Climate Change!

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
Gilberto de Piento
Posts: 1942
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:23 pm

Re: Climate Change!

Post by Gilberto de Piento »

I'm not worried about the Earth being destroyed. Earth has survived countless asteroid impacts and 5 major extinction events. It's humans that I'm worried about. Regardless if you believe in AGW or not, there is no denying that we are slowly but surely poisoning ourselves with the amount of pollutants we keep pumping out. I'd like clean energy because I love fresh air and smog free skies. I want less mercury in the ocean and beaches that don't coat your toes in petroleum if you sink your feet into the sand. I want to walk into a forest and not see plastic bags floating on trees or smell excrement on the tide because the waste facility was overwhelmed with flash flooding and had to dump raw sewage into the ocean. I'm sure there are lots of financial interests that want to see the AGW money wagon pick up speed. But you don't have to believe in AGW to see the worldwide distress that we as humans are inflicting on ourselves and other species. We don't need AGW as a reason to reduce emissions of every kind.
Well said.

ducknalddon
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Re: Climate Change!

Post by ducknalddon »

steveo73 wrote: Go read this thread. I've given a tonne of facts. This argument doesn't cut it anymore. It's actually pretty one sided. I get political arguments against what I state.
I've read the whole thread, all I've seen you post are vague assertions, links to dodgy Youtube videos and calling people alarmists.
The evidence that you state is not one sided and you need to start recognising the complexity of the issue. When that starts happening it will be a lot lot easier to discuss the topic because we will be on a firmer footing. The over the top confidence that AGW is proven and we are heading towards the Earth being destroyed is nonsense.
Nobody in this thread said the Earth is going to be destroyed.

cmonkey
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Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:56 am

Re: Climate Change!

Post by cmonkey »

Gilberto de Piento wrote:
I'm not worried about the Earth being destroyed. Earth has survived countless asteroid impacts and 5 major extinction events. It's humans that I'm worried about. Regardless if you believe in AGW or not, there is no denying that we are slowly but surely poisoning ourselves with the amount of pollutants we keep pumping out. I'd like clean energy because I love fresh air and smog free skies. I want less mercury in the ocean and beaches that don't coat your toes in petroleum if you sink your feet into the sand. I want to walk into a forest and not see plastic bags floating on trees or smell excrement on the tide because the waste facility was overwhelmed with flash flooding and had to dump raw sewage into the ocean. I'm sure there are lots of financial interests that want to see the AGW money wagon pick up speed. But you don't have to believe in AGW to see the worldwide distress that we as humans are inflicting on ourselves and other species. We don't need AGW as a reason to reduce emissions of every kind.
Well said.
+1 I am not concerned about the Earth at all for all the stated reasons.

What we are doing to the planet is bad for the ecosystem, but the worst of it will hit human systems. The dam situation in California is a good example. It's terrible for us, but just an inconvenience for nature. How this all affects you personally depends on how (in)dependent you are on human systems (financial, physical and emotional).

Gilberto de Piento
Posts: 1942
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:23 pm

Re: Climate Change!

Post by Gilberto de Piento »

One thing that isn't considered in the view above is that plants and animals are currently undergoing another major extinction, one which is caused by humans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction.

We can argue that the geology of the earth isn't particularly damaged by people and will recover when we are gone but these species are going extinct, never to return. There is no recovery from extinction. Even if a person doesn't care about plants and animals it's important to consider that when these species go extinct they take with them any uses that we could obtain from their genetic material such as cures for diseases.

steveo73
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Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: Climate Change!

Post by steveo73 »

[quote="ducknalddon

You really need to read this thread again. People believe that we are doing damage to the Earth and putting humankind and I assume other animals at risk. Go watch and read a bunch of the links that I provided. Go and educate yourself on the topic.

Anyone who is a AGW climate change alarmist has no understanding of the current state of the science of this topic. It's easy to rectify that by reading through a bunch of the links that I provided. If you still feel uneducated let me know and I will help you understand the topic a lot better.

steveo73
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Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: Climate Change!

Post by steveo73 »

[quote="Campitor

Relax. Stop buying into the theory that humans are somehow bad. We aren't.

