I think the guns vs no-guns/collaboration disagreement largely comes from the willingness to believe or accept that society can pass through level 4. This again depends on how socially cohesive people are locally. I imagine this varies a lot from place to place. Some approaches are to establish more social cohesion beforehand. Other approaches are to dig moats and buy guns in case level 5 is reached. Some combination of prevention and insurance is optimal.
Do (or did) you find NO value/satisfaction in working
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BeyondtheWrap
- Posts: 598
- Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:38 pm
- Location: NYC
I'm still in college, so I haven't started my career yet. I have two main motivations for ERE:
1. I think it's cool. I like being different from other people and find the idea of alternative lifestyles attractive, but this one actually seems practical.
2. After ERE, I want to spend time pursuing acting without having to make a living from it.
I don't know if I will dislike my job, but as a person I tend to be flexible and see the positive in my situation. However, one thing that may get in the way of me liking my job (actuary) is that I think insurance is a rip-off. Of course, almost everyone thinks it's necessary, so I guess that can help comfort me.
1. I think it's cool. I like being different from other people and find the idea of alternative lifestyles attractive, but this one actually seems practical.
2. After ERE, I want to spend time pursuing acting without having to make a living from it.
I don't know if I will dislike my job, but as a person I tend to be flexible and see the positive in my situation. However, one thing that may get in the way of me liking my job (actuary) is that I think insurance is a rip-off. Of course, almost everyone thinks it's necessary, so I guess that can help comfort me.
I found paid work unsatisfying after 20 tears, and had tried a number of careers. I've always believed in saving, and realised I was on the road to ERE only in the last couple of months of work. The final straw for me was the company trying to move me to work to a different team, to work on a larger scale for the same pay.
Read the book twenty good summers by Martin Hawes, it dawned on me that I didn't want to do nothing, I just wanted to give up working for idiots, and wanted to work part time.
Retrained as a teacher, I can do relief teaching for good money when I feel like it. But found I was working full time again, which wasn't the plan.
A relative was very sick and I was told someone had to look after them full time. (I was doing it during my spare time)
I am now a full time carer. It's the most rewarding, challenging work I've ever done, is unpaid but makes perfect sense.
So ERE gives me the ability to live the sort of life I believe in, and this website is a great source of support
Each day is a bonus.
Read the book twenty good summers by Martin Hawes, it dawned on me that I didn't want to do nothing, I just wanted to give up working for idiots, and wanted to work part time.
Retrained as a teacher, I can do relief teaching for good money when I feel like it. But found I was working full time again, which wasn't the plan.
A relative was very sick and I was told someone had to look after them full time. (I was doing it during my spare time)
I am now a full time carer. It's the most rewarding, challenging work I've ever done, is unpaid but makes perfect sense.
So ERE gives me the ability to live the sort of life I believe in, and this website is a great source of support
Each day is a bonus.
@JasonR "I think we all agree that if society implodes gold will be as worthless as dirt.
I was just wondering about it's use in a hyper-inflated economy which is still functioning, albeit, poorly. I never understood what a person was supposed to do with their brick in a practical sense."
JasonR, hyperinflation doesn't last forever and doesn't happen in all countries at the same time. It doesn't turn the world into a Mad Max movie.
Gold is a compact and highly portable store of wealth. Its value fluctuates, but is independent of a counterparty and so far has never gone to zero.
You can take your gold with you and use it to start a new life elsewhere, you can keep it so your fortune won't disappear during hyperinflation, or you can keep it until you can exchange it for something that is more valuable in the long term (for example buy real estate when it has become very cheap, expressed in gold).
The big problem is of course that we don't know what the future will bring. Don't bet the farm on a single scenario or on a single asset (especially one that doesn't generate any revenue).
But I remain convinced that there's a role for gold in many very bad situations that have happened many times in countries all over the world, and are likely to happen again. (wars, currency failure, persecutions, etc.)
I was just wondering about it's use in a hyper-inflated economy which is still functioning, albeit, poorly. I never understood what a person was supposed to do with their brick in a practical sense."
JasonR, hyperinflation doesn't last forever and doesn't happen in all countries at the same time. It doesn't turn the world into a Mad Max movie.
