7WB5- Take 3

Where are you and where are you going?
halfmoon
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by halfmoon »

I was glad to see your update, as I've been fretting in a completely non-stalkerish way. ;) It's hard to step away from a loved one's poor choices and still maintain the relationship. Lucy and Ethel for the win!

Between the free summer housing, BF crashing and Princess room visiting, it seems that you could just practice polyhomery and use your camper as a periodic retreat. Nevertheless, some thoughts on your listed problems:

1. I'm trying to think of alternative cooking schemes and can only come up with solar oven or burying a dutch oven in your compost pile. I've never actually heard of doing the latter, but...

Really, unless you want to cook a lot of stuff or bake things, I would consider just getting a camp stove that takes disposable propane cylinders. You can refill the disposable cylinders if you have the right adapter and a friend with a big tank or some non-compliant filling station. The problem with fixing your camper's system is that you'll have to transport full propane cylinders when you run out (also when you first start). These are not light, and if you're having them filled at a legit place? They have to be periodically re-certified, fitted with overfill protection devices (because we're all apparently stupid enough to leave our full tanks in a hot car for hours) and transported per regulation. Blah, blah.

2. I'm wondering what you mean by mini-well. Is the water table close to the surface where you live? Would it be clean? Discreet? How would you pump and filter it? Rainwater catchment is cool if you have sufficient year-round rainfall, but I'd hesitate to drink it. If it's not potable, you don't really want to run it through your trailer pipes unless you don't plan to periodically (maybe while snowbirding?) hook up to/use potable water.

If you want to shower in your camper, you can bypass the plumbing entirely by using a 5-gallon bucket and a little 12-volt pump. That's actually even optional. I've taken plenty of showers that consisted of standing in a shower stall and slowly pouring warm (heated on a propane or wood stovetop) water over myself with a saucepan dipper. It's even better if you have someone else to do the pouring, but again...optional.

3. Winter? All else being equal (which it never is), migration wins hands down. The propane furnaces in RVs are horrible. They suck propane and feature excessive blowing heat alternating with freezing cold until they cycle back to blowing. Is there any possibility of running a long extension cord to someone's house and hooking up a space heater, or are there no inhabited houses nearby? Also: RVs sweat in cold weather. Pretty darn miserable.

I can see, however, that snowbirding might put a crimp in your relationship. How about moving the trailer to your BF's yard for the winter? You could cook him a great meal several times per week in payment, thereby solving the cooking issue. Web of goals! :D

4. I'm the last person to offer advice on storage. Hoarders-R-Us.

5. Solar can be a great investment, more in terms of independence/satisfaction than actual dollars, but it really depends on how dedicated you are to the trailer long-term. I would also be a little concerned about someone climbing on the roof and re-homing the panels.

Everyone talks here about social capital, which you seem to have in spades. Nothing wrong with utilizing capital.

7Wannabe5
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@halfmoon: Thanks for the suggestions. Our great minds are already occupying overlapping Venn diagram space ;) Polyhomery (like it!)shall be my new lifestyle practice.

1) There are large propane canisters available at a store less than a mile from my camper, and hauling one in my bike cart wouldn't be a big deal. My propane wok also uses the large size. My biggest dilemma remains how on the down-low I want to keep things. Otherwise, even a fire-pit would be okay for local code. For better or worse, I am an identified "character" in my community, but most people seem to like me. The owner of the corner ethnic market even gives me a friendly neighbor discount.

2) I could probably hit table with a narrow drill less than 15 ft. deep, but I will probably go with catchment system. Precipitation is moderate and fairly steady throughout the year here. Drinking water won't be a problem because I can easily keep a couple full gallons on hand in my urban setting. I was considering a solar pump, but I think a watering can with a rope-pull would be just as easy. Vanity will compel the occasional use of a serious pressure shower with proper sewage so that I can maintain my sunny yellow hair tone.

3) Yeah, I do not want to haul my archaic camper over anything resembling a hill, so I think my plan for this year will be extended holiday visit to the Princess room followed by Megabus to white beach tent-bike camping in off-season-rate South Carolina. My BF does not currently have a yard because he decided to rent until his ex buys him out of last house. Also, he thinks he is a better cook than me. Anyways, our relationship isn't "serious" enough to keep me from doing anything I want to do this winter.

4) I like to de-clutter periodically, so will actually have some fun with this.

