Obtaining a Second Passport

[Seppia]

Any opinions on the Italian referendum?

The situation of Italian politics is bad, and obtaining unbiased information is close to impossible.
Keep in mind I will vote yes, but I am not a super convinced Yes voter.

The premise is that the current Italian system makes it close to impossible to do real reforms.
I don't know if it's the system or what else, but the fact is that aside for very, very little, nothing meaningful has changed in Italy in the last 20 years.
The only real reform that was passed was the pension reform, needed for sustainability (retirement age has been increased and payouts generally decreased. Italy has zero demographic growth FYI).

To simplify greatly:
Today we have two chambers, the Camera and the Senato.
Any law that needs to be passed has to be approved by both chambers, with the exact same text.
Any time the government did not have majority in both chambers, all that was needed to create gridlock was to simply change a bit the wording of a law, and send it back to the other chamber.
This was a lot more frequent than foreigners might think, because in Italy we do not have two big parties, but a multitude of smaller ones that usually unite in two coalitions.
Backstabbing is rampant, and the other very negative side effect is that a small party can hold ransom a government very easily.
Imagine coalition A has 55% of the votes of one chamber
One small 6% party in coalition A can stop any law by simply voting with coalition B on that particular subject.

This referendum proposes to greatly diminish the power of one of two chambers (the Senato), thus speeding up the process.

Proponents of the Yes camp say that the advantages are:
- governability of the Country by making law-making easier and faster, thus allowing reforms
- lower the cost of the government (the Senato would have less people with less salary)

The proponents of the No camp say:
- the risk is an authoritarian derive. The two chambers exist precisely to avoid concentrating too much power in one's hands.
- the reform is badly put toghether.

On top of this, the Prime Minister Renzi has basically made this a referendum on his popularity, so a lot of the No supporters see this as a way to send him home (the term coined was "Renxit") and not much more.

My point of view is:

- I'm sure the reform is badly written, I mean it has been done by Italians.
- at least we are heading in the right direction though, all those who claim it's badly written have been in power for a number of years and could have written a better one themselves.
- I see zero risk of Fascism coming back or anything similar. At least it would not be triggered by this reform. I don't believe authoritarian regimes are created by forms of government. Hitler was elected after all, and other authoritarian regimes usually TOOK power with force, regardless of forms of government.

What ultimately swung me though was the list of who is supporting the No side
- Berlusconi
- D'Alema and other old farts from the old school left coalition, people so bad as politicians they managed to lose to Berlusconi repeatedly
- The 5 star movement, possibly the most ridiculous political party on earth (its run by a comedian and among them there's believers that vaccines cause autism, that regular passenger planes spray chemicals in a master plan to control the weather, etc)
- the Northern League, who has feasted on racism for decades (they wanted to separate the wealthy north from the south up until a few years ago, now they've directed their anger towards anything non Italian).

Hope this helps.

[Ego]

What ultimately swung me though was the list of who is supporting the No side
- Berlusconi
- D'Alema and other old farts from the old school left coalition, people so bad as politicians they managed to lose to Berlusconi repeatedly
- The 5 star movement, possibly the most ridiculous political party on earth (its run by a comedian and among them there's believers that vaccines cause autism, that regular passenger planes spray chemicals in a master plan to control the weather, etc)
- the Northern League, who has feasted on racism for decades (they wanted to separate the wealthy north from the south up until a few years ago, now they've directed their anger towards anything non Italian).

Hope this helps.

Seppia, Thank You! Absolutely perfect timing as it has to be in the mail today.

I voted yes - thanks to you! The Berlusconi - 5star comment pushed me over the edge. Over the weekend I did a little research and got lost reading articles about Beppo Grillo. What a strange world we live in.

[BRUTE]

on a scale of 1 to Trump, where's Beppo Grillo?

[Seppia]

I guess it really depends how one views Trump.
I'm in the "with the candidacy of Hillary, the USA population would probably have elected even a screaming monkey instead of her" camp.
Obviously tons of hindsight on my part.
I don't have a very high esteem of the Donald.
I probably have an even lower esteem of Grillo

[Ego]

Back when I started researching for the citizenship project I began to slowly enter my ancestry information into familysearch.org, the free Mormon genealogical information resource. Today I logged into one of their sister projects, the BYU Virtual Pedigree Roots project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-mujv1LEyU

Virtual Pedigree pulls data from all of the genealogies ever created in familysearch.org and fills in the blanks. Apparently another user who is my distant relative had researched waaaaaay back because as of today I am now able to see generation to generation through my Grandmother's side to American Colonists and Knights and Dukes and Fridleif II King of Denmark and Kings of England and Saint Joseph of Arimathaea (who is believed to have buried Christ) and eventually way back 114 generations to..... get this.... Adam and Eve.

