Trump - Clown Genius

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
Locked
Dragline
Posts: 4436
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:50 am

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

Oooh, looks like Dunning-Kruger x 2 today:

"I thought being President would be easier"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... ce=twitter

-- and --

"As the social psychologist David Dunning wrote during the campaign, “Some voters, especially those facing significant distress in their life, might like some of what they hear from Trump, but they do not know enough to hold him accountable for the serious gaffes he makes.” In other words, it’s not that they forgave Trump for being wrong, but rather that they failed “to recognize those gaffes as missteps” in the first place."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 100926836/

Dragline
Posts: 4436
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:50 am

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

Oooh, looks like Dunning-Kruger x 2 today:

"I thought being President would be easier"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... ce=twitter

-- and --

"As the social psychologist David Dunning wrote during the campaign, “Some voters, especially those facing significant distress in their life, might like some of what they hear from Trump, but they do not know enough to hold him accountable for the serious gaffes he makes.” In other words, it’s not that they forgave Trump for being wrong, but rather that they failed “to recognize those gaffes as missteps” in the first place."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 100926836/

Spartan_Warrior
Posts: 1659
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@Jacob, I think your model is Pareto-efficient in that it probably accounts for 80-90% of the voting populace. But in politics, as in permaculture, the interesting stuff happens at the margins. There are those small percentages who do "change shirts" based on the message, the candidate, whatever, and those people are the reason Clinton lost. If everyone simply voted by shirt color then Clinton would have won as was universally expected. But working class whites in traditionally Democratic strongholds like Michigan and Wisconsin--many of whom voted for Obama--instead turned out for Trump.

See: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... 55?ocid=sf

"Post-election analysis bears this out. Trump is quite popular not just his base but also amongst the next layer of the onion so to speak."

Also, I don't really see this as the case... aren't his approval ratings (deservedly) in the toilet? I've seen media and anecdotal reports of buyers' remorse among his supporters.

Chad
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

Since, I have shown zero support of any kind for Trump, I will at least give him a minor credit.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... bc46ee7681

He hasn't raised the gas tax and he hasn't put forth a bill to do so, but at least he is acknowledging that we need actual revenue to do stuff.

bryan
Posts: 1061
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:01 am
Location: mostly Bay Area

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan »

How genius would it be if some nasty version of the AHCA passes the Senate and Trump vetoes it?

Chad
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »


Riggerjack
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack »

I read this at the archdruid report, and it reminded me of this thread.
They also arrive in an impressive range of contexts, because the way of thinking about things that divides them into mind and matter is remarkably pervasive in western societies, and pops up in the most extraordinary places. Think of the way that our mainstream religions portray God as the divine Mind ruling omnipotently over a universe of passive matter; that’s the ideal toward which our notions of mind and body strive, and predictably never reach. Think of the way that our entertainment media can always evoke a shudder of horror by imagining something we assign to the category of lifeless matter—a corpse in the case of zombie flicks, a machine in such tales as Stephen King’s Christine, or what have you—suddenly starts acting as though it possesses a mind.

For that matter, listen to the more frantic end of the rhetoric on the American left following the recent presidential election and you’ll hear the same theme echoing off the hills. The left likes to think of itself as the smart people, the educated people, the sensitive and thoughtful and reasonable people—in effect, the people of Mind. The hate speech that many of them direct toward their political opponents leans just as heavily on the notion that these latter are stupid, uneducated, insensitive, irrational, and so on—that is to say, the people of Matter. Part of the hysteria that followed Trump’s election, in turn, might best be described as the political equivalent of the instinctive reaction to a zombie flick: the walking dead have suddenly lurched out of their graves and stalked toward the ballot box, the body politic has rebelled against its self-proclaimed mind!
Yeah, "zombie horror" about sums up the well balanced reaction, I think.

IlliniDave
Posts: 3845
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave »

That made me chuckle. I've got to the point now where the hysteria (it exists on both sides, red and blue) just amuses me. Hopefully people will get it all out of their system in a year or three or four.

BRUTE
Posts: 3797
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

+1 to sideline chuckling

Riggerjack
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack »

Oh, I expect we can see renewed hysteria in about 3.5 years, however it goes.

I don't know why I'm surprised that the DNC so effectively turned any anger at the Bernie/Clinton thing into Trump horror.

Not that there isn't good reason for Trump horror...

IlliniDave
Posts: 3845
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave »

I think I'm a lot less horrified by Trump than most (certainly doesn't mean I *like* him). If nothing else the near-insurrection by the professional bureaucracy (aka deep state) and media are cementing my belief that elected officials have power only insofar as they don't stray much from the script. At minimum the excessive outrage and end-of-the-world-ism are having a boy who cried wolf effect on me and I suspect the same is true for many others.

Chad
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

The lack of horror increases mine.

IlliniDave
Posts: 3845
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave »

Fair enough. I am fundamentally an optimist and I think that separates me from most here in terms of perspective. My innate skepticism leads me to look at many things with a predisposition towards "it's not as bad as it appears" undercurrent versus "it's even worse than it appears". I may rue that one day, but for the most part it serves me well.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 6851
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

The difference on the horror-meter reminds me of the Clinton-Lewinsky thing. Many conservatives, especially religious ones, were horrified at the Lewinsky affair. They found that kind of impropriety repugnant--from her age to the public discussion of debris on her dress. I remember my father (who worked in DC at the time) wondering aloud why Clinton couldn't manage to keep it zipped or at least be discreet while he was in office. When stories circulated about the stuff going on in the White House and Oval Office, my father (and many others) thought the reputation of the office of the Presidency was permanently damaged.

