For the Canucks amongst us... a Vancouverite has made a resolution to buy only Made in Canada for 2011 and is blogging about his experience.
This might be of interest to some on the forum... or, you might want to pepper him with suitable content:
"Canadian deoderant?? Who wears deoderant?"
"Canadian media?? Burn your television! Screw the cellphone! Get a free radio."
Canadian Content Blog
Pretty much none of the Vancouver Olympics 2010 merchandise was made in Canada.
Even pasta at the store, made from wheat grown on the Canadian prairies, is made in Italy. This one boggles the mind. We send wheat from Canada to Italy, and Italy sends it right back as pasta. It's not hard to make pasta, so why are we doing it??
Even pasta at the store, made from wheat grown on the Canadian prairies, is made in Italy. This one boggles the mind. We send wheat from Canada to Italy, and Italy sends it right back as pasta. It's not hard to make pasta, so why are we doing it??
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Robert Muir
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:15 pm
"trading his iphone for blackberry" I can't imagine that much of a blackberry is made in canada. Probably at most the parts are assembled.
I'm not big fan of "buy canadian" or "buy american" -- to me it seems like trade is a great thing. You can get the best product at the best price from the most efficient producers in the world. The only time it makes sense to me is when the environmental impacts outweigh the transportation costs. In fact, if environmental issues are his concern, he should be buying a lot stuff from the US as much of the US will be closer to him (in vancouver) than say ontario or quebec.
I'm not big fan of "buy canadian" or "buy american" -- to me it seems like trade is a great thing. You can get the best product at the best price from the most efficient producers in the world. The only time it makes sense to me is when the environmental impacts outweigh the transportation costs. In fact, if environmental issues are his concern, he should be buying a lot stuff from the US as much of the US will be closer to him (in vancouver) than say ontario or quebec.
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Plain_simple
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:17 am
@photoguy To me international trade is a modern form of slavery.
The Canadian guy blog is biased.. He says that he would only buy not made in Canada thing if he can not find a canadian made equivalent. If he was really serious in his project he will do without. He is also phasing his canadian purchases. month #1 household, monht #2 clothing etc.... Again if he was really serious in his project he would go cold turkey. Just my five cents...
The Canadian guy blog is biased.. He says that he would only buy not made in Canada thing if he can not find a canadian made equivalent. If he was really serious in his project he will do without. He is also phasing his canadian purchases. month #1 household, monht #2 clothing etc.... Again if he was really serious in his project he would go cold turkey. Just my five cents...
@photoguy, Please allow me:
I wanted to write a post on this one this week, but I will offer this to the forums first (do visit the blog too later on, please):
First, the researcher
And if your library has this book/video, watch it:
I've also placed these Wade Davis lectures here
This is always difficult topic, because by the time the argument peaks an accusation is levelled at me that "Easy for you to diss all this, AFTER you've received the benefits and the largesse, what about the villagers?". So, I've usually refrained from raising this anywhere. I know it is like lighting up a matchstick while sitting on a powder keg posting this in a predominantly "Western" forum, but sorry if I fray some nerves and ruffle some feathers.
In my 20s I was highly critical of Gandhi, but in my mid-30s, I am finally beginning to understand why he said:
When asked what he thought of Western civilization, Gandhi famously replied, "I think it would be a great idea." Thus he did not equate increasing scientific and technological sophistication with progress in civilization.
And BTW, I am an Indian (one of the billions from Asia), and I've never hid that aspect at any time in this forum.
I wanted to write a post on this one this week, but I will offer this to the forums first (do visit the blog too later on, please):
First, the researcher
And if your library has this book/video, watch it:
I've also placed these Wade Davis lectures here
This is always difficult topic, because by the time the argument peaks an accusation is levelled at me that "Easy for you to diss all this, AFTER you've received the benefits and the largesse, what about the villagers?". So, I've usually refrained from raising this anywhere. I know it is like lighting up a matchstick while sitting on a powder keg posting this in a predominantly "Western" forum, but sorry if I fray some nerves and ruffle some feathers.
In my 20s I was highly critical of Gandhi, but in my mid-30s, I am finally beginning to understand why he said:
When asked what he thought of Western civilization, Gandhi famously replied, "I think it would be a great idea." Thus he did not equate increasing scientific and technological sophistication with progress in civilization.
And BTW, I am an Indian (one of the billions from Asia), and I've never hid that aspect at any time in this forum.
@Surio -- I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make. Some of the links you listed seemed to have both pro and con arguments to trade. Certainly there is an environmental impact of countries becoming wealthier but nothing that points to "slavery".
The way I look at is would you rather be like South Korea and have an economy booming on trade (they have no natural resources) or would you be insular / no-trade north korea?
The way I look at is would you rather be like South Korea and have an economy booming on trade (they have no natural resources) or would you be insular / no-trade north korea?
You should know that one paragraph about a book by some Wikipedia volunteer is hardly something to base your views upon? I should have also attached some Amazon links perhaps, so you could have read more detailed reviews? Hmm?
