I wouldn't do it.
you should aim for a lower ranking university in a state with a cheaper cost of living...
For example if you were to go to the Universtiy of Arkansas Art school that would cost you 15$ a year. Including room and board in University housing. You still work part time as a massage therapist and the whole thing is basically free... (the estimate is for an out of state undergraduate student for 15 credits per semester)
Estimated Tuition and Fees
$7,566.70
*Please Note: Other fees may apply. Certain EDAD, HESC, PEAC, RECR, SPED, ARCH, and LARC courses are assessed additional course charges. Refer to the Schedule of Classes to determine the appropriate fees for these courses.
Tuition
$2,605.20
Arkansas Union Fee
$51.90
ASG Fee
$10.35
Distinguished Lecture Fee
$6.75
Enhanced Learning Center
$15.00
Facilities Fee
$90.00
Fine Arts Fee
$4.05
Health Fee
$106.65
HPER Operational Fee
$49.20
Media Fee
$10.35
Network & Data Systems Fee
$151.80
Safe Ride Fee
$3.30
Student Activity Fee
$13.65
Student Concert Fee
$8.25
Student Health Debt Fee
$13.05
Student Readership Fee
$4.50
Technology Fee
$33.60
Transit Fee
$36.15
J. William Fulbright College of Arts and Sciences
$169.95
ID Card Fee
$22.00
New Student Fee
$140.00
Estimated Room and Board (University Housing)
$4,021.00
For the love of God, talk me out of art school!
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George the original one
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Plain_simple
- Posts: 15
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alex Oliver Why not???
You said that
<<But I really, really, really want to go to art school. I spend most of my day drawing (or reading). I've been taking art classes since they started being offered. It excites me like nothing else....<<<<
With this plan, you can go to art school, move out of your state and not going broke by doing so...
I think that my plan is perfect. You will have plenty of time to move to San Francisco afterward.
You said that
<<But I really, really, really want to go to art school. I spend most of my day drawing (or reading). I've been taking art classes since they started being offered. It excites me like nothing else....<<<<
With this plan, you can go to art school, move out of your state and not going broke by doing so...
I think that my plan is perfect. You will have plenty of time to move to San Francisco afterward.
@AlexOliver
I went to undergrad and law school in the Bay Area, so I can definitely understand the attraction. And fog is way better than rain IMO. But, I would guess that there are probably more massage therapists per capita in the Bay Area than just about anywhere else in the U.S. That might mean there are a lot of customers (good), or it might mean there's a lot of competition that drives down rates (bad). I'd definitely market test your assumption that you can make $25-50K per year part-time as a masseuse.
I went to undergrad and law school in the Bay Area, so I can definitely understand the attraction. And fog is way better than rain IMO. But, I would guess that there are probably more massage therapists per capita in the Bay Area than just about anywhere else in the U.S. That might mean there are a lot of customers (good), or it might mean there's a lot of competition that drives down rates (bad). I'd definitely market test your assumption that you can make $25-50K per year part-time as a masseuse.
Alex, could you share your plans wrt architecture? I think that should inform your decision.
For example, a good friend of mine from high school got a liberal arts degree that he's never used (same here), did Americorps with Habitat For Humanity for a couple years, and learned how to build houses. In the ensuing half-decade, he's built up a very successful design/build operation in Virginia--Dwell Magazine-style houses built on spec as well as for hire. Mind you, his mind and temperament are perfectly suited to this, and he's definitely a self-starter. Finally, I would add that he saved the collateral for the loan required to build his first spec house by living an extremely ERE-like lifestyle.
So if you have an interest in designing and building houses, you could do something like that without going deeply into debt. You've read about the architecture profession, so you know that actually building your designs won't necessarily happen with regularity as a "professional."
I actually took a general art course at CCA ten years ago when it was CCAC, incidentally, and the teachers of that course are on the cover of Dwell this month; their house in San Francisco, which is featured in the magazine, is amazing. I'd hesitate to call it ERE housing, but the theme of the article is that much of the material they used was cheap, free and repurposed. The caveat of this story is that the husband has an architecture degree, and I'm not sure how possible it would have been for them to do what they did if he didn't have the knowledge that degree bestowed on him.
