Hello everyone,
I have question regarding jobs before ERE.
I'm currently in the following situation:
- I'm at my second job (first one = IT Developer in old company, this one = IT Developer in new company)
- I don't like programming anymore.
- The only reason I don't experience burnout, is because of my steady progress towards ERE.
- My goal is to become self-employed, whenever my side-bussiness allows it.
- I don't think I can keep doing this IT job any longer, not even with ERE in mind...
Regarding that last point, if you're not the least bit interested in your job, it becomes hard to stay focused.
An added downside to IT development is that the technology regarding computers and programming languages, evolves too fast. That in turn means, that you need to constantly study to keep up with it. Pure madness it is.
And that studying sucks away your free time, your evenings, your week-ends. And that free time could be better spend to working towards ERE.
So my question is the following:
What could be a good next career step (switch), in order to get another job between now and ERE.
And do you have any ideas as to how to find something that I would at least like enough to keep it longer than 2 year? I fear that anything that's not self-employment would make me feel the same way after a while...
Intermediate job search
Consider QA Guy / "Test Engineer"
As a former developer, you will be way overqualified, which means you can slack like crazy and still keep your job. Put in the bare minimum*, and focus on your side projects and business.
Your salary will only be 75% of what it used to be, but you'll be making 2x-5x what you used to per hour of effort.
* the bare minimum for a former dev in a 40hr/week QA role is probably around 35hrs/week in the office, and 15hrs/week of that actually working. The rest of your office time you can spend on your personal life and setting yourself up for the side-business. (Don't do actual startup dev work from the office, but Google around and do all the research, etc.)
I think the three best ERE accumulation strategies are:
1) A job you love and would do for free, this is the first choice if you can find it. Only you know what this job would be.
2) Bust your ass in a role where you can be compensated for busting your ass. There are two of these: self-employment and finance.
3) Coast. And QA is the ultimate coast job for a former developer. That or working in a technical role for the government or a government sponsored lab.
As a former developer, you will be way overqualified, which means you can slack like crazy and still keep your job. Put in the bare minimum*, and focus on your side projects and business.
Your salary will only be 75% of what it used to be, but you'll be making 2x-5x what you used to per hour of effort.
* the bare minimum for a former dev in a 40hr/week QA role is probably around 35hrs/week in the office, and 15hrs/week of that actually working. The rest of your office time you can spend on your personal life and setting yourself up for the side-business. (Don't do actual startup dev work from the office, but Google around and do all the research, etc.)
I think the three best ERE accumulation strategies are:
1) A job you love and would do for free, this is the first choice if you can find it. Only you know what this job would be.
2) Bust your ass in a role where you can be compensated for busting your ass. There are two of these: self-employment and finance.
3) Coast. And QA is the ultimate coast job for a former developer. That or working in a technical role for the government or a government sponsored lab.
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George the original one
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My take:
If you're only 2 years away from ERE, then I would plug on unless you can find a position that pays as well (or better) and that you enjoy.
If you were 4+ years away, then seeking an alternative makes sense even if it slows down the plan a bit.
****
What would be a good alternative? IT Sales is a natural fit, but you have to be people-oriented. IT Support is also a natural fit, but the studying can be just as intensive as for a programmer (less in-depth, but more topics). IT Management... but you have to fake the dedication
Otherwise, unless you have a leg up on another career that interests you, you'd have to go back to square one and get more training. For example, if your IT work is in the medical field, then it's possible to find a bridge (the leg up) to research or interacting with patients.
*******
Dang, I forgot about QA work...
If you're only 2 years away from ERE, then I would plug on unless you can find a position that pays as well (or better) and that you enjoy.
If you were 4+ years away, then seeking an alternative makes sense even if it slows down the plan a bit.
****
What would be a good alternative? IT Sales is a natural fit, but you have to be people-oriented. IT Support is also a natural fit, but the studying can be just as intensive as for a programmer (less in-depth, but more topics). IT Management... but you have to fake the dedication
Otherwise, unless you have a leg up on another career that interests you, you'd have to go back to square one and get more training. For example, if your IT work is in the medical field, then it's possible to find a bridge (the leg up) to research or interacting with patients.