They're starting points for you to look up the title and the issues a little by yourself. Watch the video in full. There have been some others who've actually spent some time listening to Wade Davis before coming back and posting their views on the thread, did you notice?
You are quite convinced that trade is good, choice is good, etc. For me to fundamentally challenge it is near impossible. You need to spend some time to understand the other viewpoint and that would mean you have to challenge yourself.
> Some of the links you listed seemed to have both
> pro and con arguments to trade.
Read again, and look in Amazon for better reviews from other people. That Wikipedia entry is hardly starting point for discussion.
> Certainly there is an environmental impact of countries
> becoming wealthier but nothing that points to "slavery".
Listen to his lectures in full.
> South Korea and have an economy booming on trade (they
> have no natural resources) or would you be insular /
> no-trade north korea?
Such arguments sound cool, but are fallacious. For all you know you are just writing this from your own conviction that the North Koreans are somehow suffering because they don't have all that we have (and media converage and social conditioning about communism)! But, here is the question. Are we happy because we have all of this? Meditate over it.
I will make it easy for you.
1. Insular has a negative meaning. Self-sufficient doesn't. And they imply the same thing. "A" does not need "B" in order to thrive! Indeed, ERE is all about self-sufficiency, but horrors... think of all those workers in China.... surely their jobs depend on your shopping (that trade you speak of)?
2. This book that I talk of was a major hit in Korea, it has been translated into 42 languages.
Here's a Korean writer on the book
Frankly, I am not inclined to go off on detailed explanations any more. More often than not, when people are usually convinced of the superiority/validity of their viewpoint(s) they challenge the other person. Then the onus of proof is on the challenged person. Typically I will expend energy and be shouting myself hoarse over several paragraphs, and get another one liner from you " I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make"
One last help from my side: Perhaps you are challenged for time? (Working for ERE, after all). If you really want to understand what's wrong with modern trade system, and how it is the modern equivalent of slavery, I recommend "The Story of Stuff" on youtube. (4:00 min, 7:00 min)
This is a heavily researched video, even though it looks simplistic. The references for her data are on her website.
I don't have an agenda to convert or send on guilt-trip, dude. I have a PC that I am typing this on that was "made in China". In olden days my dialogue would be restricted to my town crier and the newspaper. The platform has scaled that's all.
But the issues are more fundamental. Just listen to it with your ears, not your mind.
They're starting points for you to look up the title and the issues a little by yourself. Watch the video in full. There have been some others who've actually spent some time listening to Wade Davis before coming back and posting their views on the thread, did you notice?
You are quite convinced that trade is good, choice is good, etc. For me to fundamentally challenge it is near impossible. You need to spend some time to understand the other viewpoint and that would mean you have to challenge yourself.
> Some of the links you listed seemed to have both
> pro and con arguments to trade.
Read again, and look in Amazon for better reviews from other people. That Wikipedia entry is hardly starting point for discussion.
> Certainly there is an environmental impact of countries
> becoming wealthier but nothing that points to "slavery".
Listen to his lectures in full.
> South Korea and have an economy booming on trade (they
> have no natural resources) or would you be insular /
> no-trade north korea?
Such arguments sound cool, but are fallacious. For all you know you are just writing this from your own conviction that the North Koreans are somehow suffering because they don't have all that we have (and media converage and social conditioning about communism)! But, here is the question. Are we happy because we have all of this? Meditate over it.
I will make it easy for you.
1. Insular has a negative meaning. Self-sufficient doesn't. And they imply the same thing. "A" does not need "B" in order to thrive! Indeed, ERE is all about self-sufficiency, but horrors... think of all those workers in China.... surely their jobs depend on your shopping (that trade you speak of)?
2. This book that I talk of was a major hit in Korea, it has been translated into 42 languages.
Here's a Korean writer on the book
Frankly, I am not inclined to go off on detailed explanations any more. More often than not, when people are usually convinced of the superiority/validity of their viewpoint(s) they challenge the other person. Then the onus of proof is on the challenged person. Typically I will expend energy and be shouting myself hoarse over several paragraphs, and get another one liner from you " I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make"
One last help from my side: Perhaps you are challenged for time? (Working for ERE, after all). If you really want to understand what's wrong with modern trade system, and how it is the modern equivalent of slavery, I recommend "The Story of Stuff" on youtube. (4:00 min, 7:00 min)
This is a heavily researched video, even though it looks simplistic. The references for her data are on her website.
I don't have an agenda to convert or send on guilt-trip, dude. I have a PC that I am typing this on that was "made in China". In olden days my dialogue would be restricted to my town crier and the newspaper. The platform has scaled that's all.
But the issues are more fundamental. Just listen to it with your ears, not your mind.
So the Canadian is not going to buy any of the "miles long choo choo trains of double stacked connex containers stuff I saw going through northern Oklahoma a couple weeks ago? What? No World*Marts in Canada? Yikes, let me call the Bentonville home office and have them start building up there and putting people out of business!!! Well, I can taste his ideas, but it probably won't last too long. I would ask him if in Canada, have most people not stopped working in factories, and instead jumped into cubicles and bent over computers, surrounded by photos of family and coffee cups that say "I love me" on them?