5) I have had pretty good luck with not being vandalized so far, but I don't want to push it. Maybe I will just get some more portable/collapsible units like the 60 watt roll-up one I already own. Maybe I could hook up some battery-charging stationary pedal toys for the street urchins.

halfmoon
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by halfmoon »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:30 pm
There are large propane canisters available at a store less than a mile from my camper, and hauling one in my bike cart wouldn't be a big deal.
I was imagining you trying to put a propane cylinder in your front bike basket. How could I have forgotten about the bike cart? It was hilarious when you wrote about the woman at the dollar store looking at your bike and saying, "You must be Canadian."

I also can't believe that I never thought of a watering can for showering. Perfect.

enigmaT120
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by enigmaT120 »

My mom lived in an RV for several years but she was at a park and hooked up to electricity. And western Oregon doesn't get as cold as I think the mid-west does.... I would want the propane system working properly anyway. Isn't the cook stove also plumbed with the heat? What's wrong with the propane network?

And I still don't understand where you are living that you're not supposed to live. I doubt it's zoned timberland like my place.

jacob
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by jacob »

IIRC, we had an internal 80gal tank but we mostly used external tanks (via a T-extender). We had one external 30gal and one 15gal (15 is the size that BBQ gas grill typically use and which you can exchange in those white cages at HD or WMT). For refilling, note that some gas stations will only refill if you're buying more than 20lbs---I suppose this is to avoid wasting time on those who just want to top off their propane grills.

A 34' on the 15gal tank in California covered with two very heavy popypropylene tarps and the internal temperate set around 60F (anything lower and the condensation would be too high) would burn through the 15 gal in 4-5 days during CA wintertime---meaning 35F outside temperature. Conversely, when only used for cooking, we didn't need to refill for half the year during summer time.

[I recall more than one time when the furnace would run out of gas in the middle of the night... and because these furnaces are primitive the furnace fan would proceed to blow cold outside air in, not realizing that the burner wasn't on. We'd wake up and it's be 42F in the bedroom or somesuch. The smaller your tank, the greater the probability.]

Dunno how insulated your RV is, but if it's standard (like most of them), all that's between you and the elements is a few millimeters of vinyl and maybe 1/4" worth of plywood. The heat goes right out and in MI winter, I'd expect the furnace to run round the clock just to keep the water/sewage pipes from freezing. I do not know for sure though. When we drove through WY in the winter(*), we saw people living in RVs. They all had giant 250gal+ tanks sitting outside. At that size, the gas company (AmeriGas?) will come around and refill them.

(*) Which seems closer to MI temps than MI temps are to CA temps?

One of our neighbors, who lived in a mobile home, never bothered to heat in the winter. They were always sitting inside with the front door open bunched up like a couple of Michelin men. One can get used to that. Keep in mind that there's condensation to deal with because the room is so small. You have the same problem in the winter as with tents. And you don't want that. This is also why our thermostat was set at 60F and not 55F.

tommytebco
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by tommytebco »

enigma,
She lives in Detroit, post riot.
Recall the news reels of post war Europe. That's what some areas of Detroit look like.

The City of Detroit apparently doesn't enforce the old zoning regulations presently, but I suppose they are still on the books. since the old zoning laws are on the books, their resurrection is always a threat.

Edit I forgot she lives in Hamtramck not Detroit. (an encapsulated by Detroit city. When I lived in 'detroit area it was said to be a mainly polish area.)
Last edited by tommytebco on Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

7Wannabe5
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

enigmaT120 wrote:And I still don't understand where you are living that you're not supposed to live. I doubt it's zoned timberland like my place.
.

My garden lots are zoned residential, but my camper clearly does not meet code for occupancy as a residence. Due to exemption made for owners of ice cream trucks, it is clearly legal to keep my camper parked on my lot as long as it has valid plate/registration and maintains nominal appearance of portability, such as inflated tires. However, the regulations concerning camping on private land, whether in a camper, tent or tiny house on trailer are more of a gray zone.

I have read the code for the tiny city within a city where my property is located, and can't find reference. Therefore, it should be the case that the county regulations would apply. I have not yet been able to find these, but one nearby county has 2 month limit. Since I own three lots, that would give me 6 months. However, I will likely only be staying there for a few nights in a row at a time maximum, due to intended practice of poly-homely, so...may likely come down to whether or not anybody complains or notices, and then whether or not anybody is able or willing to expend the resources necessary to do anything about enforcement.

vexed87
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by vexed87 »

@7wb, have you thought about rocket stoves/earth/tandoor ovens? If you set them up right, smoke is kept to a minimum, which should help you fly under the radar. Rocket stoves can be portable, so ideal if you are asked to move on. Earth ovens should be possible to build using local materials, so inexpensive, if you discount the labour that goes into them, and tandoor ovens, well, I just threw that in as a bonus. I don't know as much about them yet, but had a friend recommend I look into them so thought I would add that too. Pair any of these with a dutch oven and you are good to go.