Gold is a compact and highly portable store of wealth. Its value fluctuates, but is independent of a counterparty and so far has never gone to zero.
You can take your gold with you and use it to start a new life elsewhere, you can keep it so your fortune won't disappear during hyperinflation, or you can keep it until you can exchange it for something that is more valuable in the long term (for example buy real estate when it has become very cheap, expressed in gold).
The big problem is of course that we don't know what the future will bring. Don't bet the farm on a single scenario or on a single asset (especially one that doesn't generate any revenue).
But I remain convinced that there's a role for gold in many very bad situations that have happened many times in countries all over the world, and are likely to happen again. (wars, currency failure, persecutions, etc.)
Hmm, While I was gone, the thread's taken an interesting diversion into "the road to perdition" 
!
Regarding collapse/gold/survivalism/precautions etc., I like this piece from a book that I will blog about in my next, upcoming blog post:
I came to realize that my passivity in the face of destructive change was, at least in part, due to the fact that I had confused culture with nature. I had not realized that many of the negative trends I saw were the result of my own industrial culture, rather than of some natural, evolutionary force beyond our control. Without really thinking about it, I also assumed that human beings were essentially selfish, struggling to compete and survive, and that more cooperative societies were nothing more than Utopian dreams.
It was not strange that I thought the way I did. Even though I had lived in many different countries, they had all been industrial cultures. My travels in less “developed” parts of the world, though fairly extensive, had not been enough to afford me an inside view. Some intellectual travels, like reading Aldous Huxley and Erich Fromm, had opened a few doors, but I was essentially a product of industrial society, educated with the sort of blinders that every culture employs in order to perpetuate itself. My values, my understanding of history, my thought patterns all reflected the world view of homo industrialis.
Mainstream Western thinkers from Adam Smith to Freud and today’s academics tend to universalize what is in fact Western or industrial experience. Explicitly or implicitly, they assume that the traits they describe are a manifestation of human nature, rather than a product of industrial culture. This tendency to generalize from Western experience becomes almost inevitable as Western culture teaches out from Europe and North America to influence all the earth’s people.
Every society tends to place itself at the center of the universe and to view other cultures through its own coloured lenses. What distinguishes Western culture is that it has grown so widespread and so powerful that it has lost a perspective on itself; there is no “other” with which to compare itself. It is assumed that everyone either is like us or wants to be.
Ivan Illich's writings also highlight this aspect (Thank you Jacob for pointing me to him). The Archdruid Report also shares this premise, and therefore offers tips that ease the road while transitioning towards cooperation.
Of course, I've read Orlov's and ferfal's blogs in the past, and perhaps, before moving towards the archdruid or Schumacher/Kohr/Illich vision, Ferfal and Orlov and Kunstler will share the "I told you so already!" podium! Ribbonfarm also tries to hodge-podge all of this doomery/nihilist/etc.... into some semi coherent mish-mash from time to time, if you're interested.
[*cough*] I too mused about it recently in my blog, by juxtaposing Oz's flood response and another disaster response from the 1920s.
Oh, so what's my "coloured lens", you ask?
It's this: Part of my daily morning prayer is this Verse, and, yes I believe in those verses when I say them, and I also believe that this is real "human nature", regardless of what one might individually make of it.
! Regarding collapse/gold/survivalism/precautions etc., I like this piece from a book that I will blog about in my next, upcoming blog post:
I came to realize that my passivity in the face of destructive change was, at least in part, due to the fact that I had confused culture with nature. I had not realized that many of the negative trends I saw were the result of my own industrial culture, rather than of some natural, evolutionary force beyond our control. Without really thinking about it, I also assumed that human beings were essentially selfish, struggling to compete and survive, and that more cooperative societies were nothing more than Utopian dreams.
It was not strange that I thought the way I did. Even though I had lived in many different countries, they had all been industrial cultures. My travels in less “developed” parts of the world, though fairly extensive, had not been enough to afford me an inside view. Some intellectual travels, like reading Aldous Huxley and Erich Fromm, had opened a few doors, but I was essentially a product of industrial society, educated with the sort of blinders that every culture employs in order to perpetuate itself. My values, my understanding of history, my thought patterns all reflected the world view of homo industrialis.
