Men's rights movement - opinions

[7Wannabe5]

Stahlmann said: And how can men avoid 70% of women? Maybe I lack perspective as men.

http://pleated-jeans.com/2015/08/05/if- ... shion-ads/

SilverElephant said: The female equivalent of "virgin neckbeard men who live in parents' basement" isn't "virgin neckbeard women who live in parents' basement". What you describe is basically "unmanly man", so what we're looking for is "non-female female". This will, in all likelihood, and as harsh and politically incorrect as it sounds, simply mean ugly girls. Or girls that act in thoroughly un-female-like fashion, i.e. they completely fail to trigger circuits that signal "female" in a guy's brain.

A lot of this is due to behaviors that can be learned and unlearned. For instance, one mistake females often make in this regard is to flirt in a manner that might be described as "monkey pokes the tiger with a stick." The same/opposite mistake that males make might be described as "kid gloves and butterfly kisses." The reason why these types of mistakes are so common is that it is natural for humans to semi-consciously model the behavior they want from another person. The fact that women are often turned on by masculine/dominant behavior is sometimes misinterpreted as being attracted to "jerks", but it's not that. It's just that what women particularly crave in relationship with a man isn't something they can get from a relationship with a female friend. For instance, I like it when I try to get out of bed in the middle of the night and my sleeping BF unconsciously locks his muscular arm around me so that I can't get out. So, I can empathize that maybe it would be his preference that I didn't chew tobacco and spit it on the sidewalk.

Also, it's no use hoping for a woman who isn't crazy to want you, because there is no universe in which holding the desire for somebody to pin your azz down and f*ck your brains out is consistent with sanity.

[Riggerjack]

Well, herein lies the problem. Why do you support this ruthless system? ,,Just at next corner, you will find love of your life!; Just man up!". I think it's the ultimate proof of gynocentric society: you are being rated as the man or not... The joke is that women decide about it

Every system is ruthless. Anyone who says differently is selling you something. (RUS's? I don't think they exist.)

I'm 46 and married, looking forward to retiring soon. I am almost completely removed from the game. If you are looking for my support, you are doomed to frustration, I'm afraid.

If you want sympathy, I just don't have any. Life is tough. Waiting for the world to arrange itself to your convenience seems an awful waste, but do as you like.

Now that may seem harsh, and unhelpful, but that is not my intent. I am trying to help you understand that this is under your control. Men have it so much easier in the sexual arena than women.

Yes, you are expected to put forth more effort, more money, etc than an equally attractive woman. Sucks, huh? But more to the point, as a man, there are many options you have to improve your attractiveness, that women just don't have.

Say you a born a natural 3 on a scale from 1-10. As a woman, you can work out, and develop your body, improve your posture, spend way too much effort on makeup and shoes. But these are all passive. Your options to actively attract the man you want are limited. Best case scenario, you can work your way up to a 6.

But a man, what you are born with has far less to do with your attractiveness. Building confidence, best done by doing a bit of everything, especially anything that scares you, takes you from a 3 to a 6 by itself. Spend some time in a gym, learn to dance, make some money, the possibilities are only limited by you.

BTW, I knew a guy in the service, couldn't dance at all. Til one of the girls showed him that all he had to do was go on the floor, tap his toe, snap his fingers, and let her dance all over him. And he Looked Damned Good, doing it. She wasn't with him, she was making a point. Which was good, he did just fine that night.

I won't encourage you to try lowering your standards. Hell, for every beautiful woman out there, there's a guy tired of her BS. So go get your hottie. And when you get that out of your system, I would encourage you to shoot higher, not lower. And someday, you will realize that the beauty queens are not worth the BS, and start to find other features more important. If you are stuck on finding your perfect 10, you will fuck up every relationship until then, so start there. Save yourself and any potential girls a lot of pain.

But if you think you can whine your way into her panties, you better look like a young Brad Pitt. The rest of us had to do some work, you can too.