Here, at least, manufacturing has been left to those who build products like machine tools and medical equipment, and yes the occasional jet-ski factory. All the mirrors and combs and electric toothbrushes are imported. It takes too many worker-bees to make an electric toothbrush, but only one to hover over a computer and order them from China. For up close and personal proof, tour one of the World*Mart distribution centers in Bentonville, AR. Tours from 9:00 am through 4:00 pm Mon-Fri.
I will admit I have not kept up with manufacturing in the USA. It has not been on my "look up" list, and I just seem to see it through the unemployment numbers. I know what "off shore" means and I know what "Going global" means. I also know our 45 year old Franklin Electric Company has shuttered shop and moved to Mexico last year. I doubt too many Franklin employees of the local area made that trip along with them.
I shop at World*Mart. Everybody else does too. They probably always will. If I were studied up enough I would write something on "trade", but I am not that keen on the subject. I can see things, and figure things out, probably just like ex-Franklin Electric employees can.
BTW--I am and always have been in favor of trade between nations. I consider it vital to the interests and progress of the entire world. So does World*Mart, and they have made lots of bongo bucks out of it.
Here, at least, manufacturing has been left to those who build products like machine tools and medical equipment, and yes the occasional jet-ski factory. All the mirrors and combs and electric toothbrushes are imported. It takes too many worker-bees to make an electric toothbrush, but only one to hover over a computer and order them from China. For up close and personal proof, tour one of the World*Mart distribution centers in Bentonville, AR. Tours from 9:00 am through 4:00 pm Mon-Fri.
I will admit I have not kept up with manufacturing in the USA. It has not been on my "look up" list, and I just seem to see it through the unemployment numbers. I know what "off shore" means and I know what "Going global" means. I also know our 45 year old Franklin Electric Company has shuttered shop and moved to Mexico last year. I doubt too many Franklin employees of the local area made that trip along with them.
I shop at World*Mart. Everybody else does too. They probably always will. If I were studied up enough I would write something on "trade", but I am not that keen on the subject. I can see things, and figure things out, probably just like ex-Franklin Electric employees can.
BTW--I am and always have been in favor of trade between nations. I consider it vital to the interests and progress of the entire world. So does World*Mart, and they have made lots of bongo bucks out of it.
@surio -- I'm not purposefully trying to be difficult. I looked at the researcher bio and your post which you linked. I did not see a clear statement of why trade is like slavery. And after reading your second post, I'm still unclear as to your argument. I can certainly see why some people may not be happy at progress, but that is not the same as, or even a metaphor for slavery in my mind.
You wrote: "For all you know you are just writing this from your own conviction that the North Koreans are somehow suffering because they don't have all that we have (and media converage and social conditioning about communism)! But, here is the question. Are we happy because we have all of this? Meditate over it."
My bringing up Korea was not merely an academic argument. I have relatives living on both side of border. I don't think you will find anybody in the south who would want to live in the north. Yes there are many problems caused by trade in Korea but overall the effect has been extremely positive and lifted the country out of shambles.
If you want to argue that trade, development, and globalization might not make us any happier, I might agree with that. But the poster above argued that trade was a modern form of slavery which is a completely different argument.
You wrote: "For all you know you are just writing this from your own conviction that the North Koreans are somehow suffering because they don't have all that we have (and media converage and social conditioning about communism)! But, here is the question. Are we happy because we have all of this? Meditate over it."
My bringing up Korea was not merely an academic argument. I have relatives living on both side of border. I don't think you will find anybody in the south who would want to live in the north. Yes there are many problems caused by trade in Korea but overall the effect has been extremely positive and lifted the country out of shambles.
If you want to argue that trade, development, and globalization might not make us any happier, I might agree with that. But the poster above argued that trade was a modern form of slavery which is a completely different argument.
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Plain_simple
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:17 am
@photoguy I would think that people don't chose sweat shops because there are great places to work. There is simply no better alternative or even no alternative at all. Many coutrymen are drawn to cities with the promise of a better life which never materialize and then get stuck and can not get out. Their working and living condition are horrendous.... Just so we can purchase 14$ snickers at Wal-mart (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Starter-Men-s ... s/15155283). There is also child labor etc... etc... To me that's slavery. Of course you could get those shoes for 84$: http://www.rawganique.com/FootwearSPSH1.htm
So, you did not read the rest of my thread?, Hmmm
nor searched for the stuff I requested you to search? Hmmmm
nor listened to a Wade Davis lecture even though they are only 15 mins or so long? Hmmm...
You are selectively quoting a small para again and again and want a crisp 3 bullet point answer for why trade (= or <>) slavery. As Jacob pointed out the irony in another thread:
I love these ... [paraphrased]
Guest: "This is very important. The world is ending. Corporations have bought off the government..."
Anchor: "Okay, we only got a minute left before we break to commercials...some closing remarks?"
That is the problem!! My replies will get long because they are interconnected and need a lot of explanations and you will get bored and end with the usual one-liner "I did not see a clear statement of why trade is like slavery."