Mainstream Western thinkers from Adam Smith to Freud and today’s academics tend to universalize what is in fact Western or industrial experience. Explicitly or implicitly, they assume that the traits they describe are a manifestation of human nature, rather than a product of industrial culture. This tendency to generalize from Western experience becomes almost inevitable as Western culture teaches out from Europe and North America to influence all the earth’s people.
Every society tends to place itself at the center of the universe and to view other cultures through its own coloured lenses. What distinguishes Western culture is that it has grown so widespread and so powerful that it has lost a perspective on itself; there is no “other” with which to compare itself. It is assumed that everyone either is like us or wants to be.
Ivan Illich's writings also highlight this aspect (Thank you Jacob for pointing me to him). The Archdruid Report also shares this premise, and therefore offers tips that ease the road while transitioning towards cooperation.
Of course, I've read Orlov's and ferfal's blogs in the past, and perhaps, before moving towards the archdruid or Schumacher/Kohr/Illich vision, Ferfal and Orlov and Kunstler will share the "I told you so already!" podium! Ribbonfarm also tries to hodge-podge all of this doomery/nihilist/etc.... into some semi coherent mish-mash from time to time, if you're interested.
[*cough*] I too mused about it recently in my blog, by juxtaposing Oz's flood response and another disaster response from the 1920s.
Oh, so what's my "coloured lens", you ask?
It's this: Part of my daily morning prayer is this Verse, and, yes I believe in those verses when I say them, and I also believe that this is real "human nature", regardless of what one might individually make of it.
I write software that makes engineers redundant (Yes - you heard that correctly. Even mechanical and chemical engineers are getting replaced by computers)
I love the work, but I hate the job, if you know what I mean. I would also love to have the flexibility to work on different things and pursue other interests. Doing the same thing over and over again, no matter how complicated, eventually bores me to death and makes me want to do something else for a while...
I love the work, but I hate the job, if you know what I mean. I would also love to have the flexibility to work on different things and pursue other interests. Doing the same thing over and over again, no matter how complicated, eventually bores me to death and makes me want to do something else for a while...
Just remembered this: A film on Collapse done in the perspective of a layman
The title refers to Ruppert’s belief that unsustainable energy and financial policies have led to an ongoing collapse of modern industrial civilization.
The bulk of the film presents Ruppert making an array of predictions including social unrest, violence, population dislocation and governmental collapses in the United States and throughout the world. He draws on the same news reports and data available to any Internet user, but he applies a unique interpretation -- “connecting the dots” as he calls it.
Smith (Film's Director) periodically stops Ruppert to question his assumptions and provide a note of skepticism.
The title refers to Ruppert’s belief that unsustainable energy and financial policies have led to an ongoing collapse of modern industrial civilization.
The bulk of the film presents Ruppert making an array of predictions including social unrest, violence, population dislocation and governmental collapses in the United States and throughout the world. He draws on the same news reports and data available to any Internet user, but he applies a unique interpretation -- “connecting the dots” as he calls it.
Smith (Film's Director) periodically stops Ruppert to question his assumptions and provide a note of skepticism.
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DividendGuy
- Posts: 441
- Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:58 pm
I really can't add much to this discussion, as it's been very relevant and lively. I don't think work is necessarily evil, but once you start to see the value in time over money there is no turning back. Do I vilify my work? No, I don't hate it to an extreme level. But could I find many, many other things I'd rather do with my 50+ hours a week? Yes, I could. For me, work is a means to an end: paying bills. Once you figure out ways to reduce or eliminate said bills you find yourself in the unique circumstance that you no longer need the means. I am slowly replacing the means I currently receive from my job with passive income. Once passive income meets expenses I'm gone. And I'll never look back. I don't know if I'll be riding my bike and playing all day long, but spending more time with friends and family, lounging beach side, reading more, watching more, learning more, and just doing MORE of everything but working will fill my plate up pretty quickly. I can't wait.
@B,
Interesting thought.