[Chad]

Did the user find out where the Garden of Eden was located? Wouldn't be bad investment as a tourist trap.

Based on extensive genealogy trees I have heard about, there appears to never have been peasants, slaves, indentured servants, people just living on some small farm somewhere, maids, etc. It appears 99% of the population in the US is descended from nobility in Europe.

I also never really understood the fascination with who your great great great grandfather was. It has zero bearing on the value you are in your life.

[Ego]

Chad, the funniest part is that my grandmother's people where all extremely modest (in every sense) coal miners. Modest. Hard to believe, I know. Most of the lines dried up four generations back but this one just kept going and going and going.

The non-Mormon people I know who are obsessed with it seem to be, like me, childless. I suspect there is a morbid fascination with the idea that, at least with this line, it all ends here. But I am sure there is more to it than that. The Denial of Death I posted in the other thread has got to have something to do with it.

[Chad]

Those modest people are probably part of the reason you are ERE.

The interest could definitely be related to childless, last in line, denial of death , etc. This is just one of those interests that strikes me as odd.

[fiby41]

One could also convert to Judaism or prove Jewish ancestry (a Jewish grandparent would suffice) to acquire Israeli citizenship.

I thought you need atleast your mother ('s side) to be a Jew in order to claim Jewish ancestry.

[halfmoon]

Back when I started researching for the citizenship project I began to slowly enter my ancestry information into familysearch.org, the free Mormon genealogical information resource. Today I logged into one of their sister projects, the BYU Virtual Pedigree Roots project.

I have no urge to research my ancestors, but I would worry in any case about entering ancestry information into any website that isn't password-protected (maybe these are?). The first question any financial institution asks to verify your identity is your mother's maiden name, and a lot of security questions also revolve around ancestors (grandmother's first name, for example). Of course, you can always lie...but you have to remember your lies.

[chenda]

Got my Irish citizenship certificate today, which helpfully included a passport application. Never thought I'd have to do this but #fuckbrexit

[Ego]

@Chenda.... congratulations! Any details on the process you'd like to share?

@halfmoon, agreed. Good point. Familysearch is password protected and the info on living people and their relationships is not accessible to others.

[chenda]

@Ego thanks! Basically if a parent or grandparent was born on the island of Ireland you are entitled to Irish citizenship. If it's a parent you can apply for a passport directly, if, as in my case, it's a grandparent you have to first register your birth as a foreign birth. You need to send original copies of relevant birth certificates, but it's a pretty straightforward process.

[BRUTE]

congrats. options are good.

[elegant]

One could also convert to Judaism or prove Jewish ancestry (a Jewish grandparent would suffice) to acquire Israeli citizenship.

I thought you need atleast your mother ('s side) to be a Jew in order to claim Jewish ancestry.

That is indeed the case according to Jewish law. But Israeli law extends the "right of return" even to people who are not considered Jewish under Jewish Law. As long as you have a Jewish grandparent, a clean criminal record, and a serious intention to live in Israel, you're generally eligible for citizenship, even if your mother isn't Jewish.

Case in point - about 1 million people immigrated over here from the former USSR in the early 1990s. Many of them are not Jewish according to Jewish law.

[fiby41]

@elegant, ya and about 50,000 of those who converted, their conversion was cancelled and they were deported.

[jacob]

Anyone worried about "what could possibly go wrong" with these dual citizenship arrangements?

Examples:

* Ending up in a situation that requires diplomatic intervention and having each country trying to wash its hands saying it's the responsibility of the other country? (hostage situation, sea wreck, ...)
* Getting drafted or otherwise fined for not providing some public responsibility (jury duty, conscription, ... )
* Having to show up regularly in the country (not just the embassy) to "keep your papers in order".
* Having either country turn isolationist and making up some law stating that they will henceforth only allow one citizenship and the hastily written law stipulates that the default is whatever one obtained last.
* Countries abandoning dual taxation treaties making you now effectively pay full tax in two countries.
* Regretting your choice but now finding yourself owing a substantial exit-tax.