[SilverElephant]

@ Stahlmann

I do agree with your premise that there is an overly developed sense of entitlement among women as to what they "deserve" and "won't settler for". As far as I can see this is in part because of the MSM spreading a specific image of what romance, courtship and marriage should be like. So I'm with you there.

The thing is, though, that just because a large segment of the population adheres to that delusion does not mean you have to, too. Much like spending your money on consumer goods and complaining about not getting ahead is optional, so is chasing hot ditzy girls who think they deserve a prince.

Obviously it can be frustrating as a young guy to be seemingly priced out of the dating market. But you're really not, much like not spending your paycheck on junk while spending it on cash-producing assets is actually a long-time investment. People will shake their head or laugh at you. In time, you might come out on top. See mine and Riggerjack's comments about age working in your favor.

[7Wannabe5]

Riggerjack said: Yes, you are expected to put forth more effort, more money, etc than an equally attractive woman. Sucks, huh? But more to the point, as a man, there are many options you have to improve your attractiveness, that women just don't have.

Say you a born a natural 3 on a scale from 1-10. As a woman, you can work out, and develop your body, improve your posture, spend way too much effort on makeup and shoes. But these are all passive. Your options to actively attract the man you want are limited. Best case scenario, you can work your way up to a 6.

I definitely do not wish to detract from your point that men largely make their own luck in this realm, but women also have options beyond the purely passive, especially if they aren't primarily interested in "pretty, pretty Princess" validation. My perspective is something like post-feminist-neo-primitive, so I believe that all humans will benefit from personal growth and expression of both masculine and feminine energy in a variety of realms, but that sexual/romantic current will run strongest when you purposefully choose to evince strong polarity in the moment or context of particular relationship. So, any female who would maybe be rated a 7 when captured in still photography, who has read a couple books written on such topics as charm, sexual dichotomy theory or the arts of the geisha with open mind, will likely do better in the dating market than a woman who would maybe rate a passive 8.5, but does not know how to signal availability, semi-consciously engages in pursuit and/or persists in antagonistic filtering.

The key piece of advice that I tried to instill in my DD25 and any of her friends who would listen was "ONLY
take men at their literal word." The reason why this piece of advice is key is that it is a distillation of an associated behavior set that will signal that you respect somebody and do not wish to inhibit their freedom, and it reflexively offers you the same benefit in your masculine energy. The equally strong polar complement to a behavior set that signals respect is a behavior set that signals that you cherish your partner. Since the subconscious critical battle between any two people hoping to relate in their polar energies generally gridlocks in something like "I can't/won't respect you because you don't/won't cherish me" and vice-versa, it is important to learn that the best way out is to work on your own level of self-respect or self-cherishing. Same holds especially true if you are feeling out-of-sorts with the entire population you find attractive.

Anyways, that is sexual dichotomy theory in a nutshell. In my experience, it works. However, my personal situation at this moment in time is that I have recently suffered a number of failures in my masculine energy (business/projects), and I have once again put on the same stupid 20 lbs due to self-indulgent foodie-ism and I am severely grouchy due to impending menopause, so not exactly glowing with self-cherishment, YET I am also sunk in a pit of guilt because I am self-identifying as "shameless heartbreaker" due to the continuing fall-out of my poly-amorous practice. So, I kind of just want to run away to Brazil and make a fresh start. So, grain of salt...etc. etc.

[Scott 2]

Find the person you enjoy being, then find someone who shares those values.

Appearance, for the most part, will be an emergent attribute. Maybe the person who is into fashion and triathlons is"hotter", but if you hate shopping and exercise, they're also a dumb choice.

A lot of the "make yourself better" advice in this thread centers on becoming a person who conforms to media driven beauty ideals, so you can be with a person that also values conformation with those ideals. Technically that is a form is shared values, but if it's not the lifestyle you prefer, is going to be an unsatisfying ride, long term.

IMO the problem arises when the other person is a scored prize to be won. They're already both objectified and on a pedestal. Add on performance to win them, and of course that leads to a problematic relationship. It mirrors many of the traps we see in consumerism.