@Don Immanuel, @M,
I was told by my "lines" in my last job to architect the uber-software-tool that would make entire teams of testing engineers across different verticals jobless (close to a 1000 at least)!! OTOH, it would make the lines some hefty packets as: "performance bonus for s(h)aving significant Cost-To-Company amounts", but leave the others facing significant upheavals (read "redundancies, "re-training", "skill-set upgrade", etc...). I "engineered its early death", by persistently demanding that there must be a written agreement that the tool would be rolled out in corporate HQ (abroad) first, before it was deployed in India. So I know how you feel.
@floridamike,
What's your takeaway on this? You seem to have gone incognito after posting your query?
Interesting thought.
@Don Immanuel, @M,
I was told by my "lines" in my last job to architect the uber-software-tool that would make entire teams of testing engineers across different verticals jobless (close to a 1000 at least)!! OTOH, it would make the lines some hefty packets as: "performance bonus for s(h)aving significant Cost-To-Company amounts", but leave the others facing significant upheavals (read "redundancies, "re-training", "skill-set upgrade", etc...). I "engineered its early death", by persistently demanding that there must be a written agreement that the tool would be rolled out in corporate HQ (abroad) first, before it was deployed in India. So I know how you feel.
@floridamike,
What's your takeaway on this? You seem to have gone incognito after posting your query?
@Surio: I understand unease about knowing that your work would displace testing engineers. However, if a job is simple enough that it can be done automatically with a program, it doesn't seem like a very worthwhile or rewarding job.
Basically if 1000 people are stuck doing crap work (and to me, any work that is repetitive enough to be automated is crap work) that a single person, or small team of people could put together a tool to do, that seems like a lot of human energy wasted.
Basically if 1000 people are stuck doing crap work (and to me, any work that is repetitive enough to be automated is crap work) that a single person, or small team of people could put together a tool to do, that seems like a lot of human energy wasted.
@m741,
I won't argue with the principles you've raised. Schumacher also raises this in his writings:
To organise work in such a manner that it becomes meaningless, boring, stultifying, or nerve-racking for the worker would be little short of criminal; it would indicate a greater concern with goods than with people, an evil lack of compassion and a soul-destroying degree of attachment to the most primitive side of this worldly existence.
Equally, to strive for leisure as an alternative to work would be considered a complete misunderstanding of one of the basic truths of human existence, namely that work and leisure are complementary parts of the same living process and cannot be separated without destroying the joy of work and the bliss of leisure.
However, in that case, testing actually involved significant amount of mental effort from the engineer.
To quote just one instance: there was always the human grasp of what the requirements said two releases prior and what it said now, and why it is not logical wrt another point four pages down the document OR if there was an actual "scope creep" inserted by the dudes from design now...etc...etc...
To give some credit to my compadres, if it was indeed mind numbing, the engineers themselves would have moved on to other areas/organisations.! They were adding value in that loooong chain of worker ants modern workforces seem keen to keep and they righfully felt pride in their jobs. Knowing all this (which I didn't expect the "rarified air fliers" to know anyway), I felt compelled to sabotage it at the expense of my standing with the "bosses" 
I won't argue with the principles you've raised. Schumacher also raises this in his writings:
To organise work in such a manner that it becomes meaningless, boring, stultifying, or nerve-racking for the worker would be little short of criminal; it would indicate a greater concern with goods than with people, an evil lack of compassion and a soul-destroying degree of attachment to the most primitive side of this worldly existence.
Equally, to strive for leisure as an alternative to work would be considered a complete misunderstanding of one of the basic truths of human existence, namely that work and leisure are complementary parts of the same living process and cannot be separated without destroying the joy of work and the bliss of leisure.
However, in that case, testing actually involved significant amount of mental effort from the engineer.
To quote just one instance: there was always the human grasp of what the requirements said two releases prior and what it said now, and why it is not logical wrt another point four pages down the document OR if there was an actual "scope creep" inserted by the dudes from design now...etc...etc...
To give some credit to my compadres, if it was indeed mind numbing, the engineers themselves would have moved on to other areas/organisations.
! They were adding value in that loooong chain of worker ants modern workforces seem keen to keep and they righfully felt pride in their jobs. Knowing all this (which I didn't expect the "rarified air fliers" to know anyway), I felt compelled to sabotage it at the expense of my standing with the "bosses"