Ok. This sounds like a wild emotional roller coaster ride. On one hand mom says she'll tear up any checks you send and on the other she asks for money.
She only said that after I started suggesting they couldn't afford the two bedroom and extra car. But, yes, she is irrational and manipulative.
I have not yet mastered systems level analysis myself, so I keep falling back on good old metrics and rules of thumb to avoid the swamp of even lower functioning.
That said, all you have to do is read some over-anthologized Kafka and first-year Econ textbooks to recognize that your situation falls into a complex problem sub-set that will only be rendered worse through such measures as over-responsible-functioning on the part of one family member or institutionalized rent-control. How to proceed from knowing what it is worse than useless to do to knowing what it would be useful to do is a bit trickier. I do know that if/when the situation becomes a true emergency somebody (or something in the realm of natural consequences) will exert authority.
For instance, in the situation with my out-of-control sister, unless she was alone in the desert, somebody was going to dial 911 to come take her away, so I chose to do it, and although she will never ever thank me for it, that was the right thing to do. Or if you consider the sort of events preppers prep for, one thought I have always had, based on my observation/experience in emergency situations, is that one skill it would be important to have would be the ability to quickly figure out which person who was suddenly issuing orders you ought to follow. Sometimes (even though it sucks rocks) that person will be you.
Ok. I get it Dinosaur. She's kind of like Greece. She wants Euro bailouts but doesn't want the austerity. Man, the more I think about it she sounds like a kid.
Whoa 7W, you are carrying a lot. I always get some perspective when I read about your situation with your sister et al..
@7, No reading is required to recognize this as a "complex problem". And its not entirely clear that there is a "right" thing to do. I can only guess at the potential outcomes.
@Sclass, Its weird that I used to think of my mom as the mature, responsible one. I can't explain how that idea persisted in my head for so long. It really does feel like talking to an over emotional teenager sometimes. Its possible the indignant entitlement I'm getting from her is just a terrified animal response. Begging your kids for help has got to feel awful. All the more reason I feel like I should help.
I am you: just 20 years later. Based on my experience, I would not bail them out now, mostly because it's likely you'll have to bail them out in the future. It's much easier to say "no" (or just not volunteer) when they're younger and still able bodied enough to work at something, and they haven't exhausted other options like bankruptcy or downsizing.
But when faced with issues when they're 80, disabled from something like in my mom's case, Parkinson's, and she can't afford her medications after Medicare is exhausted (I assume you live in the US, if not you won't have to deal with that issue), it's much, much harder. I pay fo a cleaning lady for my mom, occasional groceries, all meals out, and right now meds for the rest of the year.
My mom made bad financial decions when she was younger. We're both dealing with the fallout now. Yes, I do resent it.... but she's my mom. I wish I'd thought a little more what the future looked like when she was 60; I would have done some things differently.
There is a pattern of behaviors summed up there that is very common among people I don't get along with well. Extremely social people tend to want to fulfill one of those three roles, and force everyone else into one of the rest. You can see this in action, by changing your role in the conversation. Roles change all the time, so this will just be temporary.
If you find this fits,you may also find it upsetting. I did. The way I got around it is to realize that my way of thinking (problems > search for solutions> implement solutions) emotionally satisfying to me, but not my mom. Her way (problems > culprit > DRAMA) is satisfying to her, but not me. So I disengaged.
I have become the son who comes to the rescue, on very rare occasions, but is otherwise too busy to be involved in the dramafest.
Update: I caved and sent them a couple grand. But no commitment for ongoing payments. They got more than they were anticipating for the house, and my dad called and asked for enough to cover them until the payout. My brother offered to look into helping them get out of the car lease, but they aren't being forthcoming with that. We'll see.
I remember reading about the drama triangle on Archdruid Report. Never thought of applying it to this, but it does seem to fit.
And +1 to solutions/problem-solving being emotionally satisfying. I can't get into the heads of people who would rather complain about the thing than fix the thing.
I can't get into the heads of people who would rather complain about the thing than fix the thing.
Given a problem ... there are more folks who want to bond over complaining about it than there are people who want to solve it. That is how [we] humans are.
I cut my mom off after she just wouldn't take any responsibility for herself. Eventually she got 2 DUI's and I was completely done and let her deal with and haven't talked to her in over 2 years. She moved 400 miles away to be near family and I'm sure nothing has changed. I think she's still paying off the fines.