While I haven't detected anything eminent, I have seen some op-eds from nationalist politicians about getting rid of the dual option, "because terrorists". Duals comprise a fairly small minority and the majority in a modern democracy doesn't tend to think twice before minorities get thrown under the bus.

[Did]

@jacob I guess it depends on the country. I'm working towards my Irish citizenship. The benefits would far outway any sort of risk. And I'm confident that should anything sort of silly happen I could just let my Irish citizenship go any remain an Aussie.

What is it someone said once, if the worst does happen I will just find myself a job like the rest of you.....

[Ego]

Anyone worried about "what could possibly go wrong" with these dual citizenship arrangements?

Examples:

* Ending up in a situation that requires diplomatic intervention and having each country trying to wash its hands saying it's the responsibility of the other country? (hostage situation, sea wreck, ...)

As of now, the US does not "officially" know that we hold citizenship with Italy. It could theoretically be an issue if we were to, say, enter Iran on Italian passports for the purposes of a cycle tour, then have problems because of our US passports. It has happened.

* Getting drafted or otherwise fined for not providing some public responsibility (jury duty, conscription, ... )

This is a common problem for young Israelis. We're too old for conscription and jury duty is excused if you are out of the country. Definitely should be a consideration for young people.

* Having to show up regularly in the country (not just the embassy) to "keep your papers in order".

One of the things I've learned from my Mexican connections is that if someone encounters a problem like this then someone else has figured out a workaround and offer it to others for a fee. There are few problems that a Limited Power of Attorney and a few dollars cannot solve from afar.

* Having either country turn isolationist and making up some law stating that they will henceforth only allow one citizenship and the hastily written law stipulates that the default is whatever one obtained last.

Mexico didn't allow dual citizenship for a while. Back then a family member wanted to inherit property in Mexico so they had to officially renounce US citizenship to do so. Right after the transactions completed, they reapplied for US citizenship. Sounds crazy but is not uncommon.

Regarding last-obtained citizenship being the one that sticks.... I have a friend (super gringa, güera, zero Spanish) who fell in love with a Mexican-American guy. They got married and learned after the fact that there was an issue with his citizenship. This is not unusual with those who were brought across as kids. INS told them he would have to leave the country and re-apply for citizenship after several years. So, super-Gringa moved to Tijuana with hubby and crossed the border each morning for work. They had kids and began to see the advantages of living in TJ. Better schools, albeit private. Everything is way less expensive. True bi-national kids. The whole shebang. Then his case came up for review with INS and he was granted a green-card, which meant that they had no choice but to live in the US. Suddenly that prospect was not as attractive as it once was and they were sad about what they'd be loosing.

Force me to live in Italy and I will carve out a good life there. Force me to live in Mexico and I will somehow do the same. Force me to live in Chicago and.... eh... I'll try my best and probably succeed. It's a skill we've been practicing for years.

* Countries abandoning dual taxation treaties making you now effectively pay full tax in two countries.

Always possible. Strategic renunciation. Change investments or income sources to minimize the consequences, or find a loophole. As the world gets more interdependent, there are more people who would be affected. Big fish are usually motivated to keep this from happening but if it does, they are motivated to find ways around it. If possible, follow their example.

* Regretting your choice but now finding yourself owing a substantial exit-tax.

Don't over commit to the new place in the form of property or transfers of wealth.

While I haven't detected anything eminent, I have seen some op-eds from nationalist politicians about getting rid of the dual option, "because terrorists". Duals comprise a fairly small minority and the majority in a modern democracy doesn't tend to think twice before minorities get thrown under the bus.

Also possible. Renounce the less useful of the two?

[Ego]

Update: As mentioned above, Italian law granted their bureaucracy 730 days (2 years) to process citizenship applications. The law said that if the application is not declined within that time then it is automatically approved. Strange but true. But then the refugee crisis began in Southern Europe. The citizenship offices was overwhelmed. The government responded with a new law that took effect back in September on the 730th of Mrs. Ego's application. To the day. It doubled the time limitation from 2 years to 4 years. It also added a requirement for Italian language certification. Fortunately the language requirement was for new applications only.