted site, so that plants can flourish there. Some people prefer to watch how-to videos and operate dangerous large stinky machines such as trucks and chainsaws. Other people prefer to read 5 books on the topic of how best to promote beneficial fungal growth, and provide summary of acquired knowledge to other humans when they put down chainsaw to take coffee break. IOW, if reading was not a form of work with results tangible,although not immediately visible given limited access to brain structure of other humans, then I would suggest that more people would do it more often.

I did not know whether to post the below on this thread or the animal's journal where it would still have relevance due to its universal theme and particular setting.
YOUNG TAWA, (i) THE LOYAL INDIAN LOVER.

(Tum~"The yellow liaired laddie.")

In April, when icicles hung from the trees,

And Mitchigan's border continued to freeze,

A restless young Tawa a courting would go,

Borne up, on his snow-shoes, o'er tracks of deep snow.

Reclining he'd sit by a tapt maple tree.

When sugar was made by sweet Matchinoquee,

And play her such artless, such thrilling wild airs,

That Nassibb and Shoonin would dance like she-bears.

Young Tawa then sung, "Tho' young Shoonin be fair,.

And Nassibbce apes the drawled step of the bear.

If Matchie, who's handsome, and sweetly can sing,

Would blow my reed whistle, t'would make the woods ring."

But his sylvan beauty, thoug-h then in her prime,

Would shrink from ayabe, as if 'twere a crime ;

Though sighing, he told her, if she would agree

To love him, he'd love none but Matchinoquee."

Bright AVsz's," he prayed, then, to warm the young sqtia.

For he could not win her till her heart should thaw;

"O make the sap run through her veins,

with that ease You cause it to run from her tapt maple trees."

I'll hunt till I bring her an elk or a moose, (2)

In hopes that she'll bring me ayahe papoos, (3)

Who, when he gets strength, too, shall twang his stout

bow, And send his winged arrow, to wing Britain's foe.

-Arent de Peyster

IlliniDave
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by IlliniDave »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:00 am
@IlliniDave: I agree the concurrent solution might work. However, I would note that one would have to be in possession of the vigor, discipline, drive, interest, motivation, initiative, time, energy, etc. to work in not just 3, but at least 4 realms...
Sure, more than that for most of us. Note that I am not a renaissance man in any way, shape, or form. But there's a long list of things I've developed at least a basic competence or significantly improved in while working full time. Cooking, music, fishing, gardening, writing, digital photography, hiking, etc., are all things I put energy towards that I primarily consider hobbies. There are other things I don't enjoy that I've built up some skill at out of necessity: painting, electrical repair, pest control, landscaping, irrigation, arborist stuff, pet care, house cleaning, etc, etc.

Being a habitual loner, I've got all kinds of leftover energy that's not used up by chasing and satisfying women! :lol:

Campitor
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by Campitor »

You don't have to be FI to strive for or achieve the Renaissance Ideal (RI). Leonardo Da Vinci, who arguably represents the apex of what it means to be a Renaissance/enlightened person, worked for others (one of his Patron was a Medici) and then used his pay to pursue his own experiments and interests.

To achieve the Renaissance Ideal a person must have an insatiable curiosity, the unrelenting drive to pursue their interest, the ingenuity to draw valid conclusions from their observations/experiments, and the objectivity to accept criticism, seek help, and/or challenge personal and public assumptions.

FI and RI are not codependent - both can exist without the other. I would even say, imho, that if someone can't figure out how to pursue their passions while working for others, their path to achieving the RI has other hurdles beyond being FI.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@IlliniDave:

Good point. Are there really all that many people who do nothing but work full-time specialized and then watch TV on their off-hours? Most people I know who are over 40 have a fairly varied tool-kit of competencies. So, what beyond this is necessary to achieve Renaissance status? I would note that I consider my status to be something more like Jill-rolling-down-the-hill-with-too-few-eggs-in-too-many-baskets.

I also hope to have more time and energy for my varied interests, avocations and/or hobbies now that I have resolved to retire from making myself attractive, signaling availability, and satisfying men.

@Campitor:

I agree. In fact, in retrospect I commenced upon one of my grandest adventures during a period of my life when I was quite loaded down with other obligations. Also, there are many passions or projects that absolutely require the support of others in some form likely approximating employment by other. For instance, if you wish to become an astronaut.

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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:46 pm
Are there really all that many people who do nothing but work full-time specialized and then watch TV on their off-hours?
That depends on how you count.
  • If the cut-off is set at making just $50/month from a non-primary work activity, I think the far majority do "nothing".
  • If loosened to creating value for others (e.g. homemade gifts or volunteering) that could in principle by sold by putting in the sales-work, I think, it's still a minority.
  • If further loosened to having an activity that creates value for oneself in the sense that it saves money on commercial purchases (e.g. DIY), yet isn't "good enough" that other people (consumers) would actually want to hire you or pay for what you're making (e.g. by selling on craigslist et al), I think the two groups begin to be comparable.
This leaves a substantial group that is utterly dependent on the consumer-market and enough money to access it.