You might want to construct some sort of overhead shelter so you are not forced indoors to the propane stove in poor weather, these techniques are more efficient than open fire pits too, so reduce the amount of wood fuel you would need to keep on hand to burn. I'd definitely fix the propane stove so you can fall back on it if you are drawing too much attention, the rocket stove would definitely be the better closed loop system in your situation.

I just got a copy of this and can recommend it if you are interested in the clay/earth oven:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Build-Your-Own ... earth+oven

7Wannabe5
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions, but now moot due to even quicker than expected fail of extreme lifestyle project due to being swept up /shut down by draconian enforcement of noxious weed blight ordinance. Apparently, the ordinance requires that campers be arked on 4 inch concrete slab, but I likely will not be granted permit to pour slab on vacant lot that is not adjacent too residence which I own.

In a previous phase of life, I owned a very old house located in a historic district, so I have some experience with such problems. You can't fight city hall once you have attracted attention and expect net positive result, but sometimes charm can prove helpful. So, I made attempt, but only managed to change my likely identity in the eyes of the bureaucracy from something like kooky-hippie-vagrant to affluent-suburbanite-using-poor-city-as-discount-parking-lot-for-her-toys. (Sigh)

This situation is further complicated by the fact that my sister continued to exhibit her own much more extravagantly antisocial behavior after I moved out and was once again arrested on drunk and disorderly charges. My sister is an INFP, the classic Bohemian, which is the Cusp of the Scientist and the Artist. In the 90s, she was a musician in the west coast punk/black/death metal scene. According to the internet, the cd released by a band for which she did keyboard composition is best ever music to listen to if you are deeply depressed. If you can imagine a very inebriated 50 year old woman performing death metal vocals on front porch, that is what got my sister arrested.

So, a couple days ago, I stopped in to visit my sister with intent of convincing her to seek treatment for depression/paranoia underlying the behavior alcohol allows/causes her otherwise too introverted personality to exhibit. She attempted to make the argument that my desire to communicate which is frustrated by the lack of understanding for the need for resource conservation inherent inherent in the enforcement of zoning/code regulations is no different than her desire to communicate that the world is a terrible place.

I wanted to record personal details in journal, but I might start two new threads on topics along the lines of "What is Minimum Head Tax and/or Price of Liberty?" and Wheaton levels Science and Art: Compare/Contrast", IOW, is thinking dark works of art must be crazy/bad any different than thinking Copernicus crazy/bad or thinking living on less than $7000/year is crazy/bad?

I am currently waging rational battle against my ENTP urge to cash in all of my currently held chips. The man who owns the third lot adjacent to my two told me he was interested in buying mine, so if I threw photo of camper up on Craigslist and raised up the flame under my sell off of rare book inventory still stored in Amazon's warehouses, and made hard call on relationship with BF , I could be down to level of no dependents, no ongoing social contracts, and majority assets liquidated within a month or two. I am telling myself that I have to come up with some notion of better re-investment options before I do this simply for the temporary feeling of freedom it might provide.

FBeyer
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by FBeyer »

Am I reading this right?
The permaculture project is one you've referred to as a life mission several times, if I recall correctly. What was the deadline? 2021?
Are you only interested in the permaculture project IFF you can 'permanently' park the camper on the lot?

And now you're thinking of giving it up?
Clearly I must me misunderstanding something here...

Why would you need to park the camper on a 4" slab of concrete when you don't intend to park the camper there permanently? Because you totally do not intend to park the camper there permanently, you move it about from time to time and you can easily park it in different spots on your lot, right?

It's not fixed in place, it's just a camper resting on your lot and you can, like, tooooootally move it anytime you want to.
Right?

Right!

There is no need for a permanent slab for an impermanent camper, that would just be silly. Everyone in Chicago would need to pour concrete when they bought a camper. And I'm quite certain that's not the case.

jacob
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by jacob »

@FBeyer - Ha! We actually have an ordinance against "soft ground" parking (generally because of leaks). I think more importantly, it's best not to park over vegetation because the added humidity from the plants rusts the underside of the RV. Slab is best ... bare soil, second best. Grass is bad.

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jennypenny
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by jennypenny »

Also a fire hazard.

Some townships will allow gravel instead of concrete, but still not DIY for 7W5.

7Wannabe5
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@FBeyer: Unfortunately , the code clearly prohibits any parking of camper on street and any parking on lot without slab. I could make Libertarian calculation and just keep paying fines for civil infraction, but there is actually a possibility of inprisonment. I am not currently feeling up to the challenge of becoming the Rosa Parks of tiny mobile house occupation.