As I mentioned earlier, you have to convince yourself and not me goose feeding you.
Just one simple suggestion: Close your eyes and think when the tables are turned, with all of the USA supplying RMB 4.99 radios and Rs. 20 sports shoes and Rs. 100 tennis rackets to the East. Trade may not be so spectacular, acceptable or favourable to the West then. And for doing mental exercises like these, you HAVE to challenge yourselves with lot of thought experiments like these. That will take time from you and the results may not be pleasant for you.
I wish it was a three bulletpoint thing. At least I am unable to distill it to 3 bullet points. I have gone one step further. Since you persist in only dealing with links on the thread Here is the link to
story of stuff
You'll see at 4mins and 7mins as to why trade equates the notion of slavery.
As regards to your Korea argument:
The whole point of ERE is to move out of fixation with "stuff". So, anyone with no ERE bent will be socially conditioned to WANT to be in a place where they can just drive somewhere and buy a "shiny, new" replacement (Korea, India, Timbuktoo, Bhutan....). It is called TV and advertising.... Pull the plug on it, and GDP will move to less than 1% in most parts of the World.
@all,
This is for all the participating/non-participating readers: Go read that book in the link by borrowing it from your library, watch the video if it is there, or or if you cannot be bothered, search yahoo for a free copy/torrent of the book and film (I searched briefly and saw there are some available). Read it in full. Then you will understand the notion of using the word "slavery" (a.k.a becoming bonded, dependent, etc....), (not as chained workers in galleys or louisiana plantations workers).
Despite the rigorous climate and the harsh environment, they were satisfied with their lives before the wave of westernization came through the village. They respected their land and neighbors and tried to listen to the voices inside them.
We don’t have any poverty here. – Tsewang Pljor , 1975
If you could only help us Ladakhis, we’re so poor. – Tsewang Paljor 1983
These sentences are vivid examples of what rapid change has brought about in Ladakh. Westernization has divided the Ladakhis from the earth, from one another, and ultimately from themselves, all in the name of progress. They have come to realize how little they had and are now eager for more and more money to buy unnecessary things.
That passage is from that Korean reviewer's link above. From a culture of self-sufficiency that lived fine till "trade" and "opening up" came, they've now been reduced to post-consumerist "junkies"... Slavery is defined by many terms.... that's all.
If you're Asian (having relatives in Korea....), you'll recognise that the Americans forced Japan to open up with gunships. Isn't trade all about goodwill, freewill, choices, and all other revolting happy-happy sounding phrases? Any idea Why "trade" is "so important" to involve gunboat diplomacy? That's why it is not a 3-bullet-point topic. It will lead to long readings and excursions to History (coloured by certain worldviews of course) and an unpleasant taste in the mouth. Also read Ivan Illich for more. There's another thread on this. Search the forums!
@Spence, Hopefully you've now realised that there's "trade", and then there's "TRADE"....that's another story for another day.
nor searched for the stuff I requested you to search? Hmmmm
nor listened to a Wade Davis lecture even though they are only 15 mins or so long? Hmmm...
You are selectively quoting a small para again and again and want a crisp 3 bullet point answer for why trade (= or <>) slavery. As Jacob pointed out the irony in another thread:
I love these ... [paraphrased]
Guest: "This is very important. The world is ending. Corporations have bought off the government..."
Anchor: "Okay, we only got a minute left before we break to commercials...some closing remarks?"
That is the problem!! My replies will get long because they are interconnected and need a lot of explanations and you will get bored and end with the usual one-liner "I did not see a clear statement of why trade is like slavery."
As I mentioned earlier, you have to convince yourself and not me goose feeding you.
Just one simple suggestion: Close your eyes and think when the tables are turned, with all of the USA supplying RMB 4.99 radios and Rs. 20 sports shoes and Rs. 100 tennis rackets to the East. Trade may not be so spectacular, acceptable or favourable to the West then. And for doing mental exercises like these, you HAVE to challenge yourselves with lot of thought experiments like these. That will take time from you and the results may not be pleasant for you.
I wish it was a three bulletpoint thing. At least I am unable to distill it to 3 bullet points. I have gone one step further. Since you persist in only dealing with links on the thread Here is the link to
story of stuff
You'll see at 4mins and 7mins as to why trade equates the notion of slavery.
As regards to your Korea argument:
The whole point of ERE is to move out of fixation with "stuff". So, anyone with no ERE bent will be socially conditioned to WANT to be in a place where they can just drive somewhere and buy a "shiny, new" replacement (Korea, India, Timbuktoo, Bhutan....). It is called TV and advertising.... Pull the plug on it, and GDP will move to less than 1% in most parts of the World.
@all,
This is for all the participating/non-participating readers: Go read that book in the link by borrowing it from your library, watch the video if it is there, or or if you cannot be bothered, search yahoo for a free copy/torrent of the book and film (I searched briefly and saw there are some available). Read it in full. Then you will understand the notion of using the word "slavery" (a.k.a becoming bonded, dependent, etc....), (not as chained workers in galleys or louisiana plantations workers).