IlliniDave
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by IlliniDave »

7wb5, maybe there is more than one understanding of Renaissance Ideal floating around in the discussion. To me it is more of an everyday definition that is an outgrowth from the movement of the cultured, educated, and creative "class" of the Renaissance period. Those people usually had significant freedom from the demands of subsistence work (iow had significant leisure) and pursued whatever they thought it was good to pursue in that time. In the thread here it seem more like a status gained through solving the FI equation a certain way. In the everyday sense such status might be achieved through understanding where your interests (sometimes passions) lie, making the time to pursue those interests, and to do so in the spirit of self improvement and betterment of the [world/society/community/place]. That's much more general than what I now think you were asking.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@jacob:

Whether a person is trying to maximize "money to save" OR "money to spend", the efficient solution is to always trade your time/energy/attention for highest pay-rate at margin. Contract work is becoming more common-place, but most people are still locked into accepting a 40+ hours position in order to earn their top pay-rate. Beyond this time commitment, individuals must devote some time to personal care work-tasks such as killing dental plaque, e coli and dust mites, and feeding self, children, domestic animals and houseplants.

I recently tried to estimate the bare minimum hours I would have to hire somebody to come in and do all necessary housework for my mother, so that she could continue to live "independently" in her luxury apartment, and I came up with a total of 22.5 hours/month, even given no food preparation. A human being, very-young/ill/invalid, or domestic animal who requires personal care (assistance with basic grooming, feeding and toileting) in order to live "independently" (maintain own household or be home alone while parents are at work or remain locked in enclosure) would require many more hours of hired help simply because the cycle of trash removal from a kitchen can be extended to two days, but humans/domestic animals need to be fed and toileted more frequently. So, even if you imagine the worst-case scenario of a lounge-about, useless, basement-dwelling slacker, AT LEAST that individual is no longer a 3 year old who is calling for somebody to come help him wipe his butt after pooping.

Obvious known thing that simple domestic production and maintenance work is not included in GDP, so much growth over last 40-100 years has simply been broken window effect. Since most humans who are competent enough to wipe their own butt and brush their own teeth, would also be competent enough to swab out a toilet and load a dishwasher for another human, and individuals possessing enough competence to remember to latch a gate so a dog can't get out, would likely also possess enough competence to babysit 8 self-check-out stations at a Wal-Mart, the average pay-rate for basic service work on the open market might be applied to the simplest level of domestic production and maintenance. So, this pay-rate would always be the lowest rung step down the ladder from top marginal specialized professional wage-rate, even if not currently manifested as second-cash income.

IOW, given abatement of outstanding debt and dependent-care obligations, there is no individual participating on this forum (or individual capable of wiping own butt) who does not possess the free choice to lower cash-spend to the level of 1 Jacob and immediately semi-retire to something like $7000/$10-$20/hr = less than 10 hours of paid employment/week. Therefore, I would suggest that the motivation to save up enough money to achieve complete financial independence or completely free use of own time is more along the lines of the motivation to train to run a marathon.

OTOH, if achieving the Renaissance Ideal, rather than simply freeing up time from paid work, is more the goal of ERE, then it is obviously the case that this Ideal is not achieved at the level of a human who has achieved the multi-competencies of Tooth-Brushing/Bread-Toasting/Change-Making, but something more along the lines of Author/Physicist/Independent-Investor, and there are many realms in which one could achieve a very high level of acknowledged competence, demonstrated value and even mastery without making much cash money. For instance, Organist/Mother-of-5/World-Class Badminton Champion.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@IlliniDave:

I agree. Now quantify it, so we can all track it in our spreadsheets.-lol

Jason

Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by Jason »

(a) Illini Dave.

I agree. Today's definition of renaissance man is jack of all trades, master of none. I had an uncle like that. The thing was, he pretty much sucked at everything he did (jeweler, gun trader, acoustic instrument maker) and was wrong on most of his ideas (too many to name). His house was just a fucked up mess of half-ass projects and his dinner table discussion a fucked up mess of half baked ideas.

The Renaissance itself was about re-capturing the idealized version of the past, specifically ancient Greece and Rome. It's scholarly ideal was humanism, not the secular humanism we know today, but essentially scholarship, as exemplified by Erasmus. It resulted in the demystification of the world. The medieval period, which they referred to as The Dark Ages, was an inhabited world where goblins roamed the forest, natural and political events were viewed as a sign of God's wrath, psychological disorders viewed as demon possessions. But it sill ultimately retained a basic Judeo-Christianity as its basis (Sistine Chapel). Its return to the "fount" i.e. the great sources of knowledge as opposed to mystico/religious sources led to the Reformation and then rationalism (Enlightenment). It ultimately led to the dissolution of The Holy Roman Church and then Christianity's hegemony over intellectual life.

My point is it that it was complicated, but at its roots involved a rigorous, intellectual, commitment/questioning on the pursuit of truth and questioning of basic reality. It was far from a self-fulfillment movement espousing "I'm going to be good at a lot of different shit."

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Ego
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Re: Is FI prerequisite to Renaissance Ideal?

Post by Ego »

IlliniDave wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:09 am
7wb5, maybe there is more than one understanding of Renaissance Ideal floating around in the discussion. To me it is more of an everyday definition that is an outgrowth from the movement of the cultured, educated, and creative "class" of the Renaissance period.
I've posted this a couple of times. It is my ideal for polymath/Renaissance man and the basis of my posts above.

https://aeon.co/essays/we-live-in-a-one ... a-polymath

I travelled with Bedouin in the Western Desert of Egypt. When we got a puncture, they used tape and an old inner tube to suck air from three tyres to inflate a fourth. It was the cook who suggested the idea; maybe he was used to making food designed for a few go further. Far from expressing shame at having no pump, they told me that carrying too many tools is the sign of a weak man; it makes him lazy. The real master has no tools at all, only a limitless capacity to improvise with what is to hand. The more fields of knowledge you cover, the greater your resources for improvisation.

A limitless capacity to improvise. Seems to me to be a useful skill to cultivate.

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