The Trump Problem (the real one)

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
7Wannabe5
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jennypenny said: Is the 'fix' really that almost everyone should move to urban areas? Is that really best?
Very interesting chart in the article you linked. Of course, my notion of a best "fix" would be more urban-located micro-farmers and more rural-located creative tech micro-firms.

Riggerjack
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Riggerjack »

So, there has been a bunch of bashing if the people who stay in economically depressed areas. Small towns, specifically.

I'm wondering if those that feel this way, feel the same about native Americans, staying on the the reservation, where economic options are often limited.

And if not, why not?

IlliniDave
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by IlliniDave »

jennypenny wrote:Tangentially related article about the divide between rural and urban communities ... http://www.resilience.org/stories/2016- ... in-america

Is the 'fix' really that almost everyone should move to urban areas? Is that really best?
I'm all for it--more peace and solitude in the places I want to live.

BRUTE
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by BRUTE »

Riggerjack wrote:I'm wondering if those that feel this way, feel the same about native Americans, staying on the the reservation, where economic options are often limited.
what way is that? brute wouldn't say he's "bashing" those humans. it's their life and their choice. but if they prefer poverty & living in the past to changing their ways & making more money, they shouldn't be surprised if brute doesn't care much for their poverty problem. doesn't matter if they're native or white trash.

Dragline
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Dragline »

Riggerjack wrote:So, there has been a bunch of bashing if the people who stay in economically depressed areas. Small towns, specifically.

I'm wondering if those that feel this way, feel the same about native Americans, staying on the the reservation, where economic options are often limited.

And if not, why not?
Yes, I do think it's a bad idea that too many of them stay in those places. I don't think tying people to lands has done them much good, except for some special rights in tax free sales and casinos. It was one of those "seemed like a good idea at the time" things that has not panned out.

It's a very good example of the problem, actually. They should be paying their young people to leave and then give/pay them back when they are able.

But this situation is historically more complex from the average American in that they were moved off other lands to designated places.

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Ego
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Ego »

jennypenny wrote: Is the 'fix' really that almost everyone should move to urban areas? Is that really best?
When I say move, what I mean by that is that if there is no way to make money in the place where they are, they need to move to a place where they can make money. They may not need to physically move at all. In fact, I imagine if someone was as skilled at editing as you are, they could do it from almost anywhere. But if they don't have the skills or connections then they have to go out and find them.

I think part of the problem is that many who are suffering are in multi-generational trades (mining, factory work, agriculture, military) where their parents and grandparents worked the job before them. In short, the job came to them. They were born into it. It is more than a job. It is a way of life. When those opportunities dry up, it is more than a job loss. It is like a death.

The bigger problem (I believe) is the inherent cognitive dissonance that causes the rage we see. Trump supporters are the kind of people who believe quite strongly in the up-by-your-bootstraps ethic. They talked the talk for generations, all the while being ensconced in the protective cocoons of their trades. The cocoons have been shed. Here is their opportunity to walk the talk.

This is precisely the reason we induce major change in our lives every few years.

Chad
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Chad »


vezkor
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by vezkor »

It's from a site that is typically a comedy site, but I thought this was particularly well written and relevant to this thread:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-t ... -about_p2/

bryan
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by bryan »

Maybe another real problem is the shift of the 3 branches of government towards the red side of the aisle. This could be a serious issue, granted I don't think it is quite there yet and I'm sure in 2018, 2020 things will shift hard back to the blue side.

Yoinking from another thread:
OTCW wrote:I can't help but think of the parallel of folks buying guns when Obama was elected because they were convinced he was going to outlaw them. We have a balance of power system with three parts that has served us incredibly well. We'll be just fine this time too.
https://twitter.com/marcportermagee/sta ... 4788379648
Democrats now control only 13 state legislatures (26%). If they lose 1 more they fall below the % needed to stop constitutional amendments.
and also the fact that amendment proposals can come straight from the states (66%) and not congress.

Almost being able to amend the constitution without the typical opposition is a pretty big chink in the balance of power armor; especially considering the majority of the voting populace supported one candidate and the opposite party ended up controlling the three branches.

JamesR
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by JamesR »

I wanted to share this. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/yo ... ying-wolf/ big counterpoint to media calling trump a racist.