*******
Dang, I forgot about QA work...
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George the original one
- Posts: 5406
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
Ah, Nagerusu, my reply might be US-centric. I'm a developer who has worked closely with QA in the past, and have been surprised by how good they have it.
My last company had a very difficult time finding people with enough technical skills to do QA work, but the willingness to do QA instead of doing development. So the people in QA had it very good.
@George good point about sales, I should have included sales in my list of roles where you can be compensated for working hard.
PS: If my current finance path fails, I'm falling back on QA...
My last company had a very difficult time finding people with enough technical skills to do QA work, but the willingness to do QA instead of doing development. So the people in QA had it very good.
@George good point about sales, I should have included sales in my list of roles where you can be compensated for working hard.
PS: If my current finance path fails, I'm falling back on QA...
I agree with akratic's QA recommendation. It's not a job you take home with you or stress over. No long term planning or significant skills needed to keep up with. Maybe a few testing tools... but trivial compared to a fast paced dev environment, especially if you're not trying to climb up into dev 
I might estimate closer to a 50% pay cut though - unless you are a pretty junior developer. But that might be worth it. I've considered it - thinking it could be easier to find part time work.... 50% pay rate, 3 day work week = 30% of my salary. Still well over my ERE spend targets.
I feel for you though... it's a tough business as you start to lose interest. Once you reach a point where you no longer have the level of desire necessary to read up or try new things outside of work, then it's only a matter of time. Some jobs you can drone on for years in - but at any decent dev company, you're going to get trampled in dev. I'm in that boat with you, and wish you luck!
I might estimate closer to a 50% pay cut though - unless you are a pretty junior developer. But that might be worth it. I've considered it - thinking it could be easier to find part time work.... 50% pay rate, 3 day work week = 30% of my salary. Still well over my ERE spend targets.
I feel for you though... it's a tough business as you start to lose interest. Once you reach a point where you no longer have the level of desire necessary to read up or try new things outside of work, then it's only a matter of time. Some jobs you can drone on for years in - but at any decent dev company, you're going to get trampled in dev. I'm in that boat with you, and wish you luck!
@chilly: Thanks and if you're really in the same boat, than I wish you good luck too!
@bigato: If I went into self-employment, it wouldn't be in the IT-sector, so I would be working much more and yet it wouldn't feel like work.
Squeezing the numbers is what I'm trying to do all the time, so perhaps I will get there sooner... it all depends a bit on how my investments are doing. So far, so good, but you never know...
But you make a very good point: waiting longer for freedom in another career versus staying in IT and finding out that it's all the same corporate misery.
That last one is what I fear and what kept me in this job so far. But who's to say it won't be the same if you switch careers? Unless it's a career you like, but to me that seems to point me in the direction of self-employment, which is (finance wise) not yet possible at the moment.
@bigato: If I went into self-employment, it wouldn't be in the IT-sector, so I would be working much more and yet it wouldn't feel like work.
Squeezing the numbers is what I'm trying to do all the time, so perhaps I will get there sooner... it all depends a bit on how my investments are doing. So far, so good, but you never know...
But you make a very good point: waiting longer for freedom in another career versus staying in IT and finding out that it's all the same corporate misery.
That last one is what I fear and what kept me in this job so far. But who's to say it won't be the same if you switch careers? Unless it's a career you like, but to me that seems to point me in the direction of self-employment, which is (finance wise) not yet possible at the moment.
@bigato: I want to be a full time investor/swing trader. It's a hobby that became a passion for me.
You have no boss, you have no clients, it's all about strategy and patience. And luckily, I'm a very patient man.
And I have the added possibility to make and sell home-made mead (honeywine) as an extra income. Which would also fall into the non-service like products you describe. I totally agree with you there.
With squeezing the numbers, the first thing I think about, would be spending less. But apart from saving $500 per year on martial arts, I'm already very close to my lowest point I think.
And I don't want to drop the martial arts, because they improve my health and they improve me in general. I follow the rule that you shouldn't cut back on stuff that makes you better as a person.
But once you reach your highest savings, there's 2 things you can do to reach your ERE goals faster:
1. check again and realize you are wrong (this isn't your highest savings rate)
2. increase your income (preferably the passive one)
I always try to do number 1, but I'm starting to focus more on number 2 now.
