Political correctness run amok

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
7Wannabe5
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

6 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
The smallest living human grouping with a unique sense of self is the individual. The smallest living human grouping with the ability to reproduce is the sexual dyad. IOW, somebody is going to have provide support for all the big-headed wobble-neck babies. Can't shrug off that problem and still have a sustainable system.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

"who is john galt?^^ "

We could also answer the question of what would happen if the capitalists left their positions by looking to reality instead of libertarian wank fiction.

http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/how-c ... ry-workers

James_0011
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by James_0011 »

@7w5

Why do we need babies?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@James_0011:

To survive as an individual you do not need a baby. To survive as a species we need babies. I am currently reading a book that explains how sexual reproduction is related to non-linear dynamics. It has to do with the discharge of waste from an open system in an energy state away from equilibrium. Human beings eat food which is highly organized and then they excrete waste which is less organized, thereby keeping themselves in a dynamic state away from the equilibrium which the second law of thermodynamics would impose on a closed system. Eventually a human being reaches a size and level of complexity that makes the emergent property of sexual reproduction possible. Then the human being's structure will be altered in a manner that will cause it to engage in a cognition of environment known as mating. Eventually that human being will be no longer able to maintain the ability to self-organize structure or engage in cognition of environment and a process known as death, or end of self will occur, but it will remain statistically likely that the other human beings that resulted from the mating(s) of that human being will continue to eat organized matter and excrete disorganized matter in dynamic, creative rebellion against the entropic arrow of time.

Riggerjack
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

And I have to ask myself if race is X percent correlated to poverty, but poverty is 100 percent correlated to poverty, why we are talking about race. If race is X percent correlated with privilege, and class is 100 percent correlated to privilege, why we are talking about race.
I had a longer, drawn out post over in the white supremacy run amok thread, but quite rightfully, some of our best are no longer posting over there.

Since it is relevant here, and I really am looking for an answer that doesn't confirm my already negative suspicions, I am posting this here.

Peanut
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Peanut »

I wanted to reply to something in particular that Brute wrote about hypothetical employers hypothetically choosing to underpay black vs Asian employees. I immediately thought of that study of how white-sounding named applicants (Beth) got 50% more callbacks than black-sounding named applicants (Lakisha). So the likelihood of getting hired in the first place as a black person isn't equal.

As for class and/or/vs race the intersectionality of identities isn't unimportant. I was just reading about incarceration from the 70s in the war on drugs. Use is pretty consistent across demographics but the meting out of punishment has not been. Now the rural (white) opioid crisis gets a lot of attention and the discourse is about prevention and treatment, which is great, but seems hypocritical to many observers who saw crack abuse so demonized in the culture at large.

I do think colleges would do well to rework affirmative-action type policies to prioritize socioeconomic diversity. As the chart suggests, racial diversity would simultaneously be addressed to a significant degree.

Campitor
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Campitor »

Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:47 pm

And I have to ask myself if race is X percent correlated to poverty, but poverty is 100 percent correlated to poverty, why we are talking about race. If race is X percent correlated with privilege, and class is 100 percent correlated to privilege, why we are talking about race.

I had a longer, drawn out post over in the white supremacy run amok thread, but quite rightfully, some of our best are no longer posting over there.

Since it is relevant here, and I really am looking for an answer that doesn't confirm my already negative suspicions, I am posting this here.
Because race is the easiest means of identification at a visual level, people are most apt to draw incorrect conclusions in regards to correlation similar to someone who sits on their stoop all day and constantly sees people in red shirts tripping on a crack in the sidewalk. Being Black, White, Latino, etc., doesn't predispose someone to misery or success in life anymore than a red shirt predisposes someone to tripping on sidewalk cracks.

The reasons for poverty are many and complex:
  • Low skilled labor has been replaced by automation or sourced internationally.
  • Constant influx of low skilled immigrants competing for the remaining low skilled jobs.
  • The constant rise of minimum wage which suppresses hiring and encourages automation.
  • The culture of poverty and its crab mentality that is quick to ostracize anyone trying to move vertically.
There is so much more to add to this list. Trying to solve just one of these issues is hard and the solutions would most likely be debated aggressively with any solution most likely costing someone something. It's much easier to conjure a racial boogie-man and call it a day - this status quo is much easier to accept and allows people to maintain the incorrect narrative they have accepted without question or analysis - too much cognitive dissonance for the mind to take.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Peanut wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:02 pm
I wanted to reply to something in particular that Brute wrote about hypothetical employers hypothetically choosing to underpay black vs Asian employees. I immediately thought of that study of how white-sounding named applicants (Beth) got 50% more callbacks than black-sounding named applicants (Lakisha). So the likelihood of getting hired in the first place as a black person isn't equal.