Feel free to lock this thread too. Politics is probably getting old hat for ERE.. back to more important things ;)

CS
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by CS »

This article found no correlation with economic anxiety and Trump support. It was all racial anxiety.

http://www.vox.com/world/2016/11/9/1357 ... xenophobia

America is never going to be White again (unlike those few hundred years it was stolen from the natives). I frankly love the irony that people under stress have more children: so all the hate piled onto blacks is only going to help grow their population. Go underdogs.

The front row kids thinking was interesting (as one myself, being a the proud owner of several graduate degrees). But I think is group is primed to think the root of support is economics based since that is the focus here.

Europe is rapidly changing from the influx of people, just as America is. The romantic picture of Parians (white of course) eating baguettes while walking through the charming streets during a light Christmas snow is gone. Now it is riots by minorities due to lack of jobs. (Although as recently as the late 1800s, Paris has had bloody massacres amongst it's whites so bad the river Seine ran red. But that is a whole different xenophobia. I digress).

I think there is some biological survival basis to this fear. After all, our ancestors came out of Africa, mated with, killed, and ate (yes ate) the Neanderthals until the Neanderthals were no more. But understanding this issue as such, does not make acting out on these fears more acceptable to most of society today. And realistically, I think the cat is out of the bag on this one, never go back in again. The demographics will not tip back for a whole host of reasons. (Personally, I'm betting on the Chinese being the ultimate take all winner. But we'll never know unless we invent a time machine.)

This survival base motivation has been acknowledged here and there outright: few year ago (decades ago?) Pat Roberts called on women to have more kids. It was understood he meant white Christian women. And just this year a book came out recently entitled "They can't kill us all", a black author writing about activists. He writes about the details, the but title alone shows the awareness of the overall battle being fought here - that for a some this is a zero some game; there is no plurality, only winner (survivor) and loser (extinction).
Last edited by CS on Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dragline
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Dragline »

"I understand the anger Americans feel today. In the past, our presidents have channeled that anger and forged it into resolve, into endurance and high purpose, and into the will to defeat the enemies of freedom. Our anger was transformed into energy directed for good.

Mr. Trump is directing our anger for less than noble purposes. He creates scapegoats of Muslims and Mexican immigrants. He calls for the use of torture. He calls for killing the innocent children and family members of terrorists. He cheers assaults on protesters. He applauds the prospect of twisting the Constitution to limit First Amendment freedom of the press.

This is the very brand of anger that has led other nations into the abyss."

So was Mitt Romney wrong when he said that, or just "brainwashed by the media"?

Ron Paul said something similar just last week after the election about scapegoating immigrants as an excuse for people failing to take personal responsibility. Was he "brainwashed by the media" too?

Or is the "blame the media" propaganda narrative so strong and important that the truth doesn't matter any more?

Welcome to the abyss. Your guides will be Steve "Goebbels" Bannon and Jeff "hey, boy" Sessions. The enemies list will be long but you'll get a free pass so long as you are willing to look the other way when the torture, killings, assaults on protesters and limitations on the First Amendment begin. Just like Mitt Romney predicted.

But its ok. You can just blame the media and pretend nothing is happening. Der Gropenfuhrer gives you permission.

CS
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by CS »

Dragline, was that response directed at me?

I personally can't stand racism or any kind of scapegoating. if your response was to me, then I certainly didn't make that clear enough (although I'm starting to think you were talking about the article claiming Trump is not a racist - a no, he just walks, talks and acts like one... so what exactly is the difference then?)

I do however, enjoying dissecting the irony and futility of the hatefulness these people are exhibiting.

Chad
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Chad »

Bannon's appointment means Trump was very aware of the racists he courted and is still actively courting them, through racism. It also means me giving Trump even indifference is over. Well, it lasted a couple days.