For example, a good friend of mine from high school got a liberal arts degree that he's never used (same here), did Americorps with Habitat For Humanity for a couple years, and learned how to build houses. In the ensuing half-decade, he's built up a very successful design/build operation in Virginia--Dwell Magazine-style houses built on spec as well as for hire. Mind you, his mind and temperament are perfectly suited to this, and he's definitely a self-starter. Finally, I would add that he saved the collateral for the loan required to build his first spec house by living an extremely ERE-like lifestyle.
So if you have an interest in designing and building houses, you could do something like that without going deeply into debt. You've read about the architecture profession, so you know that actually building your designs won't necessarily happen with regularity as a "professional."
I actually took a general art course at CCA ten years ago when it was CCAC, incidentally, and the teachers of that course are on the cover of Dwell this month; their house in San Francisco, which is featured in the magazine, is amazing. I'd hesitate to call it ERE housing, but the theme of the article is that much of the material they used was cheap, free and repurposed. The caveat of this story is that the husband has an architecture degree, and I'm not sure how possible it would have been for them to do what they did if he didn't have the knowledge that degree bestowed on him.
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AlexOliver
- Posts: 461
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:25 pm
@Plain-simple: I'm a city person.
@Zev: What I seem to do now is design houses and bookstores, and am really interested in how our environment affects our general mood. I don't have any big plans, like "Be the biggest, most well-known and well-respected architect of our generation!" I just want to design environments for people to live and work in.
I'm the kind of person who can spend hours on a spreadsheet, or SketchUp, or a gridded piece of paper, working out a problem. I realize most of my designs won't get built, but I enjoy the process.
What was your general impression of CCA, if you don't mind me asking?
@Zev: What I seem to do now is design houses and bookstores, and am really interested in how our environment affects our general mood. I don't have any big plans, like "Be the biggest, most well-known and well-respected architect of our generation!" I just want to design environments for people to live and work in.
I'm the kind of person who can spend hours on a spreadsheet, or SketchUp, or a gridded piece of paper, working out a problem. I realize most of my designs won't get built, but I enjoy the process.
What was your general impression of CCA, if you don't mind me asking?
@Alex If you're already spending hours sketching stuff up, already obsessed, and if you have any interest in actually building some of your designs--even getting your hands dirty--I'd seriously consider going the Habitat/Americorps route. The pay is incredibly low, but my friend managed to save a surprising amount during his two-year stint by his frugality.
I liked my teachers and classmates at CCA, and the campus (SF) was great--lots of open space to work in. I was dating a graphic design student at the time, which it has a good reputation for, but I'm not familiar with the architecture department. Check out that Dwell article, though, to see some great work produced by people who (I think used to) teach there.
Another idea for you: Work for a design/build company that you like, hanging sheetrock or whatever, and just pick up things as you go. I have a feeling that my friend, the design-builder, might advise to do just that, rather than giving your labor to the government for bargain rates (Americorps) for two years. This is a strategy you could implement tomorrow.
I liked my teachers and classmates at CCA, and the campus (SF) was great--lots of open space to work in. I was dating a graphic design student at the time, which it has a good reputation for, but I'm not familiar with the architecture department. Check out that Dwell article, though, to see some great work produced by people who (I think used to) teach there.
Another idea for you: Work for a design/build company that you like, hanging sheetrock or whatever, and just pick up things as you go. I have a feeling that my friend, the design-builder, might advise to do just that, rather than giving your labor to the government for bargain rates (Americorps) for two years. This is a strategy you could implement tomorrow.
Alex,
I also mentioned this in the very next line.
"Art school/Architecture courses might explain the nuts and bolts but can't make you any more better/worse than your "own" creativity potential.".
Because I know many will defend it in exactly the way you described. But I felt like I have grown....etc... And, if you were to detach yourself from the experience and observe carefully, that is what has happened.