Despite the rigorous climate and the harsh environment, they were satisfied with their lives before the wave of westernization came through the village. They respected their land and neighbors and tried to listen to the voices inside them.
We don’t have any poverty here. – Tsewang Pljor , 1975
If you could only help us Ladakhis, we’re so poor. – Tsewang Paljor 1983
These sentences are vivid examples of what rapid change has brought about in Ladakh. Westernization has divided the Ladakhis from the earth, from one another, and ultimately from themselves, all in the name of progress. They have come to realize how little they had and are now eager for more and more money to buy unnecessary things.
That passage is from that Korean reviewer's link above. From a culture of self-sufficiency that lived fine till "trade" and "opening up" came, they've now been reduced to post-consumerist "junkies"... Slavery is defined by many terms.... that's all.
If you're Asian (having relatives in Korea....), you'll recognise that the Americans forced Japan to open up with gunships. Isn't trade all about goodwill, freewill, choices, and all other revolting happy-happy sounding phrases? Any idea Why "trade" is "so important" to involve gunboat diplomacy? That's why it is not a 3-bullet-point topic. It will lead to long readings and excursions to History (coloured by certain worldviews of course) and an unpleasant taste in the mouth. Also read Ivan Illich for more. There's another thread on this. Search the forums!
@Spence, Hopefully you've now realised that there's "trade", and then there's "TRADE"....that's another story for another day.
@plain_simple -- thanks for clarifying your position. I see what you are getting at and do agree that trade can have negative consequences. However, I think trade also has many positives that outweigh the negatives. I still think that an unqualified statement that international trade is like slavery is an improper metaphor.
@Surio -- I usually don't follow video links on this blog because (1) I'm often reading this site from a device which can't access video and (2) I would rather read a well written argument in 30seconds than watch a long video.
I did finally get around to watching the story of stuff (at least to the 7 min mark or so). However if you go to gapminder.org and watch the country animation for (health & wealth) you'll see an amazing progress in the 20th century as both income and life expectancy increase *dramatically* for many developing nations. What is causing that if not trade?
Finally you wrote: "I have a PC that I am typing this on that was "made in China" " -- Now I am really confused. You spend considerable effort arguing that trade is bad and like slavery, yet you go ahead and engage in it. Can you explain why?
@Surio -- I usually don't follow video links on this blog because (1) I'm often reading this site from a device which can't access video and (2) I would rather read a well written argument in 30seconds than watch a long video.
I did finally get around to watching the story of stuff (at least to the 7 min mark or so). However if you go to gapminder.org and watch the country animation for (health & wealth) you'll see an amazing progress in the 20th century as both income and life expectancy increase *dramatically* for many developing nations. What is causing that if not trade?
Finally you wrote: "I have a PC that I am typing this on that was "made in China" " -- Now I am really confused. You spend considerable effort arguing that trade is bad and like slavery, yet you go ahead and engage in it. Can you explain why?
photoguy wrote:
> [.....]"I have a PC that I am typing this on that was
> "made in China" [.....]. Can you explain why?
You didn't read the entire parah, or maybe you didn't get it. You obviously don't get either irony (or sarcasm) either, by the looks of it. But, since you ask,
Brief interlude:
I am a no-egg-vegetarian and when I mention in a social gathering that I don't eat meat, I get a gleeful, "Wonderful, there's more for us" remark. Jokey or otherwise, that's an indicator of human nature. If I stop EVERYTHING and walk away someone else will simply suck up "my share of resources" and go "mine, all mine...muahaa ha ha ha..." So, what is the bloody point of my life of moderation if it only fattens someone else, and DOES NOT conserve the portion I decided to give up for our future generations?
I persist in staying within the loop despite my awareness of the skewedness of the system, for somewhat similar reasons that Jacob didn't just stop at retiring and chose to walk away with his savings, but he chose to put up a blog and now, this forum. The underlying theme: To participate within the system, yet promote the "other side" idea, to point out that it can work, and bring about voluntary change and reach critical mass.
A little more than 30 seconds, but that's one part.
@all,
I hope you have the time, perhaps you can read this which pre-empts such pressing "moral" rhetorical questions.
And I do believe that the end consumer has to assume some of the moral burden for what is done to produce and deliver the goods and services he benefits from. I also recognize in this intertwined world it is damn near impossible to extract yourself from all that is done to support our modern spoiled developed world lives. This computer is being run by electricity bought from TVA, most of which is generated by hydro plants powered by the dams that have impounded the entire Tennessee River and helped drive many species of fish to near extinction. Some of the rest of the watts come from coal ripped out of West Virginia by mountaintop removal. Pragmatism is necessary and inevitable. But it does not obliterate moral responsibility. Hell, I drive trucks for a living, burning the fossil fuels and dragging the consumer goods around the continent. But, my decision to drive a truck is not what puts the trucks on the road. It's a million people's decisions that they want their cheap plastic crap and they want it HERE and NOW that puts the trucks on the road. My choice to buy less cheap plastic crap will do more to take the trucks off the road than would my choice to surrender my CDL and quit working as a driver. Other decisions I can make as an individual will have a far greater impact than whether or not I drive a truck laden with cheap plastic crap for other people to buy.