BRUTE
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by BRUTE »

CS wrote:Trump is not a racist - a no, he just walks, talks and acts like one...
how does a racist walk?

as for what he talks, it seemed to brute Trump mostly said things like "I love the blacks" and "mexicans are great workers". sound like compliments to brute.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

CS said: America is never going to be White again (unlike those few hundred years it was stolen from the natives).
Right, and it is never going to be as affluent as it was in 1958 again either. When I was a child, my white-ish (Dumb Polack, but a hot little number) barely high school educated grandmother could afford to divorce her second husband because he wouldn't let her bet on the ponies, get a union job, and buy her own car, house and department store ice cream sundaes made to look like Mickey Mouse for her grand-daughters. Her male "peers" could also buy cottages up North on the lake and power boats. 50 years later, we're all down to having only half that level of affluence plus the internet- Yay smart kids! So, we end up with two candidates in their 70s spouting 2 different varieties of magical thinking about how we can re-achieve that level of affluence, but this time do a better job of sharing.

Anyways, I should note for the record that my current social circle consists of 1/3 city-raised extreme liberals of varied skin tones and genders/orientations, 1/3 rural-raised white men who voted for Trump, and 1/3 recent immigrants from places like Bangladesh and Bosnia. I am currently reading "Modern Capitalism: A Study of Machine Production" by John Hobson, 1902 and re-reading "Survival+: The Primer" by Charles Hugh Smith, and I am absolutely dreading the extent to which I am likely to have to referee the discussion over turkey and tofu-turkey this Thursday.

Dragline
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Dragline »

CS wrote:Dragline, was that response directed at me?
No, at the prior comment and link in particular. I think we were posting at the same time.

As others have said, our principal problems now have to do with indifference and finding "reasons" not to believe what we are seeing happening, principally by claiming that anyone who calls attention to it must be biased and that somehow that bias means that it must not be happening, even though we can see it for ourselves.

As this writer puts it, we currently still have an opportunity to speak out about it. Or not.

"None of this is set in stone. Donald Trump was elected president, not king. I am confident that most Americans want no more of racism, white nationalism, the KKK, or the American Nazi party. But these voices are poised to play a central role in the Trump administration. This can be stopped if people speak out and members of Congress take action. If we are silent, the white nationalists who cheered Trump on and worked to elect him will be vindicated as their champions take a seat at the center of American power."

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/welcom ... 2016-11-19

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jennypenny
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by jennypenny »

Let's suppose I completely agree that people voted for Trump because they are racist. Why do you think this is suddenly an issue? Did 60 million people just wake up this year and realize they are racist? People scapegoat when their backs are against the wall. If they weren't suffering economically, they wouldn't be looking for a scapegoat. We all know that bad times give rise to baser instincts. A normally honest person will gladly steal to feed their hungry child, and in that situation most would empathize.

We should be more concerned -- most concerned -- with how to address the conditions that give rise to this kind of behavior. These people just wanted a piece of the pie that was being distributed from the spoils of globalization, but got none. Added to that, they are expected to give up their homes to move to greener pastures and adjust their religious beliefs to conform to modern standards of equality. All while liberal coasties have given up what exactly? Not much has changed for people in liberal urban areas on our march to automatronic globalization compared to people in so-called heartland communities. I'm not saying those changes can't/shouldn't happen, only that we can't expect the group that received the least to give up the most. They need to feel they are benefiting from the change, too. They should benefit.

But instead of addressing that inequity, people are simply calling them racist to avoid the issue. They wave their degrees around proclaiming how smart they are and that they know what's best for everyone. Is that really the plan? To browbeat people into accepting progressive ideals? Sixty million people voted for Trump, are you going to browbeat all of them? Shame them into submission?

And what's the alternative since that seems unlikely to succeed -- something stronger than browbeating? That won't end well and blue states would do well to look at a map before brazenly tempting the fates. Coasties are separated by 3000 miles of heartland -- heartland containing most food production, natural resources, military resources, and defendable terrain. This isn't North vs. South and the results would be different this time. The only way to resolve this is through diplomacy. That wasn't going to happen while the wealthier people in blue states continued to reap all the financial benefits of globalization while dictating to people in red states. Hence Trump.

It's really the left's call how this will go. Are they willing to come to the table, or are they just going to cling to the belief that all 60 million of us are racists and misogynists and dismiss our concerns? They do the latter at their own peril. This isn't about who wins elections anymore.

------------

I have over 4000 posts to show my position on almost every subject matter. I've hidden nothing and there's plenty to judge me by, yet people still want to proclaim Trump supporters are racists and misogynists. Do you think I'm an outlier? Maybe everyone does consider me a racist and misogynist. Or just stupid. Whatever it is, realize I'm the type of person who's tried to straddle the fence and take political differences in stride who now feels forced to choose a side by the vitriol and rhetoric.