In my own case, I've come to realise that having realised that they're becoming obsolete in a way, colleges have resorted to forming a cartel with industry that insists on "that piece of paper" from "this or that" university before they issue a gatepass!
I *almost* self-taught myself computers (Mechanical Engineer originally), by simply keeping some good role models and striving to emulate them (Mine were the Bell Labs guys who wrote interesting books. Just as an example, one of the world's gaming pioneers is an auto-didact). And gaming may not be art, but there is a high element of creativity involved. He broke new ground simply because he wasn't sent through that crank handle system.
Art can be very double edged, and there's no room for thinking othewise. You probably know the life of Van Gogh. There's a tale that makes interesting reading.
Jacob is right on many counts, if you didn't care about the money, etc... then freelance (like Harlan Hubbard)..... and remember this, "consider how the experience may taint/alter your perception of art.". This is so true.
I watched my brother pay back his fees, and I totally agree with Mo, it is just such a rough haul! I know how it feels, Mo... Now that Mo's reminded me, I won't advice it, Alex.
@Zev,
A degree may provide the nuts/bolts, but real life NEVER throws any cookie-cutter problems of applying it straight from the text book. One of our own famous architects was trained in architecture, but totally moved away from that, learnt indigenous architecture from the local people, and is to this day more famous that the several million other architects in India.
Art/Design/Creativity is best not to be tainted by "this is how we've done it all the time since 1543...1672...1798...1832..."! Carmack is just one example.
I also mentioned this in the very next line.
"Art school/Architecture courses might explain the nuts and bolts but can't make you any more better/worse than your "own" creativity potential.".
Because I know many will defend it in exactly the way you described. But I felt like I have grown....etc... And, if you were to detach yourself from the experience and observe carefully, that is what has happened.
In my own case, I've come to realise that having realised that they're becoming obsolete in a way, colleges have resorted to forming a cartel with industry that insists on "that piece of paper" from "this or that" university before they issue a gatepass!
I *almost* self-taught myself computers (Mechanical Engineer originally), by simply keeping some good role models and striving to emulate them (Mine were the Bell Labs guys who wrote interesting books. Just as an example, one of the world's gaming pioneers is an auto-didact). And gaming may not be art, but there is a high element of creativity involved. He broke new ground simply because he wasn't sent through that crank handle system.
Art can be very double edged, and there's no room for thinking othewise. You probably know the life of Van Gogh. There's a tale that makes interesting reading.
Jacob is right on many counts, if you didn't care about the money, etc... then freelance (like Harlan Hubbard)..... and remember this, "consider how the experience may taint/alter your perception of art.". This is so true.
I watched my brother pay back his fees, and I totally agree with Mo, it is just such a rough haul! I know how it feels, Mo... Now that Mo's reminded me, I won't advice it, Alex.
@Zev,
A degree may provide the nuts/bolts, but real life NEVER throws any cookie-cutter problems of applying it straight from the text book. One of our own famous architects was trained in architecture, but totally moved away from that, learnt indigenous architecture from the local people, and is to this day more famous that the several million other architects in India.
Art/Design/Creativity is best not to be tainted by "this is how we've done it all the time since 1543...1672...1798...1832..."! Carmack is just one example.
You don't need a degree to become a successful artist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit_through_the_gift_shop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit_through_the_gift_shop
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AlexOliver
- Posts: 461
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:25 pm
@Zev: I don't know if I'm as interested in building as designing. Habitat's something to look into though.
I would say, I don't want to be an architect as much as I want to study architecture at this point. I would love to be an architect, don't get me wrong, but it's not at the forefront of my vision right now.
@Surio: To stretch the metaphor: One can have all the creativity in the world, but nothing's going to get built without nuts and bolts. College works for me. I like it a lot; I'm being exposed to ideas that I wouldn't have been otherwise and being taught by people who are really passionate about their subject matter.
@vern: Like I said before, I don't really want to be a successful artist, and even if I did, I'm not under the impression a degree would get me there.