You have no boss, you have no clients, it's all about strategy and patience. And luckily, I'm a very patient man.
And I have the added possibility to make and sell home-made mead (honeywine) as an extra income. Which would also fall into the non-service like products you describe. I totally agree with you there.
With squeezing the numbers, the first thing I think about, would be spending less. But apart from saving $500 per year on martial arts, I'm already very close to my lowest point I think.
And I don't want to drop the martial arts, because they improve my health and they improve me in general. I follow the rule that you shouldn't cut back on stuff that makes you better as a person.
But once you reach your highest savings, there's 2 things you can do to reach your ERE goals faster:
1. check again and realize you are wrong (this isn't your highest savings rate)
2. increase your income (preferably the passive one)
I always try to do number 1, but I'm starting to focus more on number 2 now.
@Nagerusu
I feel for you, man. I had the same burnout/hate/indifference with the accounting profession. It was all I could do to get out of bed in the morning. I'm now 2 career changes past that. First one was my passion (coaching college football), but it paid terrible and you basically work 7 days a week for 9 months. My second one is halfway between a job I dislike and a job I love, but it pays decent and gives a lot of flexibility.
One option for you would be to find a small company that isn't an IT firm and be their IT guy. The small management/security consulting company (30 or so people) I work for has one IT guy who doesn't seem to do a ton. Basically, fix laptops and keep the server up and running, and maybe answer a few stupid IT questions from the older consultants.
Your hobby choice might require you to have an extra cash cushin. Even good traders get slammed sometimes.
I feel for you, man. I had the same burnout/hate/indifference with the accounting profession. It was all I could do to get out of bed in the morning. I'm now 2 career changes past that. First one was my passion (coaching college football), but it paid terrible and you basically work 7 days a week for 9 months. My second one is halfway between a job I dislike and a job I love, but it pays decent and gives a lot of flexibility.
One option for you would be to find a small company that isn't an IT firm and be their IT guy. The small management/security consulting company (30 or so people) I work for has one IT guy who doesn't seem to do a ton. Basically, fix laptops and keep the server up and running, and maybe answer a few stupid IT questions from the older consultants.
Your hobby choice might require you to have an extra cash cushin. Even good traders get slammed sometimes.
@Nagerusu - I'm in a very similar position. I burned out of my computer engineering job about a year ago, and finally quit last week. I did take a similar job in another state, which accomplished 2 things:
1. They paid for the move, which allowed me to make significant changes to my spending, therefore lowering my minimum expenditure floor.
2. Start fresh. I expect things will be good for awhile, but after 2 years I will be burned out again. I'm hopeful that's not the case because everyone has assured me the culture in the new location is much better, but we'll see.
After 2 years, if I have enough for ERE I will take that. If not, I've already started researching how I could get contract work in this field where I could make some side money while my assets grow, and freeing up enough time to spend on ERE skills, and potentially growing a side business I already have saved up.
Have you considered contracting part time in the IT field? As you get close to your ERE crossover point in savings, that might become an option.
1. They paid for the move, which allowed me to make significant changes to my spending, therefore lowering my minimum expenditure floor.
2. Start fresh. I expect things will be good for awhile, but after 2 years I will be burned out again. I'm hopeful that's not the case because everyone has assured me the culture in the new location is much better, but we'll see.
After 2 years, if I have enough for ERE I will take that. If not, I've already started researching how I could get contract work in this field where I could make some side money while my assets grow, and freeing up enough time to spend on ERE skills, and potentially growing a side business I already have saved up.
Have you considered contracting part time in the IT field? As you get close to your ERE crossover point in savings, that might become an option.
whoa...just about everyone here is in IT ( and tired of it)? count me in. doesn't this hint at an inherent issue with the whole IT industry wrt employee satisfaction? (I'm not saying this because of the responses here..of course it is expected..dissatisfaction wrt work is what mostly draws people to an ERE forum and IT guys are way more likely to comment in this particular IT related discussion..yadda yadda.)