[steveo73]

Find the person you enjoy being, then find someone who shares those values.

Appearance, for the most part, will be an emergent attribute. Maybe the person who is into fashion and triathlons is"hotter", but if you hate shopping and exercise, they're also a dumb choice.

A lot of the "make yourself better" advice in this thread centers on becoming a person who conforms to media driven beauty ideals, so you can be with a person that also values conformation with those ideals. Technically that is a form is shared values, but if it's not the lifestyle you prefer, is going to be an unsatisfying ride, long term.

IMO the problem arises when the other person is a scored prize to be won. They're already both objectified and on a pedestal. Add on performance to win them, and of course that leads to a problematic relationship. It mirrors many of the traps we see in consumerism.

This is spot on.

One point of difference that I have with some of the earlier threads is that a good looking woman is somehow different to an average looking woman. I don't believe this at all. A person's looks do not make that person better or worse or different compared to anyone else.

[Riggerjack]

IMO the problem arises when the other person is a scored prize to be won. They're already both objectified and on a pedestal. Add on performance to win them, and of course that leads to a problematic relationship. It mirrors many of the traps we see in consumerism.

That is my point. If he's hung up on getting the trophy girlfriend, he should absolutely do that. Until he does, it'll screw up any relationship he gets into. After a few trophies, it becomes clear to all but the most insecure men that trophies are intolerable for more than a weekend, and too much work for the limited time they are tolerable. Only after that is someone who is at the trophy hunter stage of maturity going to start to develop into someone useful to a woman worth the effort.

I know I had to learn alot the hard way. This is just one of many lessons to be learned to develop into the kind of man who can get the woman he wants, and not worry about competition, or cheating, or fair, or who has it better.

[7Wannabe5]

Riggerjack said: After a few trophies, it becomes clear to all but the most insecure men that trophies are intolerable for more than a weekend, and too much work for the limited time they are tolerable.

I would first note for the record that there are many very attractive women who are also quite tolerable personality-wise. I have been good friends with a few female 9s or 10s, and sometimes they just have to behave in a standoffish manner because so many men oppress them with instant devotion.

Also, it is often the case that men either value the chase more than the "prize' or semi-consciously wish to be spared the possibility of ever "scoring." The myth of the unattainable female often serves as a good excuse for true preference for solitude and/or confirmation of righteousness of sour temperament. I have personally had the experience of being informed by a lover that he liked being seen in public with me because "it makes the other b*tches jealous." IOW, his desire to avenge past wrongs was greater than his appreciation of his current situation. OTOH, my polyamorous married lover told me that he wanted to introduce me to his wife, so she could see that he didn't love me for my looks, and I didn't appreciate that very much either Maybe menopause will damp down my sex drive enough that I can finally be free to spend my days in grumpy dumpy solitude, minding my own pumpkins and occasionally muttering "Eh, all they want is a nurse or a purse."

[steveo73]

Riggerjack said: After a few trophies, it becomes clear to all but the most insecure men that trophies are intolerable for more than a weekend, and too much work for the limited time they are tolerable.

I would first note for the record that there are many very attractive women who are also quite tolerable personality-wise. I have been good friends with a few female 9s or 10s, and sometimes they just have to behave in a standoffish manner because so many men oppress them with instant devotion.

My wife is good looking. She is frugal, cooks and cleans, takes care of the kids and is basically a good person. I definitely don't consider her a trophy. Her looks are just the way she looks.

[C40]

IMO the problem arises when the other person is a scored prize to be won.

After a few trophies, it becomes clear to all but the most insecure men that trophies are intolerable for more than a weekend, and too much work for the limited time they are tolerable.

I would first note for the record that there are many very attractive women who are also quite tolerable personality-wise. I have been good friends with a few female 9s or 10s, and sometimes they just have to behave in a standoffish manner because so many men oppress them with instant devotion.

In the current context, I'd consider "trophy" to mean:
A woman who is (compared to the man) better looking, AND who considers herself a prize to be won.