Fast forward to Trump. His buffoonery, shoddy performance, and ignorance of the gravitas needed in his position horrifies many (ironically) Clinton supporters, who are also horrified that conservatives aren't outraged by his behavior. Democrats are now the ones declaring the Presidency permanently damaged.

In both cases, one side found/finds the other side's tolerance of the offensive behavior abhorrent. I suppose this confirms a lot of what Haidt has been saying. Different stroke outs for different folks, depending of the flavor of the offense.

BRUTE
Posts: 3797
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

Trump's certainly been bad for the brand of the presidency. it's now common and an everyday occurrence for citizens and pundits alike to say "fuck <president of the US>", "<president of the US> is a fat fuck", "<president> is fucking his own daughter", and so on. even under Obama, that was unthinkable - or maybe just because all the pundits were on his side? the only thing brute can think of that came close in terms of disrespecting the office was the birth certificate/secret muslim nonsense.

Chad
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

@IlliniDave
Yeah, I don't think everything is going to crash and burn right away because of Trump. It just appears that Trump took office when a small part of Rome was burning and then decided to light more of it on fire instead of fighting the existing fire or at least just keeping the existing fire contained.

@Jenny
I don't think the comparison between Bill Clinton and Trump is a good one. The reason being is that Clinton's affair (probably affairs) has no bearing on anyone outside of his family and Lewinsky, while Trump's continued mismanagement of foreign and even domestic (congress, intel community, etc.) relationships does.

For instance, if John Elway is your starting QB and he cheats on his wife, he is still starting on Sundays. It doesn't impact his ability to play. However, if he begins to consistently read defenses wrong, choose the wrong receiver, make the wrong audibles, give playbooks to other teams, etc. it might be smart to draft another QB.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 6851
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

@Chad -- I'm not comparing how competent either of them are or whether their deficiencies compromised their job performance. (we could do that, but I think it's a separate issue) What I'm talking about is the 'horror' factor. I can calmly discuss Trump and his failings because even though they bother me, most don't push my buttons. Other people (including you, I think) can't talk about him without getting emotional because Trump's failings are exactly the kind that push your buttons.

To your Clinton/Elway comparison, some people felt that once Clinton's shenanigans started taking place in the White House, and with youngish interns, it called his judgment into question on everything because it showed a lack common sense and a brazenness that can be dangerous in other settings. You (and many others) didn't make that leap because you don't see sexual indiscretions as anything more than a personal matter. Fair enough, but realize that there are many people who do see it as more important and indicative of how responsible a person is. That's my whole point. Different criteria -- different levels of horror.

That doesn't mean I don't know how bad Trump is, only that it doesn't horrify me to the same level as others with different political leanings and/or belief systems. A lot of Republicans I know voted for Trump as a giant middle finger to the Republican party more than anything. They aren't surprised or disappointed in his performance (except maybe on trade).

btw ... I was a lifelong Elway fan and wore the jersey every Sunday (even before they finally won the Super Bowl) and stopped after the details of his affairs came out. Doesn't mean I thought he should lose his position or be shamed out of the NFL, but I found it distasteful enough to give up on the Broncos. I also haven't watched an Eagles game since the day they signed Vick (I own pit bull rescues). I'm not imposing my judgment on anyone, but that kind of stuff pushes my buttons enough to make me change my allegiance. I'm not arguing whether that's right or wrong, only admitting to the kind of criteria that matter to me.

Chad
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

@Jenny
I see the point you are trying to make. The big difference is that Clinton's problem/affair may impact decisions, but Trump's problem/decisions do impact actual current issues. This is why, while I agree I'm definitely emotional with Trump, I still see more logic in my position even with the red haze of anger obfuscating my view and making me error more in my analysis than in the past.

It does confound me a little why Trump doesn't press your buttons considering his misogynistic tendencies and strong support for various strongly misogynistic countries. Admittedly, some of them have had past support (Saudis) from our gov't, but some have been oddly verbally supported (Duterte) and wouldn't have been from previous administrations.

I used Elway because I consider him the greatest QB of all time. Though, that has nothing really to do with the example.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 6851
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

Trump does push my button over the misogyny thing. I find him repugnant in that regard (most regards, really). And unfortunately yes, most US presidents/candidates support SA because of Iran which annoys me to no end. But as usual, I only had two choices so I picked the one closer to my position on issues important to me. I'm disappointed in Trump's performance, but I'm hopeful it will scare both political parties straight.

IlliniDave
Posts: 3845
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave »

Chad wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:35 am
@IlliniDave
Yeah, I don't think everything is going to crash and burn right away because of Trump. It just appears that Trump took office when a small part of Rome was burning and then decided to light more of it on fire instead of fighting the existing fire or at least just keeping the existing fire contained.
I don't even pay that much attention to Trump, it's what's going on in the government around him, especially the unelected part, that I think is interesting. As far as Trump goes, his biggest problem might be that he stoops to the level of his opponents/critics, something that's pretty "unpresedential" even when the opposition/criticism is a bit more civilized, and that is now cemented as his persona. I'm sort of surprised people who don't like his political agenda aren't pleased with this. My prediction now is that he will succeed at nothing legislation-wise, and anything he does by EO can be quickly undone by the next president. If he'd have "cleaned up good" once in the WH he could have gotten a lot done that would have been difficult to undo.

Locked