But what I'm trying to suggest is the possibility of there being something 'special' about this field such that there is 'burnout' written all over it...or so it seems to me. I just can't seem to put it exactly into perspective though, especially due to my very limited understanding of how other industries work. BTW..I'm one of those people that tried to make things better by hopping from one job to another to finally realize what everyone who's job-hopped eventually realizes ( yes..the banal realization they're all the same). With my third employer now (worked as a contractor for 2 others as well), all of them very successful megacorps ( my 'skills' or lack of it rather, owing to the very narrow focus of my work until now makes me unfit for working in start-ups or self-employment in the IT sector, so never bother trying either option)..and my experience has invariably been the same with each one of the megacorps.
Bigato makes an excellent point about the whole of IT really being one big service industry. That's not the way it is generally seen..the accepted definition is that there are product companies and then there are service companies. This may be a fair distinction from a very macro-perspective, but when it comes to the micro-picture..its all service really. You really do not ever-ever complete anything.as in a finished 'product'...it's all one never-ending ongoing cycle..build after build..patch after patch...release after release.
As for the QA line of thought...my 2 cents:
I've been doing QA jobs for well over 5 years now...and like I'd mentioned, I've an understanding of only megacorps (startups are of-course a different thing altogether).
So, from my perspective, I couldn't agree more with what akratic has said. QA really has it easy ( from a complexity-of-job perspective). The work is really unbelievably easy to understand most of the time...the pay is not bad at all (in relation to skills), there is very rarely any drastic change requiring complete re-learning etc. And yes, a smart dev guy transitioning to QA will surely find it easy to complete some QA tasks in 1/10th the time an average QA guy would take, leveraging his superior automation skills etc. That was the bright side, now onto the other side:
QA work (manual testing) is most of the time EXCRUCIATINGLY boring, and THANKLESS.
It is in my opinion the mother of all grunt-work, ranking second only to 'literally digging up and filling holes', which task is, I believe, only a myth,which elevates QA to the number one spot.
Back to the good part: The best part of it is that most of the time is spent pointlessly waiting for something..to complete..to happen..to be delivered..to be fixed. And even when you're working busily, most tasks just require 20% of your full mental capacity ( and 100% of your patience)..thus leaving you with a lot of bandwidth for doing just about anything else in your head ( from composing music to thinking up new investment strategies, the latter being what I almost always do).
Thus I'd say,a perfect QA-fit is someone with near-infinite patience, who doesn't derive much meaning from his work, can do really useful things in his head-of much value to his personal growth while waiting for whatever it is a QA guy always waits for ( or doesn't mind just 'drifting'). So, yes, it's not all good for QA, but for the right kind of person,it could be one big party.
I used to be a good QA-fit,but lately I'm running very low on patience..and that's really a problem if your typical day at work involves 'quality' work...and don't even get me started about the meetings ( a problem with any job and in my personal opinion an INTP's worst nightmare..outside of appraisal discussions)
I'm writing this after a lennnghty day at work..so maybe it shows..
Post-ERE, I would like to spend my time researching for/managing my equity investments and also there's film-making (don't know if that one will ever happen)
that was lengthy..
But what I'm trying to suggest is the possibility of there being something 'special' about this field such that there is 'burnout' written all over it...or so it seems to me. I just can't seem to put it exactly into perspective though, especially due to my very limited understanding of how other industries work. BTW..I'm one of those people that tried to make things better by hopping from one job to another to finally realize what everyone who's job-hopped eventually realizes ( yes..the banal realization they're all the same). With my third employer now (worked as a contractor for 2 others as well), all of them very successful megacorps ( my 'skills' or lack of it rather, owing to the very narrow focus of my work until now makes me unfit for working in start-ups or self-employment in the IT sector, so never bother trying either option)..and my experience has invariably been the same with each one of the megacorps.
Bigato makes an excellent point about the whole of IT really being one big service industry. That's not the way it is generally seen..the accepted definition is that there are product companies and then there are service companies. This may be a fair distinction from a very macro-perspective, but when it comes to the micro-picture..its all service really. You really do not ever-ever complete anything.as in a finished 'product'...it's all one never-ending ongoing cycle..build after build..patch after patch...release after release.