It's the latter part that makes them intolerable. There could definitely be some of the standoffish you describe seeming like the intolerableness Riggerjack is describing, but I think you two are talking about two separate things.

[7Wannabe5]

C40 said: In the current context, I'd consider "trophy" to mean:
A woman who is (compared to the man) better looking, AND who considers herself a prize to be won.

Maybe, but females doing some level of filtering towards sexual selection is a pretty primitive process. For instance, I am a pretty die-hard minimalist, but my suitors always bring me presents. I have been told by more than one man that I am much less demanding than most women, so it's like they are behaving in alignment with their perception of overall market dynamics or prior experiences with other women, rather than what I am actually communicating. Like if you put some garden produce out on a table with a "pay what you think is fair" sign on a jar.

My BF gave me a designer handbag for Xmas, and said "I know you are either going to love it or hate it. " I gave him a used book and a used chainsaw. I have mixed feelings about the bag, because it is very well-made and sturdy, but I fear that it might increase my odds of being mugged in my neighborhood. My sister recently noted that a large proportion of my small collection of durable goods such as my bicycle, my cart, my winter boots, my good wool coat and my simple gold hoop earrings were given to me by some swain, current or former. On one occasion, after I refused to allow him to transfer funds to me by backing my bets on horse-races while in his company, a very affluent former lover insisted on covering my dental co-pay. Somebody, likely one of my recent poly-amours, just sent me a t-shirt that says " I ransack public libraries, and find them full of sunk treasure. - Virginia Woolf" with an unsigned note enclosed "to a lovely, wonderful person" which, I must admit, was an effective move towards recovering himself in my good graces.

Anyways, the point I am attempting to make with this rather rambling personal anecdote is that I am in agreement with the OP at the level of noting that the dating/mating/marriage market is going through a period of transition that is often confusing or frustrating for many of its participants. My current position in the market is such that my rational response should be to become more demanding, but I don't even know what to demand. Marriage? More presents? 6-Pack abs? Sexual performance? That men bow down and kiss my hand before they open the car door for me? Since my appearance is pretty much in alignment with what you would get if you found a grubby Cabbage Patch doll in a thrift store and drew some wrinkles on its forehead and stuffed a sock in its shirt, I share the OP's perception that for some combination of reasons, either economic, cultural or demographic, the market is currently favoring females.

[Riggerjack]

I believe in evolution, not just in species, but in personalities. Early in life, most of us haven't varied much from our high school niche.

When I refer to a trophy, I mean the cheerleader/mall rat, who has now discovered that cheerleading really isn't such a great career path. Quite specifically I am not talking about the hot celloist in AP biology, now picking which law school to attend.

Leverage what you have to get what you want, if only to find out that what you have been told you want, isn't what you really want.

If physical beauty is his hang up, he should go for some of that, if only because he should get a good grip on how little that is worth in a relationship. And, since in his own words, he is not a man that women flock to (yet); he shouldn't be shooting for the whole package, yet.

If he did stumble onto hot, sweet, funny and smart, how would he attract her? How would he keep her? How would he not spend every day jealous of every man who smiled at her? How would he not make his life and hers miserable, and not spend the rest of his pining for her?

Happy relationships are made between people who appreciate each other, and feel lucky to have found such a partner. Part of being that partner is going out, facing rejection, learning to reject others, finding out what you like, and what you don't, finding out how to fuck up a relationship, and how not to. None of those happens in mom's basement, and all of them involve making mistakes.

He's looking for a date, not forever. Hell, he's still caught up in Fair, like there is a singles version of the Recess Lady to appeal to.

My advice is simple:

Everything about life is unfair, if you allow it.

Go get some experience. Develop yourself. Fixing weaknesses builds more confidence than building on your strengths. As a man, confidence will change your relationships with both men and women.

There is no need to push out you chest and try to be alpha. That is just a whole other can of BS, mainly geared to appealing to older displaced cheerleaders, and weak boys.