Well, I've chosen. And where does that get us?

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Dragline said: As others have said, our principal problems now have to do with indifference and finding "reasons" not to believe what we are seeing happening, principally by claiming that anyone who calls attention to it must be biased and that somehow that bias means that it must not be happening, even though we can see it for ourselves.
I mostly agree, but a good part of the current problem, as JP noted, is due to the obvious fact that there are other aspects of reality that are being denied. For instance, why do some of the just-immigrated-this-year Muslim mothers in my neighborhood tell their children not to play with the black children? Why do I hear black and white people who were born in American using the expression "Driving while Asian." so frequently. Why do I believe that I would have the easiest possible day substitute teaching if the students were mostly girls recently immigrated from Bangladesh? Why did my extremely affluent, extremely liberal lover who adopted and raised two special needs black children, feel compelled to make extremely stereotypical inquiries about my black lover? All humans suck. But, for instance, some affluent white humans who live in Denmark have to hire less affluent white people who live over the border to chop down trees to burn in their stoves, so it seems like they suck less. Etc. etc. etc.

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Ego
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Ego »

.
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@jenny, first of all, thank you for such an honest post.
jennypenny wrote:Why do you think this is suddenly an issue? Did 60 million people just wake up this year and realize they are racist? People scapegoat when their backs are against the wall. If they weren't suffering economically, they wouldn't be looking for a scapegoat. We all know that bad times give rise to baser instincts. A normally honest person will gladly steal to feed their hungry child, and in that situation most would empathize.
I've posted before that the median income for Trump supporters in South Carolina was $72,000, higher than Clinton supporters. Median, not average. Has anyone seen data on other states?

So that leads us to the fact that we are misunderstanding the "real" problem. There are certainly people who were motivated to vote for Trump because they were suffering economically. But that doesn't explain the numbers he received. There are a lot of people who are not suffering financially who voted for him. That doesn't mean those people are not suffering. They are! The question is, what is it they are suffering from?

- Anxiety. Fear. They are afraid. Trump's "Make America Great Again" evoked memories of a time when they were not afraid.

- Yet just about every risk that we measure is declining. We are safer and more secure now than ever before in human history.

- Many millions of people are increasing in anxiety at a time when they have less to be anxious about. How can this happen?

Fear is contagious. Anxiety spreads like a virus. It takes people like Bannon and those who work for him to craft stories that stoke fear. He was quoted this morning as saying, "Darkness is good. Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan. That's power. It only helps us when they (liberals) get it wrong. When they're blind to who we are and what we're doing."

So it takes people like Bannon to stoke the fear so he can capitalize on it. But that's not enough. It takes others who are good people to help him. Fear is contagious so it takes people like Typhoid Mary who by all accounts was a kind person but nonetheless acted as a super spreader of the disease.

I've mentioned this contagion of fear among the non-poor before and you responded with this:
jennypenny wrote: Ok, but I don't think we can assume that everyone will react the same way to fear, or in a destructive way. Take my hardcore prepper friends. Yes, they might be a little paranoid and some are convinced the end is nigh for various reasons. But what has their response been? They are more likely to be out of debt. They are more likely to attempt self-sustaining lifestyles and own an alternative energy system like solar or wind. Many avoid flying and spend their vacations camping or doing other outdoorsy activities. Fear might be their motivator, but they live lifestyles that are much better for the planet than my prius-driving Stepford neighbors who think they are doing more because they 'like' the green causes on facebook and recycle their Fiji water bottles.

Actions matter. We don't have to agree about the 'why' of them. I think that's aiming for the wrong target.
and this....
jennypenny wrote:My point is that we can't assume that what we see as faulty reasoning will automatically produce negative actions, we shouldn't discount positive actions because we don't like the motivation behind them, and we can agree on what actions need to be taken even if we disagree about why or what the result might be.
Paranoid. The end is nigh. Faulty reasoning. There is the real Trump problem in a nutshell.

I wish I was a better writer so that my tone of voice could come across. It may seem as if I am yelling. I am not. If anything, I am speaking quietly, deliberately and with a great deal of caring.

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