And I already made the single biggest choice on that front when I got my tubes snipped insuring that I will never be responsible for the creation of another resource-swilling shit-exhuding human individual. So I keep on trucking and look for ways to do those other things that would make more of an immediate difference.
That's yet another (recovering) academic turned "ER" who's returned to the land. The rest of the post can be read here.
Other points will be replied to in turn.
> [.....]"I have a PC that I am typing this on that was
> "made in China" [.....]. Can you explain why?
You didn't read the entire parah, or maybe you didn't get it. You obviously don't get either irony (or sarcasm) either, by the looks of it. But, since you ask,
Brief interlude:
I am a no-egg-vegetarian and when I mention in a social gathering that I don't eat meat, I get a gleeful, "Wonderful, there's more for us" remark. Jokey or otherwise, that's an indicator of human nature. If I stop EVERYTHING and walk away someone else will simply suck up "my share of resources" and go "mine, all mine...muahaa ha ha ha..." So, what is the bloody point of my life of moderation if it only fattens someone else, and DOES NOT conserve the portion I decided to give up for our future generations?
I persist in staying within the loop despite my awareness of the skewedness of the system, for somewhat similar reasons that Jacob didn't just stop at retiring and chose to walk away with his savings, but he chose to put up a blog and now, this forum. The underlying theme: To participate within the system, yet promote the "other side" idea, to point out that it can work, and bring about voluntary change and reach critical mass.
A little more than 30 seconds, but that's one part.
@all,
I hope you have the time, perhaps you can read this which pre-empts such pressing "moral" rhetorical questions.
And I do believe that the end consumer has to assume some of the moral burden for what is done to produce and deliver the goods and services he benefits from. I also recognize in this intertwined world it is damn near impossible to extract yourself from all that is done to support our modern spoiled developed world lives. This computer is being run by electricity bought from TVA, most of which is generated by hydro plants powered by the dams that have impounded the entire Tennessee River and helped drive many species of fish to near extinction. Some of the rest of the watts come from coal ripped out of West Virginia by mountaintop removal. Pragmatism is necessary and inevitable. But it does not obliterate moral responsibility. Hell, I drive trucks for a living, burning the fossil fuels and dragging the consumer goods around the continent. But, my decision to drive a truck is not what puts the trucks on the road. It's a million people's decisions that they want their cheap plastic crap and they want it HERE and NOW that puts the trucks on the road. My choice to buy less cheap plastic crap will do more to take the trucks off the road than would my choice to surrender my CDL and quit working as a driver. Other decisions I can make as an individual will have a far greater impact than whether or not I drive a truck laden with cheap plastic crap for other people to buy.
And I already made the single biggest choice on that front when I got my tubes snipped insuring that I will never be responsible for the creation of another resource-swilling shit-exhuding human individual. So I keep on trucking and look for ways to do those other things that would make more of an immediate difference.
That's yet another (recovering) academic turned "ER" who's returned to the land. The rest of the post can be read here.
Other points will be replied to in turn.
I am very aware of that talk by Hans Rosling at TED.... Very energetic, very interesting. But my point is, all of that is mainly context.....context......context.....
If someone makes another sleek animation pointing out
1. car accident deaths in America since 1940s....
2. increase in prostate cancer since 1950......
3. increase in medical care costs around the world
4. increase in colon cancer within the developing world vs. colon cancer prevalence in the developed world since modernisation.....
I can go on, but you get the idea......
You will get a very sobering antidote to the gung-ho TED presentation.
In all this hoo-haa about infant mortality and lfe expectancy rubbish, people miss a critical question:
What's the point of keeping keeping someone alive,
a) at the expense of bleeding them dry though medical expenses (in most urban milieu --- West or elsewhere)
b) when your sole existence is going to be spent in a rapidly degrading, degenerating world full of insecurity, uncertainty and trying to make ends meet in soul-destroying conditions, because "World Bank" said so?
Have you read Oscar Wilde's The Soul of Man? I think that raises more critical points about misplaced "Western feel-goodness" about "creating jobs", "raising people from poverty"...etc...
The emotions of man are stirred more quickly than man's intelligence; and, as I pointed out some time ago in an article on the function of criticism, it is much more easy to have sympathy with suffering than it is to have sympathy with thought. Accordingly, with admirable, though misdirected intentions, they very seriously and very sentimentally set themselves to the task of remedying the evils that they see. But their remedies do not cure the disease: they merely prolong it. Indeed, their remedies are part of the disease.
They try to solve the problem of poverty, for instance, by keeping the poor alive; or, in the case of a very advanced school, by amusing the poor. But this is not a solution: it is an aggravation of the difficulty
So, finally, to finish it, it's all in context dude.... Whenever some egg-head goes, "Look, more and more Africans live today, than 20 years ago..... I think, "So what? So, we can move call centres or factories to minimise our outlay when Indian/Philippines wages rise too much?"