You need to find you. Part of that is going out to try a little of everything, to see what is not you. That sounds like self help book BS, but seriously, how else would you go about it?

[Stahlmann]

...

[Scott 2]

My point is not the person who has been rated a 10 is intolerable.

My point is the act of rating someone a 10, placing them on a pedestal, then performing to win them, creates a dysfunctional relationship. Yeah, the 10 has to participate, but it's pretty impossible to normalize the scenario created by the suitor. The kind response is to reject the attention, but the temptation to use the other person often wins. Early on, the 10 might not even understand what is happening.

Someone caught up in the pattern, on either side, is going to have a tough experience in relationships.

[Stahlmann]

...

[Scott 2]

I think the investment from the woman's side is missed. They are likely spending more on that first date, it's just not as direct. They pay a premium for clothes, hair, beauty products, even physical safety. They also have a more limited duration of high market value, making the opportunity cost of each date higher.

IMO the divorce "bias" is a natural extension of how society values a young woman compared to a middle aged woman with kids. The woman has provided her highest value years and has a reasonable expectation of return.

I personally have not observed the work place discrimination against men. Maybe it's because I am in male dominated fields, but it's quite the opposite. My observation has been equality often means women are hired into supporting roles. The rare male that goes into the same fields, is quickly elevated to leadership positions. This is slowly improving on both counts, because addressing it provides a business advantage. That improvement does mean men might be held to a higher standard than previously, but I do not see it as discrimination.

An assertive man is confident, an assertive woman is difficult to work with. This subjects the women to higher objective standards, since they cannot just get loud to have their way. When I run meetings, I make a point to ensure less assertive participants can provide their highly valuable input. I'll openly compliment contributions and demonstrate they are equal to loud or bossy peers. Over time this creates confidence in the less assertive team members, builds loyalty, and leads to a more productive group. Both genders share in the benefit of the culture shift. It does take something from the loud guy with dumb or average ideas, but he's been getting a disproportionate share relative to his contributions anyway.

[SilverElephant]

Alright Stahlmann, you're right: back on topic.

I do believe "the system" and "people" to be pro-women and biased against men. However, most men I've known to have real trouble with this - in the sense that they ended up having actual emotional distress, legal issues or similar - have been men who have issues with women in general. They pick unsuitable wives, they put themselves in dangerous situations with women at work, they grovel in front of emotionally unstable women who aren't in sync with their sexuality and will use them and then claim rape. I am exaggerating to make a point. I am also aware there are highly abusive and damaged men, but the topic here was bias against men.

The guys who are in control and at ease with women mostly don't have these issues because they end up, consciously and unconsciously, with decent women. There are divorces where both parties come to an agreement without breaking any dishes and without one party being raked over the coals.

In my eyes it's a little like financial savvy/ERE/FI. There's a clear bias against employees/consumers because this is where the money is at, them making up the largest segment of the population. So the system is set up to screw them and siphon off their money, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to break free by simply not participating in stupid shit and making smart choices. That doesn't mean you'll be safe from everything all the time.

Another source of trouble here is, I believe, is the fact that humans suck at grey. They want black and white, in the sense that the general sentiment will either be that men are dangerous predators and women are fragile creatures to be protected, leading to crazy stuff like guidelines for men not to be alone in a room with a woman (as circulated at my university and some big employers) because of the possibility for her to claim sexual harassment, or the sentiment that women are generally inferior creatures that should not be allowed their own bank accounts. We started at the latter and went right on to the former.

In addition, I'm fairly certain that the current men vs. women "war" is a clear-cut case of divide et impera. Nothing like egging your citizens on to feel disenfranchised and wage ideological war on each other to keep them from considering more important issues, i.e. how come most rich people don't pay income tax but I do? It's certainly what I'd do.

[C40]

I use short sentences just to convey messages.
I am totally dissatisfied with direction the topic went.
To this moment nobody has responded to fundamental problems stated in the topic.