However, I did vow to stick with this project for 7 years,, so once I get over my urge to escape, I will likely choose to just take a break/sabbatical, put it on ice (hire street urchin caretaker), and pick up again when perspective has shifted from feeling like fish in small bowl.

I am currently staying with my BF, who has proven himself to be a rather lovable, reliable good-egg to the extent that I am inclined to overlook his tendency towards irascibility and errors in voting. However, I can't quite bring myself to overlook the fact that neither of us is head-over-heels, so I am temporarily moving back to the college town which has been my hub for most of my adult life. My mother and both my kids are living there, and a friend wants me to start ASAP on summer job helping him with old house renovation.

There are two other factors which are causing my interest in urban permaculture project to wane. When I started project, I had some rough idea of bequeathing it to one of my kids, but now that they have grown just a bit older, I can see that they are too involved in their own interests. Also, I am really feeling burned out on teaching the street urchins, in good part due to the fact that I was sick for months this winter and spring with healthy kid viruses. Since the kids I teach are constantly traveling all over the planet, it is like they would have to make a special 2 hour episode of House to track down the cause of my next weeping rash, hacking cough or facial paralysis. Or kind of like being a Peace Corps volunteer who throws in the towel after rounds of malaria and dysentery, compounded in my case by "I am too old for this shit."

vexed87
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by vexed87 »

Sheesh, your having a tough time of it. Could it be that you are biting off more than you can chew. Maybe going for full on self-reliance mode, whilst doing battle with family and the system (zoning laws) throws too many obstacles up at once. Urban permaculture is great, so long as you are not losing it all for the sake of violating some dumb restrictive covenants.

Nothing says "don't bother planting a 7 year perennial fruit and vegetable forest" like not knowing if you are going to be able to be around to manage the plot in 2 or 3 months time because the man kicked you out. Your plan requires long term thinking for the pay-off, some stability is needed to get there.

7Wannabe5
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@jacob and jennypenny:

I agree that slab would be best, but I am not even likely to get that option. It is likely that I will be denied permit to construct anything permanent, such as slab or shed, without primary structure included in plan. Hiring a professional contractor will make no difference.

@vexed87:

Yeah, I have been contemplating the option of transplanting the entire project to more rural, less covenant restricted site, but there are some downsides such as I would definitely have to own a motor vehicle. Once I put the option/expense/resource-suck of motor vehicle back into the system, there are a slew of other options to consider.

I could rent a basement efficiency within walking distance of my garden for $350/month plus gas/electric, which would only be around $100 more than I was paying to share 2 bedroom with my sister. Or I could buy a foreclosure at the tax auction in September. Likely my main problem is that current difficulties are forcing me to give some consideration to what my plans will be after theoretical project completion in fall of 2022.

Paul Wheaton recently wrote something along the lines of if untended plot is like white noise, and mono-crop field is like a dial tone then developed and maintained. Permaculture is like a symphony. I am just frustrated because I am still in early stages clear out the messy closets and construct the rough set mode, and my intention of symphony is being constricted to dial tone due to being mistaken for white noise. However, I do actually have some sympathy for the public officials who are just trying to bring this impoverished mishmash of a community up to something resembling conventional middle class standards.

7Wannabe5
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I am stuck, but hoping to become unstuck. Random babble towards that objective to follow.

I vowed that I would commit to my urban perma-culture project, make it the tack on the map of my otherwise options-open lifestyle, until Harvest 2022, but this is proving to be far more difficult than I expected. Achieving financial independence, although details only roughly sketched in, would then fall into place antecedent.

Less than a year ago, I was in a great mood, and the whole project seemed to be going very well. Lately, I have almost sunk to "throw out the baby with the bathwater" level of functioning.

I was trying to recall my train of thought prior to series of unfortunate events (which I might have done a better job of predicting), and I remembered something that caused me to realize that Permaculture does not equal Homesteading focused on Trees and Perennials. Rather, it is a set of principles based on general systems theory applied to the creation of long-term-sustainable human-optimized eco-systems.

The essential problem is that my perma-culture project is not net "creating a yield" for me and/or "reducing input of limited renewable resource of my own human labor" at the moment, so my motivation is naturally crashing. The question is am I capable of summoning up enough human intelligence to solve this problem?