Too much BS surrounds this "sanctity and importance of human life", IMO!
P.S: The Oscar Wilde essay is a "Socialist" theme. So, for the record, I am not a Socialist, nor do I support the shape that Socialism has taken in the last generation! And I don't want the argument taking off on this "Socialism is hell" lines. Read it purely for the arguments made on the misplaced notions of "charity" and "alleviation" and "lifting from poverty" white-wash for more business as usual!
If someone makes another sleek animation pointing out
1. car accident deaths in America since 1940s....
2. increase in prostate cancer since 1950......
3. increase in medical care costs around the world
4. increase in colon cancer within the developing world vs. colon cancer prevalence in the developed world since modernisation.....
I can go on, but you get the idea......
You will get a very sobering antidote to the gung-ho TED presentation.
In all this hoo-haa about infant mortality and lfe expectancy rubbish, people miss a critical question:
What's the point of keeping keeping someone alive,
a) at the expense of bleeding them dry though medical expenses (in most urban milieu --- West or elsewhere)
b) when your sole existence is going to be spent in a rapidly degrading, degenerating world full of insecurity, uncertainty and trying to make ends meet in soul-destroying conditions, because "World Bank" said so?
Have you read Oscar Wilde's The Soul of Man? I think that raises more critical points about misplaced "Western feel-goodness" about "creating jobs", "raising people from poverty"...etc...
The emotions of man are stirred more quickly than man's intelligence; and, as I pointed out some time ago in an article on the function of criticism, it is much more easy to have sympathy with suffering than it is to have sympathy with thought. Accordingly, with admirable, though misdirected intentions, they very seriously and very sentimentally set themselves to the task of remedying the evils that they see. But their remedies do not cure the disease: they merely prolong it. Indeed, their remedies are part of the disease.
They try to solve the problem of poverty, for instance, by keeping the poor alive; or, in the case of a very advanced school, by amusing the poor. But this is not a solution: it is an aggravation of the difficulty
So, finally, to finish it, it's all in context dude.... Whenever some egg-head goes, "Look, more and more Africans live today, than 20 years ago..... I think, "So what? So, we can move call centres or factories to minimise our outlay when Indian/Philippines wages rise too much?"
Too much BS surrounds this "sanctity and importance of human life", IMO!
P.S: The Oscar Wilde essay is a "Socialist" theme. So, for the record, I am not a Socialist, nor do I support the shape that Socialism has taken in the last generation! And I don't want the argument taking off on this "Socialism is hell" lines. Read it purely for the arguments made on the misplaced notions of "charity" and "alleviation" and "lifting from poverty" white-wash for more business as usual!
The net result of "trade" as defined from the "Industrial Revolution" timeline has been forced upon societies that were previously self-sufficient and working fine without any powerlooms or "cuckoo clocks" or whatever, Thank you very much! This "so-called-trade" broke the backs of formerly proud civilisations and made them utterly dependent on "scraps" from "superior civilisations".
1. China was forced into what it is today through "Opium Wars"
2. Korea itself was forced into what it was by that famous "fake" Sherman boat incident.
3. I've commented on the "Opening of Japan" already.
4. The book that I posted also talks about it...
Ivan Illich speaks very eloquently about these "cultural racism" in his works. So does Ancient Futures! I will include small passages from "Ancient Futures" in another reply!
1. China was forced into what it is today through "Opium Wars"
2. Korea itself was forced into what it was by that famous "fake" Sherman boat incident.
3. I've commented on the "Opening of Japan" already.
4. The book that I posted also talks about it...
Ivan Illich speaks very eloquently about these "cultural racism" in his works. So does Ancient Futures! I will include small passages from "Ancient Futures" in another reply!
Some selected passages from that Ancient Futures to pique a semblance of an interest in anyone.
Author's remark:
Before I went to Ladakh, I used to assume that the direction of “progress” was somehow inevitable, not to be questioned. As a consequence, I passively accepted a new road through the middle of the park, a steel-and-glass bank where the two-hundred year old church had stood, a supermarket instead of the corner shop, and the fact that life seemed to get harder and faster with each day. I do not any more. Ladakh has convinced me that there is more than one path into the future and given me tremendous strength and hope.
Another one:
Until recent years, essential needs of the Ladakhis—housing, clothes, and food—were produced locally, by hand, and so a precious resource is communal labor, which is given generously for house construction (stones and mud, whitewashed with lime) or in harvest
season, or for tending herds. The high altitudes are greener than the valley floor, and the herds, taken to high pastures in the summer, are thereby kept away from the small barley fields and vegetable gardens. Livestock manure is gathered for cooking fuel and winter heating, and human waste, mixed with ash and earth, is spread upon the gardens; there is no pollution. Thus nothing is wasted and nothing thrown away; a use is found for everything.