Yeah, you didn’t get a ‘He-Man woman haters’ team going like you hoped?

What kind of credentials do you expect me to have to end this debate over my sexual fulfillment?
I gave some info about me because I know that sooner or later there will be ,,you are ugly"-argument.
Unfortunately whole discussion focused on ,,just be better and have sex, mate".
Very sad and disgusting.

For me it's ultimate proof of gynocentrism. Whatever I do, the problem is that I am not getting laid. Are you serious, my fellow ERE friends?

You are talking about how hard YOU have it for dating, how you are not getting laid, and how unfair it is using extremely one-sided arguments. People are responding to you personally because you keep talking about how hard you personally have it. If you want a discussion about the overall landscape, then talk about the overall landscape (and do it realistically, not just with the kind of ridiculous hyperbole I’ll quote below)

Heh, some kind of venting, but it happens when women don't flock to you
I don't want to change world, but at least prostitution should be legalised (in that way I can not be beaten by pimp etc.).

You sound entitled. Women don’t just come flocking to you, so there must be some conspiracy?

And again, as I’ve asked you before: What do you want? If you want a he-man woman hater thread, that is totally possible here. You’re just doing a really bad job of guiding the thread there. You’re presenting your arguments in one-sided and absurd ways.

Can I find nice girl? No, Tinder has inflated her ego, that I need to be like sport model.

Is “nice” really what you’re looking for? Come on, really?

times are rougher than ever for men.

Totally absurd. There were periods of time in regions where men outnumbered women like 100 to 1. Yes really. Imagine trying to get a woman then. Imagine trying to get a woman in Polygamous societies where a rich man gets ten wives and the other 9 men get manual labor jobs and masturbation.

The man is the person who kneels down in front of the woman. This is real oppression.

Ridiculous

Do you really want to be treated as meat dildo for them? I don't want to.

What are you even talking about? What is a meat dildo? I think I may want to be treated like that.

Maybe I lack perspective as men. For me it's women who have been receiving free pass in life and been validated since junior high-school. It shows how gynocentric our society is

You do.

Finally, it's woman who receives free lunch...And man is rated as not attractice enough. Nice.

Do you understand how much women feel they have to spend on their appearance just to look normal? (It’s often way more than men have to spend on dating.)

The problem is women set so high standards that there is no entry for many men. There are no ,,virgin neckbeard women who live in parents' basement”.

Every single part of “virgin neckbeard women who live in parents' basement” can be fixed. For women, there is much. There is ugly, resting bitch face, cottage cheese legs (cellulite), flat chested, pear shaped, apple shaped, banana shaped (every shape except “hourglass” is the wrong one). A virgin neckbeard can shave and find one vulnerable slutty girl and he’s 2/3 of the way there. That can be done in two days. Banana to hourglass takes over a year and in many cases is completely impossible.

Well, I don't care. I want to present in this topic that men are discriminated nowadays more than women before 70’s

….

Hey, hey! How about whole dating is pedestalization of women (needs')?
Who is responsible for: asking out, planning and paying?
I am not bitter. I just want point there are many guys who can not join the fun bus.

Asking women out can be easy. Dating can be completely free. There are threads about that on this forum. But you’re not interested in learning that are you?

(though with the current hold that consumer culture has on dating it does take quite a bit of effort or even a sort of negotiation or tightrope walking. It totally depends on the girl though. You date a consumerist girl, she expect spendy dates. You date a girl that’s not a consumerist, she’ll be happy to meet you at the park or the library.)


My Point here:
My point is - the reason people aren't agreeing with you like you'd hope is that you're arguing in an ineffective manner. Get a better understanding of the womens' side of things. Show that you have a balanced, accurate view. Don't just present lopsided complaining.