I personally also believe in other environmental issues such as not polluting our local environments but there isn't a massive problem here. If you are though an environmentalist like myself I think you should realise that the local issues tend to occur in poorer locations. The best way to help these locations is to ensure that they get the chance to economically progress. This is a really good reason why we need to stop all this AGW crap. We want the poorer countries to develop. As countries develop they tend to care more about their local environments.
Last edited by steveo73 on Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change!

Post by steveo73 »

Gilberto de Piento wrote:One thing that isn't considered in the view above is that plants and animals are currently undergoing another major extinction, one which is caused by humans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction.

We can argue that the geology of the earth isn't particularly damaged by people and will recover when we are gone but these species are going extinct, never to return. There is no recovery from extinction. Even if a person doesn't care about plants and animals it's important to consider that when these species go extinct they take with them any uses that we could obtain from their genetic material such as cures for diseases.
Yep. Like they have in the past and they will in the future. It's called nature.

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C40
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Re: Climate Change!

Post by C40 »

I think I might start a drinking game:

One drink each whenever Steveo says:
~~'If your opinion is different than mine, you're wrong/have no understanding/etc.'
~~ Watch the Youtube videos I linked
~~ Reread the things I linked to until you agree

And Two drinks for any new thread participant who tries to convince Steveo

Ontarian
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Contact:

Re: Climate Change!

Post by Ontarian »

HA! Great idea C40! Back to my lurking...

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Climate Change!

Post by Kriegsspiel »

:lol: top notch.

Gilberto de Piento
Posts: 1942
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:23 pm

Re: Climate Change!

Post by Gilberto de Piento »

How about when he:
- Cites a Dr. so and so that no one has ever heard of and only Ted Cruz takes seriously?
- Says anecdotal evidence doesn't count because we should be using the scientific method but then refuses to use science himself?
- Links to a blogspot site that says we shouldn't worry about climate change but should buy gold because of the Bilderberg Group?

I could use a drink right about now. Steveo, how about this Australian heat wave? It's getting awfully hot down there. Might that be global warming?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... s-expected

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change!

Post by steveo73 »

Gilberto de Piento wrote:How about when he:
- Cites a Dr. so and so that no one has ever heard of and only Ted Cruz takes seriously?
- Says anecdotal evidence doesn't count because we should be using the scientific method but then refuses to use science himself?
- Links to a blogspot site that says we shouldn't worry about climate change but should buy gold because of the Bilderberg Group?

I could use a drink right about now. Steveo, how about this Australian heat wave? It's getting awfully hot down there. Might that be global warming?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... s-expected
Pretty funny. So we are back to the ad-hominem attacks. I get it - when the facts don't fit your beliefs just resort to the good old ad-hominem argument. Top stuff fellas. The good thing about the scientific method is that all of this stuff sort of disappears if we are being honest. I suggest you re-read the thread and try and provide me with proof of AGW and to be more specific alarmist AGW. A simple one would be to articulate why the models are running hot and the predictions aren't working out. If you put this into simple terms - the observed data (even though it is poor) is not conforming to the theory. If this was any other subject that ends the discussion. Try to make it a good source even though that isn't available.

I'll give a hint - it's basically impossible to prove alarmist AGW. There isn't good enough data and the science is a long long long way from being clear enough to state that there is an issue. I think you could state that AGW is occurring but the effect appears to be mild and not something to concern yourself with at this time.

I said earlier that only someone with no idea at all would state that a hot Australian summer is due to global warming. It has nothing at all to do with global warming.

Interestingly I spoke to my brother yesterday. He is a lawyer and he said that all the drama regarding emissions trading that was at one point big is now fading away completely. So thank god that we are slowly moving away from the anecdotal evidence supporting AGW that is so prevalent within this thread.

Mind you if you come to Australia I'm happy to shout a beer or 20.

Gilberto de Piento
Posts: 1942
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:23 pm

Re: Climate Change!

Post by Gilberto de Piento »

Mind you if you come to Australia I'm happy to shout a beer or 20.
If I was in Australia I'd be happy to buy you a beer too, and, you know what, we'd probably end up arguing about this stuff but it wouldn't be so bad and we'd end up friends. At least that's how it usually goes for me.