As for the QA line of thought...my 2 cents:
I've been doing QA jobs for well over 5 years now...and like I'd mentioned, I've an understanding of only megacorps (startups are of-course a different thing altogether).
So, from my perspective, I couldn't agree more with what akratic has said. QA really has it easy ( from a complexity-of-job perspective). The work is really unbelievably easy to understand most of the time...the pay is not bad at all (in relation to skills), there is very rarely any drastic change requiring complete re-learning etc. And yes, a smart dev guy transitioning to QA will surely find it easy to complete some QA tasks in 1/10th the time an average QA guy would take, leveraging his superior automation skills etc. That was the bright side, now onto the other side:
QA work (manual testing) is most of the time EXCRUCIATINGLY boring, and THANKLESS.
It is in my opinion the mother of all grunt-work, ranking second only to 'literally digging up and filling holes', which task is, I believe, only a myth,which elevates QA to the number one spot.
Back to the good part: The best part of it is that most of the time is spent pointlessly waiting for something..to complete..to happen..to be delivered..to be fixed. And even when you're working busily, most tasks just require 20% of your full mental capacity ( and 100% of your patience)..thus leaving you with a lot of bandwidth for doing just about anything else in your head ( from composing music to thinking up new investment strategies, the latter being what I almost always do).
Thus I'd say,a perfect QA-fit is someone with near-infinite patience, who doesn't derive much meaning from his work, can do really useful things in his head-of much value to his personal growth while waiting for whatever it is a QA guy always waits for ( or doesn't mind just 'drifting'). So, yes, it's not all good for QA, but for the right kind of person,it could be one big party.
I used to be a good QA-fit,but lately I'm running very low on patience..and that's really a problem if your typical day at work involves 'quality' work...and don't even get me started about the meetings ( a problem with any job and in my personal opinion an INTP's worst nightmare..outside of appraisal discussions)
I'm writing this after a lennnghty day at work..so maybe it shows..
Post-ERE, I would like to spend my time researching for/managing my equity investments and also there's film-making (don't know if that one will ever happen)
that was lengthy..
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jacob
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How to design a field for a high probability of burn-out.
1) Recruitment is based on talent, generalized skills within the field, and the sales copy speaks of how it all fits into the big picture.
2) The work itself is ultimately very specialized and it is not at all clear how it fits into the big picture or whether it is at all important.
3) The career pyramid is up or out.
4) To get to the next step, you always have to work harder, not smarter. The reason is that you're as smart as you can get and so is all your competitors.
5) At some point you realize that that it's neither smarter nor harder, but politics that ultimately decide---what worked well the past 10-15 years (brains and heart) no longer seems to work.
In short, you liked and maybe even still like the field, but you got burned out on the implementation.
1) Recruitment is based on talent, generalized skills within the field, and the sales copy speaks of how it all fits into the big picture.
2) The work itself is ultimately very specialized and it is not at all clear how it fits into the big picture or whether it is at all important.
3) The career pyramid is up or out.
4) To get to the next step, you always have to work harder, not smarter. The reason is that you're as smart as you can get and so is all your competitors.
5) At some point you realize that that it's neither smarter nor harder, but politics that ultimately decide---what worked well the past 10-15 years (brains and heart) no longer seems to work.
In short, you liked and maybe even still like the field, but you got burned out on the implementation.
I just got a job as a web developer at a university. I have not yet started the job. I am hoping it has a few differences from being a web developer at a for-profit institution.
I worked for a start-up-like place for a while. Not a real start-up but more like a think-tank or start-up within a big boring company. Our boss was a former university professor. Our work environment was like "let's see what we can do". We played with all the fun, shiny new things. We invented things. We were super creative. Our meetings were all about discussing how to solve problems. It was fun until the whole shiny object syndrome started to get annoying.
I worked at a large, profitable, well-known software company in the marketing department. I was basically on an assembly line. It was so boring and the meetings were so completely inane. I absolutely hate marketing speak. Free trial doesn't mean free. Cranking out landing pages is boring and no mandatory happy hours or paint ball outings can make up for that.
I worked at a rinky-dink shady operation. My boss actually said that all work we did should be alpha quality or less. Don't waste your time making things that work perfectly. All they cared about was cashing checks from customers. They didn't care about delivering what the customers bought. The database was a disaster. My paycheck bounced often.