Onward
Here’s some other OK Cupid data that:
1 - Confirms that a guy your age has the cards stacked against him
2 - Should make you feel better about men your age over the next 20 years: https://stagetwo.wordpress.com/2010/04/ ... on-of-age/



Yeah, women at their peak are considered more attractive than men at their peak. (Other charts I found of the same thing showed less discrepancy in the peak heights). A woman’s peak attractiveness lasts about 5 years. A man’s lasts about 20. That is a huge advantage for men. Guess what, this means that when you’re 47, you can still date a 27 year old woman. That is pretty fucking awesome for men. If you fit the norm on this chart, you’re at only about 20% of peak attractiveness. This is because most guys your age don’t know what the hell they are doing in dating/sex/relationships or have some huge singular weakness (fear of rejection is a common one). I certainly didn't know what I was doing at that age, and it appears you’re similarly confused.





Some more charts for you. Look how absurd men are:


OK, well, I mean the men aren’t entirely wrong. This is aligned with the previous chart above, and younger women do generally look better (though I’d say women look best closer to 25)


Compared to women:

What do these mean for you? It means that every single man, no matter their age, wants to fuck and date that same 20 year old that you do. That’s tough. Who’s fault is it? The 20 year old girl? No, its all those men.

What else does it mean for you? It means that as you get older, your stock gets higher and higher with women. And it NEVER goes down lower than a woman's. Even when you get over 50 and you’re past your peak, you're still more attractive than women your age, now the men are dying off quicker than women, so there are more women for every man left.


Consumerism
I'd say that for guys like us, who are ERE-types, the biggest challenge in dating and relationships is the impact that consumerism has had on them. Some really stupid expectations are now set in place in dating, ones that came from consumerism. Expensive dates, flowers, diamond rings, "romantic getaways" (don't even get me started on how stupid it is to think that it's romantic for people (who don't have kids at home) to go stay in some hotel room)). Now both men and women think these are an important part of relationships. For the men uninterested in spending on these things, a significant portion of women are eliminated as potential mates.

Viewed on it's own, a man's refusal to consumerize dating is absolutely valid and realistic. I mean, flowers and diamond rings mean fuck-all (nothing) about love. The problem is that in the cultural landscape of dating, women spend a bunch of money and time on making themselves look more attractive, and men spend a bunch of money (and time earning it) on dates, rings, etc. That's the current deal. When the man points out how stupid it is to do his side of this, it's not fair within the dating landscape when women are still spending all the time and effort on their appearance.

[7Wannabe5]

Riggerjack said: I believe in evolution, not just in species, but in personalities. Early in life, most of us haven't varied much from our high school niche.

True, but it's also interesting to note how some aspects of identity or temperament do remain fairly consistent. I was the sexy nerd when I was 17, and I will probably still be the sexy nerd when I am 85. Will there still be some 92 year old "smart-for-a-hoodlum" type playing Steppenwolf on his stereo system and inviting me in to smoke a joint of medical marijuana with him or hoisting me up for a wheelchair dry-hump in the Senior Assisted Living Plaza? I can't say for sure, but my mid-life experience in the dating arena would veer my prediction towards the affirmative.

@C40: I didn't even realize how uggo I was at the age of 51 (almost 52!) until I looked at your first chart, and I didn't realize that there were no human males over the age of 50 until I looked at your second chart. I don't want to go off on a tangent, so I may need to start a new thread entitled Late Dating Extreme!!! which you may have reason to consult if you find yourself still single or single again when you are over the age of 46

[steveo73]

Why do think if it is necessary to discuss: male suicides, discrimination in workplace, bias in divorce, problem with homelessness, mental aggression from women?

For me it's ultimate proof of gynocentrism. Whatever I do, the problem is that I am not getting laid. Are you serious, my fellow ERE friends?

My opinion is that it isn't about you not being laid. It could be about so many things - for instance getting a good job, being happy etc. All of these things though are within your control to achieve.

Your attitude that you are hard done by is an attitude of entitlement. We all have to look at ourselves and work through who we are and then take actions to improve our lives. To me ERE is a microcosm of that.

Also I think society is basically amazing. You can have such a good life with so little. So modern day society might have these trivial little problems but overall you are so lucky and you can achieve whatever you want in your life.