BRUTE
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Re: Climate Change!

Post by BRUTE »

Gilberto de Piento wrote:Steveo, how about this Australian heat wave? It's getting awfully hot down there. Might that be global warming?
Gilberto de Piento seems to be confusing climate with weather..

Aurane
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Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:51 am

Re: Climate Change!

Post by Aurane »

I found this neat little site which represents some different data (temp., Arctic ice sea volume, CO2 levels) in spirals. Seems like a great way to represent the data.
http://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/spirals/

---
My lecturer (he is part of a Ice and Climate group) in Thermodynamics here at the university gave us all an informal talk about the Arctic sea ice levels, and how they are changing drastically now (we saw plenty of data, including satellite photos). I wish everyone were there to see it as well.. to summarise, there is a very high probability that this year, or within the next few years that the north pole will become completely ice free (first time in 100'000 years). This removes the 'buffer' the ice sea provides against temperature rise during the summer around the north pole.. without this ice, the temperature in the Arctic will not be mitigated by the sea ice, so it is quite probable that Greenland's ice sheet will start melting to a greater degree.. and since this ice is from land, it will increase the sea levels. It doesn't look good.

ducknalddon
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Re: Climate Change!

Post by ducknalddon »

C40 wrote:And Two drinks for any new thread participant who tries to convince Steveo
Duty calls.

Gilberto de Piento
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Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:23 pm

Re: Climate Change!

Post by Gilberto de Piento »

Gilberto de Piento seems to be confusing climate with weather..
No, I'm just baiting steveo. ;)

That said, the day to day weather makes up the climate. If the day to day weather changes enough, the climate has changed. For example, the time to plant early season garden crops is changing in the upper midwest. One year we get a few days that seem unusually warm in the spring. The next year we get a few more. This year we have more February days that seem unusually warm than days that are typical of winter. If this happens every year our climate has changed.

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change!

Post by steveo73 »

[quote="Aurane

These predictions have been happening so often and they have one thing that makes them completely consistent - they never come true. Come back in 5 years time and my prediction is that there will be more ice in the world than what there is today. If not 5 years then there will be in 15 or 20 years. I guarantee that your gloom and doom won't come true.

This is where AGW alarmism is failing dismally.

The world isn't anywhere near as fragile as what AGW alarmists want to make out. The piddly tiny little bits of CO2 that we are putting into the atmosphere are not going to have anywhere near the effect that what the alarmists want to make out. I got this figure from an alarmist so it's probably massively overstated - "By mass, this extra CO2 is only about 0.0008 percent of the Earth’s total air."

Campitor
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Re: Climate Change!

Post by Campitor »

[quote="steveo73

I am relaxed and I don't believe humans are bad - you're ascribing to me traits not in evidence. The pollution I've seen and experienced has occurred in the USA in some of the richest states. I don't think humans are malevolent on the whole but I do believe a majority are not good at weighing the long term consequences of certain actions which then cascade into negative outcomes for humans. And I think the argument that holding poorer countries to certain emissions is a red herring. I think a developing country can build better infrastructure using cleaner energy sources without greatly impacting their growth; I think the "let them pollute so they can catch up quickly" is a lazy and shortsighted argument. As the twig is bent so grows the tree - in other words - if your growth is structured around dirty energy, your infrastructure will continue to grow in that direction until negative outcomes are experienced which will be more costly to control or clean up, or at worst causes military tensions with your neighboring countries.

George the original one
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Re: Climate Change!

Post by George the original one »

steveo73 wrote:Come back in 5 years time and my prediction is that there will be more ice in the world than what there is today.
You do realize that the Russians are banking on your prediction being false. They're set to claim the last great untapped oil reserve under the Arctic sea, something they can't do unless the Artic ocean remains ice free. Considering the summer sea trade that has opened up due to the ever shrinking Arctic sea ice, you're very much on the wrong side of this bet.

Military plans & training are already being made by northern nations with the expectation of an Arctic ocean free of ice.

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