I am hoping a university job will be different. They will pay me with good checks, of that I am sure. If they run out of money, they'll just furlough me which saves me from having to quit to get some time off. Universities tend not to be on the cutting edge so there shouldn't be so much shiny object syndrome. Universities tend to like people who like learning. I like learning. It's about the only thing about the IT industry that I do like. I just don't like the pace of learning required to stay on the bleeding edge. So coupled with the fact that universities aren't usually on the bleeding edge, that should work out well. Also, universities aren't all about making money and nothing else. They have to care about making things usable for the disabled. I will be providing a service to real people with real needs that often do not get met. I can actually in some tiny way make the world a better place.
We'll see what it's really like, though.
I worked for a start-up-like place for a while. Not a real start-up but more like a think-tank or start-up within a big boring company. Our boss was a former university professor. Our work environment was like "let's see what we can do". We played with all the fun, shiny new things. We invented things. We were super creative. Our meetings were all about discussing how to solve problems. It was fun until the whole shiny object syndrome started to get annoying.
I worked at a large, profitable, well-known software company in the marketing department. I was basically on an assembly line. It was so boring and the meetings were so completely inane. I absolutely hate marketing speak. Free trial doesn't mean free. Cranking out landing pages is boring and no mandatory happy hours or paint ball outings can make up for that.
I worked at a rinky-dink shady operation. My boss actually said that all work we did should be alpha quality or less. Don't waste your time making things that work perfectly. All they cared about was cashing checks from customers. They didn't care about delivering what the customers bought. The database was a disaster. My paycheck bounced often.
I am hoping a university job will be different. They will pay me with good checks, of that I am sure. If they run out of money, they'll just furlough me which saves me from having to quit to get some time off. Universities tend not to be on the cutting edge so there shouldn't be so much shiny object syndrome. Universities tend to like people who like learning. I like learning. It's about the only thing about the IT industry that I do like. I just don't like the pace of learning required to stay on the bleeding edge. So coupled with the fact that universities aren't usually on the bleeding edge, that should work out well. Also, universities aren't all about making money and nothing else. They have to care about making things usable for the disabled. I will be providing a service to real people with real needs that often do not get met. I can actually in some tiny way make the world a better place.
We'll see what it's really like, though.
@bigato: Oh, a colleague martial artist ^^ I do Aikibudo, which is a Japanese martial art combination of 3 styles: daito-ryu aiki jiu-jitsu (historical ma), yoseikan aikido (more modern ma) and katori shinto ryu (oldest sword school of Japan)
and I also do Doce Pares Eskrima (fillipino martial art with sticks and knifes).
It does indeed keep us sane
I've also done 7 years of Hwalmoo Hapkido before I switched to aikibudo.
@jacob: True, I burnt out on the implementation. But a lot of implementations are brn-out material in the corporate world. Again something that makes self-employment so attractive to me, then you can create your own implementation.
@piper: Even schools and universities are about the money though. All the principals I have had, drove a fancy car... both in secondary school and in college. But they do need to pay more attention to e.g. making things usable for the disabled. It's good that you focus on the good parts.
I can actually in some tiny way make the world a better place.
See the movie Evan Almighty: "How do you change the world? One act of random kindness at a time..." and also the chinese saying: "One grain of rice can tip the bowl."
and I also do Doce Pares Eskrima (fillipino martial art with sticks and knifes).
It does indeed keep us sane
I've also done 7 years of Hwalmoo Hapkido before I switched to aikibudo.
@jacob: True, I burnt out on the implementation. But a lot of implementations are brn-out material in the corporate world. Again something that makes self-employment so attractive to me, then you can create your own implementation.
@piper: Even schools and universities are about the money though. All the principals I have had, drove a fancy car... both in secondary school and in college. But they do need to pay more attention to e.g. making things usable for the disabled. It's good that you focus on the good parts.
I can actually in some tiny way make the world a better place.
See the movie Evan Almighty: "How do you change the world? One act of random kindness at a time..." and also the chinese saying: "One grain of rice can tip the bowl."