As for class and/or/vs race the intersectionality of identities isn't unimportant. I was just reading about incarceration from the 70s in the war on drugs. Use is pretty consistent across demographics but the meting out of punishment has not been. Now the rural (white) opioid crisis gets a lot of attention and the discourse is about prevention and treatment, which is great, but seems hypocritical to many observers who saw crack abuse so demonized in the culture at large.

I do think colleges would do well to rework affirmative-action type policies to prioritize socioeconomic diversity. As the chart suggests, racial diversity would simultaneously be addressed to a significant degree.
Great point, but be careful. This is not politically correct discussion for this forum.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Peanut wrote:I wanted to reply to something in particular that Brute wrote about hypothetical employers hypothetically choosing to underpay black vs Asian employees. I immediately thought of that study of how white-sounding named applicants (Beth) got 50% more callbacks than black-sounding named applicants (Lakisha). So the likelihood of getting hired in the first place as a black person isn't equal.
I think a study that asks a question like that is part of the problem rather than part of the solution. What if the two names were Tammy Sue and Aliya? Or Oprah Winfrey and Eliza Doolittle? When I volunteered as a parent-helper in my daughter's rural-location kindergarten, I noticed that all of the most poorly behaved children were boys whose parents had given them cowboy names like Dustin or Cody. The name Lakisha doesn't just signal "black", it signals "low income inner-city black", and more crucially "low income inner-city black female whose parents chose a name with that signal." A white child whose parents chose to name him Cody is more likely to shout expletives in a kindergarten class than a black child whose parents chose to name him Tyler or Bilal.

What happens in a rural kindergarten when a white child named Cody shouts expletives is that the old-school heavy-set woman in her 60s teacher sits the kids in a circle and says "We all heard what Cody said. Most of us know that we do not say words like that in school. Most of us know that we do not say words like that anywhere we want to have friends. Cody does not know this yet, because Cody's parents say words like that too, and they did not teach him to not say words like that. So, we are all going to have to help Cody learn to not say words like that in school. Raise your hand if you understand." And, of course, Tyler's black grandmother says similar things to him when you inform her of his misbehavior, and she can see that you are a fair-minded person trying to do a job. She tells Tyler "You know better than that. I taught you better than that." Lakisha's mother doesn't show up for the conference. Lakisha's little brother falls asleep on his desk burning up with a fever and nobody comes to pick him up. Cody is out of school for 4 months because he was mauled by a pit bull while his parents were stoned on alcohol and downers.

Campitor
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Campitor »

Women were incorrectly barred from orchestras because of chauvinistic ideas regarding female attributes; men incorrectly and stupidly assumed that women lacked the stamina and strength to play an instrument at the same level as men. Even after studies debunked these prejudiced fallacies, women were still woefully underrepresented in orchestras. So some orchestra's started conducting blind auditions. Musicians were assigned numbers and performed behind a curtain that would prevent them from being seen; this practice led to a vastly increased hiring of women into the Orchestra. Perhaps its time for other professions to follow a similar model in order to guarantee that the best candidate is hired regardless of sex, race, or ethnicity.

The names Cody and Lakisha being predisposed to certain behaviors is similar to the Red Shirt fallacy I wrote about earlier. In a culture where red shirts are popular, red shirt wearers will be statistically over-represented in all categories and events. A red shirt will not increase the chances of fitting into any categories or increase the likelihood of an occurrence anymore than wearing a white shirt will lessen the occurrence of a statistically greater probability.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

One of the earliest studies in the science of sociology examined poverty and class in London in the early 20th century. The number one factor that determined whether a child would stay stuck in the very lowest income class was how much alcohol his mother consumed. Poor maternal care will not be overcome. Doesn't matter if you are the poor little black child named Da'Veon burning up with strep throat fever in the portable unit that has been set up as a temporary first grade in a blighted neighborhood surrounded otherwise by the affluence of 21st century America or never will grow tall, very pale 5th son of alcoholic mother in 1905 London. Shame, shame, shame on us for allowing this to continue to happen. Shame, shame, shame on every affluent idiot sitting off in some ivory tower spinning theories that would inform them that the white person in authority in such a situation is racist and directly to blame. I have been the white person in direct authority in that situation and I am telling you the primary problem isn't racism it is that you didn't show up to volunteer to help me. Instead you wasted your time just signaling the proper attitude to each other. Or not.

The problem in our society is that nobody is doing "woman's work" anymore, because everybody wants to be elite and independent.

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GandK
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by GandK »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:17 am
The problem in our society is that nobody is doing "woman's work" anymore, because everybody wants to be elite and independent.
This is brilliant, true, and sad.