I would say, I don't want to be an architect as much as I want to study architecture at this point. I would love to be an architect, don't get me wrong, but it's not at the forefront of my vision right now.
@Surio: To stretch the metaphor: One can have all the creativity in the world, but nothing's going to get built without nuts and bolts. College works for me. I like it a lot; I'm being exposed to ideas that I wouldn't have been otherwise and being taught by people who are really passionate about their subject matter.
@vern: Like I said before, I don't really want to be a successful artist, and even if I did, I'm not under the impression a degree would get me there.
Note: I am not condemning college. I am merely pointing that out there's more than one way to get those ideas. My brother stopped with a Masters' and works in a research establishment. Thanks to many quirks (of fate), he is now on par with other guys who spent 6+ years on a PhD while he was "slaving away for the man", but are now colleagues on the same pay scale in the same department (This is not to condemn PhDs either, OK?). And since he has notched more "corporate air miles" which (gasp!) openly puts him somewhat ahead of the PhDs - going by water-cooler talk anyway!
So, yes, I will go so far to say, college works out for everyone (in different ways), but allowing yourself to be convinced you won't get those ideas and those "nuts and bolts" if you hadn't been to college is unwise. That's the difference I am striving to point out to you with all those programmer guys and other examples.
In the end, it's your life, and you have got to do, what you got to do. I don't have anything more to say except, God Speed and Good Luck.
So, yes, I will go so far to say, college works out for everyone (in different ways), but allowing yourself to be convinced you won't get those ideas and those "nuts and bolts" if you hadn't been to college is unwise. That's the difference I am striving to point out to you with all those programmer guys and other examples.
In the end, it's your life, and you have got to do, what you got to do. I don't have anything more to say except, God Speed and Good Luck.
Paying $200,000 for a degree you won't be using makes no financial sense (you say you don't plan on being an architect?). $200,000 is *a lot of money*. I paid $180,000 for a house and the debt feels like a boat anchor around my neck. Debt is extremely unpleasant. If you really want to go to art school because you think it will improve your life somehow, please consider going somewhere else that is more reasonably priced. There are much cheaper cities to live in than SF which also have art schools. Accept that if you go this route you will likely be able to ER at best, not ERE. This is, of course, a personal judgement for you to choose which is more important.
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AlexOliver
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@AlexOliver
I hope I might be able to provide a slightly different perspective. When I headed off to college, I had a decent understanding of the cost, but not to the degree I thought. I graduated with just over 40k in loans, but I took great care to make sure that I graduated in three years, mostly by coming in with credits and taking nearly the max load at all times. Oh, and I'm only 2 1/2 years out of college, so all this is still pretty fresh to me.
Here are some of my thoughts:
1) Going to college and coming out with that much debt locks you into a plan that you are setting now. The debt will have some degree of control over your life until it is paid off.
2) In my experience the emotional impact of student debt was so much more than I could have envisioned.
3) 200k of debt service could look something like 1200-1500 a month outlay... 'nuff said?
4) You mention "studying" as opposed to "being". I went into and came out of college with a fair degree of idealism relating to the academic world. (i'm meyers-briggs infp, "idealist".) I was fascinated by study and loved the academic world. In the professional world, I found that there is just as much to learn as in school, so I'm not lacking for a challenge. The flavor of things tend to be a little different, but I've grown to appreciate and understand both worlds. I would say that if college provides the nuts and bolts, the professional world will actually provide the girders and posts.
I tend to ramble a bit, sorry. At the end, I would echo some of the other comments. Get your feet wet in the industry. You might find that what you get at first is not what you want to do, but keep an eye towards what you want to do. There are many ways to get a degree. One with a 200k deferred bill attached to it is probably not the way you want to go. Employers pay attention to people who pursue goals and do what it takes to achieve those goals.
I hope I might be able to provide a slightly different perspective. When I headed off to college, I had a decent understanding of the cost, but not to the degree I thought. I graduated with just over 40k in loans, but I took great care to make sure that I graduated in three years, mostly by coming in with credits and taking nearly the max load at all times. Oh, and I'm only 2 1/2 years out of college, so all this is still pretty fresh to me.