If I attempt to un-knit this mess back to my first errors in judgment or failures to follow recommended practice, I would say that planting my project in place I planned to live, rather than where I actually woke up most mornings was #1 FAIL, and #2 FAIL would be committing to this project at juncture where I had just undergone major shattering relationship break-up, and was therefore in pessimistic mode when considering my desire to wake up in bed with somebody else most mornings. IOW, beyond failure to read full code relating to the possibility of dwelling in camper upon my garden-space, I did not place adequate weight upon the low probability of ever finding an attractive male peer willing to occupy a camper in a rough neighborhood with me.

Also, my personality type which is relatively high in adult feminine and youthful masculine energy and relatively low in adult masculine and youthful feminine energy, keeps me always on the verge of wanting to settle down in a cozy cottage vs. go off on a novel adventure. Therefore, if I could reduce perma-culture to a minimalist patterned skill-set which I could carry light-packed with me anywhere AND also achieve the converse, that would be my impossible ideal.

For instance, imagine the difficulties inherent in solving the challenge of waking up anywhere on any given morning and then being able to forage/maintain your daily necessities within range accessible if barefoot and in pajamas (Zone 1.) Pretty much the only way this is possible in the modern world/current economy is through a process/practice involving some combination of scavenging and "mooching" off of the waste flow of other humans, because almost every resource on the planet is owned by a human or a group of humans. Since there is a great deal of waste generation, this is usually the lowest resource use solution, but most will prefer a solution that also involves some level of value.creation/production. For instance, eating out of dumpsters and sharing a bed with a lonely stranger who is already paying for his hotel room, uses fewer resources/inputs than growing potatoes on your own land and sleeping in a tiny house you built with your boyfriend, but most would view the latter as preferable. Also, argument could be made that skills obtained in process of creating latter lifestyle will likely be of more value if you are still alive post-scavenger-era, and it is already too late to hope for conservationist solution.

However, it seems to me that it isn't always easy to recognize what constitutes a neither fish nor fowl ridiculous half-way measure sort of solution. For instance, somebody hauling their Zone 1 garden space behind them on a soil-laden trailer hitched to their van-dwelling.

slowtraveler
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by slowtraveler »

I feel your pain.

I've been gardening for nearly a decade now and feel over it. Aside from tomatoes and cucumbers, it's all been more work and less reward than I predicted.

It's okay for experience to change plans when it's clear that thoughts about what it'd be like != reality and the rewards aren't what they were previously perceived to be.

7Wannabe5
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Felipe:

The garden itself is no problem. The project is going very well. Almost throbbing with abundance. My problems mostly have to do with the humans within vicinity of the garden. My currently bat-shit sister being #1 problem. She is in jail again for violating the terms of her breatholizer-tether parole. So, now I have to take care of her dogs for the next 5 days, even though she changed the locks on the apartment because she decided that I was one of her enemies in her state of paranoid delusion. I had to roll into the apartment through a window.

My BF is going to buy my camper for what I paid for it last year, because he shopped around a bit and decided that I got a good deal. We both decided we felt more comfortable with making an official transfer of title type deal rather than just bundling his land with my camper with no clear boundaries. I am feeling very tempted to sell the garden-space to either the Permaculture Manager (my former lover who has been helping me with the project) or the guy who owns the 3rd lot adjoining and previously indicated that he was interested. I would probably let the Permaculture Manager have it for just my cost plus a trifle to cover what I invested in trees/shrubs/vines. I would expect to make more of a profit if I sell to my neighbor. So, I would end up just having to eat my sweat equity, and I guess I could write it off as fair trade for skills gained. Like the experience has been my own little self-study perma-culture design course. I really have learned a lot.

The current situation with my sister has me in an odd emotional state because (I counted) this is not the first, the second, or the 5th time that I have had to be the designated driver when a close family member or SO suffered a severe psychiatric break-down. This is at least the 10th time. I am as empty as some soldier who has watched 10 comrades get blown up next to him. It's like my own personal slow-motion zombie apocalypse. And I just want to get the f*ck out of Dodge ASAP.

sky
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by sky »

I recommend transitioning to a mobile existence, at least for a few months. A slow bicycle camping tour in the direction of cool weather might be appropriate. Your garden will be there when you return.

I approached the food strategy by simplifying my diet to oats-raisins-walnuts and fruit in the morning and beans-cabbage-tortillas and fruit for lunch and dinner. I also eat a variety of other things but those make up 50% to 75% of my diet. I am growing some berries and tomatoes but my own production is not a big part of my diet.

Sarouel
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Re: 7WB5- Take 3

Post by Sarouel »

Sorry for your sister's illness.

You sound really frustrated in your post, but is it really the garden that bothering you?
Are you living in the Dodge, or do you have other possibilities?
Is there any possibility to give up your garden, but stay in the permaculture world, like help your former lover and get paid in vegetables?

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