It's also not because men. At all. Raise your hand if you're a woman and you've been shamed by other women for spending your day caring for your own offspring.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@GandK: Shame or scare. Lack of trust has become pandemic.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:17 am
The problem in our society is that nobody is doing "woman's work" anymore, because everybody wants to be elite and independent.
or, because if human males are around children, they're considered pedophiles. even their own children.

brute knows human males that have told him they will not be alone in a room with any of their extended family's children, because they fear being falsely accused of something. they will leave the room if need be. they will not babysit, they will not change diapers, they will not watch the kid for 5 minutes while mommy is in the kitchen fixing dinner.

must be great.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@BRUTE:

Right. Other side of the same coin of the institutionalization of the maternal. I know several affluent men who were basically strong-armed out of custody of their children on the basis of not exhibiting perfect behavior. One of the top purchasers of advertising air time for pro-Trump radio shock jocks in my region is a law firm specializing in defending men in divorce custody battles. If you think your young single peers are driven to the right by hurt feelings, imagine the middle-aged guy called to account for every asinine thing he ever said or did in the heat of a declining spiral of mutual marital sadism with his continuing relationship with his children at stake. If you go postal you lose. If you don't go postal you lose.

An aspirational-class techie friend of mine hasn't seen his kids in 3 years. He still puts all of his extra money into a trust fund for them and keeps old pictures and toys around his house. His girlfriend couldn't deal. His dog just died. I am worried about him.

This isn't about the loss of some imagined previous privilege. There is real pain out there. I think this is why Steve Bannon.

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Jean
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Jean »

Maybe, it could be worth it to talk about white males feeling. We can't agree on what are the facts, but as in the end, people act on feelings, an open non judgmental talk about them could help solve those issues.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Jean:

Well, rationals tend towards wanting to believe that they behave in alignment with their thoughts rather than their feelings. However, I would agree that if you take the white male human population as a whole, the average might be more like Captain Kirk than Mr. Spock. And, Captain Kirk would be totally busted on sexual harassment charges on the basis of his behavior in at least 10 episodes.

The presidential election results were very skewed on the basis of gender. A lot of this actually had to do with the fact that more middle-towards-aspirational class females work in public service vs. private industry positions, given a corporate world that pays highly for engineers and tech-types. Very common in my region, at least, for a female with a master's degree in social work or education to be married to a man who is a senior engineer or project manager. These couples, individuals who theoretically pool all of their economic resources, split their vote right down the middle of their marital bed for reasons they perhaps both felt emotionally, but also for reasons that could readily be categorized as "voting pocketbook." The few exceptions that proved the rule in my social circle made this very clear to me. For instance, I knew of only 1 white female public-school teacher (profession that has very strong union in my region) who voted for Trump, and the very easy to ascertain explanation for her behavior is that in addition to teaching, she owns and operates a private industry business with her husband as partner. I knew of 2 white male public-school teachers who voted for Trump, and the easy to ascertain explanation for their behavior was they were fed-up with the system and about to retire.

The proportion of married females who are not employed outside the home is much higher in rural areas than urban areas. Real estate is less expensive, but commutes to centers of employment are much longer, so the choice to have one parent remain at home is more likely. So, a middle-class white rural dweller would be less likely to vote her own individual public-sector pocketbook with Hillary, and more likely to vote her private-sector household pocket-book with Trump.

The reason why I can see this all very clearly is that just prior to the election I was semi-simultaneously dating a white male with a high-level job in public sector, a black male who was self-employed in the finance sector but also involved in local politics, and a white male with a high-level job in the private sector, and I had just ended a long-term relationship with a green man who was self-employed after early retiring from a high-level job in the private sector.

My point here being that behind all the hand-wringing and shouting, I rarely have been unable to feret out rational self-interest in alignment with voting on the part of anybody on any side. But whenever I try to talk about this, everybody gets mad at me because I am behaving too much like a person who doesn't have any feelings, like Mr. Spock, and that is especially unattractive behavior in a female.

The Old Man
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by The Old Man »

Jean wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:03 pm
Maybe, it could be worth it to talk about white males feeling. We can't agree on what are the facts, but as in the end, people act on feelings, an open non judgmental talk about them could help solve those issues.
Feelings? Are you crazy. Men deal in logic. Women care about feelings. What may be at issue is the worldview based on the facts as they know them, may not be a correct interpretation.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

My worldview informs me that Persian men deal more in feelings than Bosnian men, with American men someplace in between, but they are all still thugs. Except, maybe, just maybe, Ed Sheeran.

baska
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by baska »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:53 am
...prior to the election I was semi-simultaneously dating a white male with a high-level job in public sector, a black male who was self-employed in the finance sector but also involved in local politics, and a white male with a high-level job in the private sector, and I had just ended a long-term relationship with a green man who was self-employed after early retiring from a high-level job in the private sector.
WOW. I love your posts. So many men. Just two private questions if I may (be so nosy):Whats is your lovers number of the 2017 year to this day? Would you date Klingon?
sincerly
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