I won't lie by saying it was easy. Many times I have felt a lot of guilt, but you need to realize that if people won't help themselves first you cannot begin to help other than with short term fixes.
Don't let anyone mooch on your hard earned dollars, no matter how much your DNA matches. In your case I wouldn't even consider giving them any money. A 6 figure mortgage and credit card debt at their age and one of them not even trying to work at paying it off? No chance in hell.
In Europe children are obliged by law to pay some money to their parents in case of their bankrupcy or if they have to live on some form of social help. The court decides how much a child should pay. Excemptions are made in case the child has been abused by the parents.
In Europe children are obliged by law to pay some money to their parents in case of their bankrupcy or if they have to live on some form of social help. The court decides how much a child should pay. Excemptions are made in case the child has been abused by the parents.
I live in Europe and haven't heard of any such law. Maybe this law exists in certain countries?
29 states in the US have filial responsibility laws which require children to pay for medical care for impoverished parents, including nursing home care. There have been a couple of court cases in a couple states that have held that the federal law trumps the state filial responsibilty law, so basically facilities can't collect for the additional costs if there's Medicaid in place. They can, however, still go after the children if there's not Medicaid, which might happen in a situation where a parent is a non-citizen. (A person can get Medicaid if they have insufficient resources to pay for their nursing home care, if they qualify for Medicaid).
I live in Europe and haven't heard of any such law. Maybe this law exists in certain countries?
I know of at least 2 European countries where this is the case. This law is mostly case law (court law) and not written in any form of paragraphs.
It hapens mostly like this:
In country A an impoverished parent sues his/her child for alimony. The court agrees. Now it is case law for all other similar situations.
In country B care home of some impoverished parent sue his/her child to partly cover the expenses. The court agrees. Now it is also a case law in the country B.
In many European countries it went like that. It is therfore probable that the courts in most of European countries will follow this case law. Especially now with ageing society, where a lot of elderly will live in poverty.
I wonder, though, how filial responsibility laws work in Europe since there is a strong safety net in place for things like healthcare. If the society has already assumed responsibility in one way or another for healthcare, for example, what sorts of things are children typically held responsible for?
I thought of something. Pretend your current situation with your folks is actually happening one year earlier and you are looking at one year later so you have the hindsight benefit of one year of 20/20 vision.
So imagine that you have done some interventions in the one year earlier scenario (given money, help etc). How do you predict they would have worked out one year later which is the actual present time. From outside eye's looking in, and without knowing too much about anyone in this situation personally, I would predict your interventions would have a negative effect or ill effect or neutral effect. Probably not major positive effects. Why? Inertia. So I would say let your parents be.
Here is my skin in the game in a similar scenario.
My parents are fairly well off enough, but they still have a lot of clutter and crap at home that they are not getting rid of, so it will probably be me who has to deal with it at some point. Should I scold them to clean up their knick nacks and canoes in the garage while they still have the energy to do so? Or should I do nothing and probably just deal with it when they are too old or have died or are moving out and can't do any/all of the work themselves? I know my interventions likely will have negative or ill effects, so I am just leaving it on the shelf. Perhaps if I get into a position of better negotiating power at some point I may step in but currently it's likely a waste of emotional energy.
One more side story..
A guy felt he needed to get in the housing market because his wife was on his case and offered him an ultimatum to buy after years of renting. So the kids had their own space or something like that..so the guy buys a home, and years pass, his daughter, now in her late teens/early twenties decides to move out with her average boyfriend and rent a basement suite (gave up free rent and food at home to do so, rules too strict). And wife has left the husband anyways. Husband has taken on even more debt and sells the house for basically the same price as he bought it. Was it the right decision to give in? Probably not.
I wonder, though, how filial responsibility laws work in Europe since there is a strong safety net in place for things like healthcare. If the society has already assumed responsibility in one way or another for healthcare, for example, what sorts of things are children typically held responsible for?
Well, different things can happen. For example:
In country A there is a safety net. Elderly person can cover from it their expenses (however those benefits are getting smaller as the costs of living rise in Europe). Alas this person is slowly getting Alzheimer disease. Now he/she needs to be palced in a special care home. Here some of these homes require that this person covers part of the expenses (say 10 percent) from their own money. If the elderly person had some financial assets the welfare agency will size those assets in order to cover these costs. If the elderly peson has no assets but children they will try to get this money from his/hers children.
This is only one example but it works (among others) like that.