Here are some of my thoughts:
1) Going to college and coming out with that much debt locks you into a plan that you are setting now. The debt will have some degree of control over your life until it is paid off.
2) In my experience the emotional impact of student debt was so much more than I could have envisioned.
3) 200k of debt service could look something like 1200-1500 a month outlay... 'nuff said?
4) You mention "studying" as opposed to "being". I went into and came out of college with a fair degree of idealism relating to the academic world. (i'm meyers-briggs infp, "idealist".) I was fascinated by study and loved the academic world. In the professional world, I found that there is just as much to learn as in school, so I'm not lacking for a challenge. The flavor of things tend to be a little different, but I've grown to appreciate and understand both worlds. I would say that if college provides the nuts and bolts, the professional world will actually provide the girders and posts.
I tend to ramble a bit, sorry. At the end, I would echo some of the other comments. Get your feet wet in the industry. You might find that what you get at first is not what you want to do, but keep an eye towards what you want to do. There are many ways to get a degree. One with a 200k deferred bill attached to it is probably not the way you want to go. Employers pay attention to people who pursue goals and do what it takes to achieve those goals.
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jacob
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@AlexOliver - "I do plan to be an architect, but it's secondary to my goal of studying architecture. If that makes any sense."
I would strongly encourage, nay, demand, a plan if 200k is involved. You sound a lot like me when I was your age. "What do you plan to do after you're done studying?" I don't know yet, physics? (very vague answer). "Why do you study physics?" Because it's fascinating to me. The inevitable result was that I kept studying physics until I got a PhD; even after that I kept studying even if it wasn't the optimal use of my time... I am very fortunate that I actually got paid to study rather than the other way around. Otherwise it would have been hell to realize that while I liked studying physics and doing research, I didn't actually enjoy the self-promoting, undergraduate teaching, grant-writing, and/or white paper/progress reporting I would need to do to actually work as a physicist. Thanks to ERE, I had the option to do something else. With 200k in debt, you likely won't.
To summarize: The world's institutions will not let you study a subject for more than fiveish years. A 200k debt will be with you much longer than that. Think about the next step. Your school period will be over faster than you think, then what?
I would strongly encourage, nay, demand, a plan if 200k is involved. You sound a lot like me when I was your age. "What do you plan to do after you're done studying?" I don't know yet, physics? (very vague answer). "Why do you study physics?" Because it's fascinating to me. The inevitable result was that I kept studying physics until I got a PhD; even after that I kept studying even if it wasn't the optimal use of my time... I am very fortunate that I actually got paid to study rather than the other way around. Otherwise it would have been hell to realize that while I liked studying physics and doing research, I didn't actually enjoy the self-promoting, undergraduate teaching, grant-writing, and/or white paper/progress reporting I would need to do to actually work as a physicist. Thanks to ERE, I had the option to do something else. With 200k in debt, you likely won't.
To summarize: The world's institutions will not let you study a subject for more than fiveish years. A 200k debt will be with you much longer than that. Think about the next step. Your school period will be over faster than you think, then what?
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AlexOliver
- Posts: 461
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:25 pm
Of course you guys are right. Especially this from Jacob: ""What do you plan to do after you're done studying?" I don't know yet, physics? (very vague answer). "Why do you study physics?" Because it's fascinating to me."
"Thanks to ERE, I had the option to do something else. With 200k in debt, you likely won't."
Since the deadline's so close and I already have the application materials together except the essay, I'm going to apply, and see where I'm at in a few months when I get the acceptance/denial letter. I'll probably be seeing things a lot more clearly then, when I'm not so entrenched in the application process.
Thanks guys
"Thanks to ERE, I had the option to do something else. With 200k in debt, you likely won't."
Since the deadline's so close and I already have the application materials together except the essay, I'm going to apply, and see where I'm at in a few months when I get the acceptance/denial letter. I'll probably be seeing things a lot more clearly then, when I'm not so entrenched in the application process.
Thanks guys