In the very grain of Ladakhi life are the Buddhist teachings, which decry waste, and encourage the efficient husbanding of land and water—a frugality, as Helena Norberg-Hodge points out, that has nothing to do with stinginess (also decried in Buddhist teachings) but arises, rather, from respect and gratitude for the limited resources of the land. Water is drawn carefully from glacial brooks—one stream may be reserved for drinking, the next for washing. Indeed, it is pains-taking attention to each object and each
moment that makes possible this self-sustaining culture that nonetheless provides Ladakhis with much leisure time
Mainstream Western thinkers from Adam Smith to Freud and today’s academics tend to universalize what is in fact Western or industrial experience. Explicitly or implicitly, they assume that the traits they describe are a manifestation of human nature, rather than a product of industrial culture. This tendency to generalize from Western experience becomes almost inevitable as Western culture teaches out from Europe and North America to influence all the earth’s people. [...] What distinguishes Western culture is that it has grown so widespread and so powerful that it has lost a perspective on itself; there is no “other” with which to compare itself. It is assumed that everyone either is like us or wants to be.
Most Westerners have come to believe that ignorance, disease, and constant drudgery were the lot of pre-industrial societies, and the poverty, disease, and starvation we see in the developing world might at first sight seem to substantiate this assumption. The fact is, however, that many, if not most of the problems in the “Third World” today are to a great extent the consequences of colonialism and misguided development (**).
(**) Surio says: Keeping with the limited examples, Japan hadn't heard of Cholera until the "Opening of Japan". Thank you, "trade"?
Sorry, this is getting very long. Last passage:
Over the last decades, diverse cultures from Alaska to Australia have been overrun by the industrial monoculture. Today’s conquistadors are “development,” advertising, the media, and tourism. Across the world, “Dallas” beams into people’s homes and pinstripe suits are de rigueur. This year I have seen almost identical toy shops appear in Ladakh and in a remote mountain village of Spain. They both sell the same blonde, blue-eyed Barbie dolls and Rambos with machine guns.
The spread of the industrial monoculture is a tragedy of many dimensions. With the destruction of each culture, we are erasing centuries of accumulated knowledge, and as diverse ethnic groups feel their identity threatened, conflict and social breakdown almost
inevitably follow.
Increasingly, Western culture is coming to be seen as the normal way, the only way. And as more and more people around the world become competitive, greedy, and egotistical, these traits tend to be attributed to human nature. Despite persistent voices to the contrary, the dominant thinking in Western society has long assumed that we are indeed aggressive by nature, locked in a perpetual Darwinian struggle. The implications of this view for the way we structure our society are of fundamental importance. Our
assumptions about human nature, whether we believe in inherent good or evil, underlie our political ideologies and thus help to shape the institutions that govern our lives.
In our mainstream culture we blame innate human failings for our problems, while ignoring our own hand in the structural changes called “development” or “progress.”
We treat technological change as more natural than the changing weather, and seem locked into the belief that wherever scientific inventiveness goes, we must follow.
To balance the point of view somewhat, I am including this too:
This is not to deny that human nature has a dark side or that the process of development has brought benefits, but Ladakh has shown me that this process exacerbates greed, competition, and aggression while vastly increasing the potential for destruction. It was never previously possible to affect the climate, to poison the seas, or to eradicate forests, animal species, and cultures at the rate that we are doing today. The scale and the speed of our destructive power has never been so great. There is no historical precedent. Our situation is unique, and time is not on our side.
Author's remark:
Before I went to Ladakh, I used to assume that the direction of “progress” was somehow inevitable, not to be questioned. As a consequence, I passively accepted a new road through the middle of the park, a steel-and-glass bank where the two-hundred year old church had stood, a supermarket instead of the corner shop, and the fact that life seemed to get harder and faster with each day. I do not any more. Ladakh has convinced me that there is more than one path into the future and given me tremendous strength and hope.
Another one:
Until recent years, essential needs of the Ladakhis—housing, clothes, and food—were produced locally, by hand, and so a precious resource is communal labor, which is given generously for house construction (stones and mud, whitewashed with lime) or in harvest
season, or for tending herds. The high altitudes are greener than the valley floor, and the herds, taken to high pastures in the summer, are thereby kept away from the small barley fields and vegetable gardens. Livestock manure is gathered for cooking fuel and winter heating, and human waste, mixed with ash and earth, is spread upon the gardens; there is no pollution. Thus nothing is wasted and nothing thrown away; a use is found for everything.
In the very grain of Ladakhi life are the Buddhist teachings, which decry waste, and encourage the efficient husbanding of land and water—a frugality, as Helena Norberg-Hodge points out, that has nothing to do with stinginess (also decried in Buddhist teachings) but arises, rather, from respect and gratitude for the limited resources of the land. Water is drawn carefully from glacial brooks—one stream may be reserved for drinking, the next for washing. Indeed, it is pains-taking attention to each object and each
moment that makes possible this self-sustaining culture that nonetheless provides Ladakhis with much leisure time
Mainstream Western thinkers from Adam Smith to Freud and today’s academics tend to universalize what is in fact Western or industrial experience. Explicitly or implicitly, they assume that the traits they describe are a manifestation of human nature, rather than a product of industrial culture. This tendency to generalize from Western experience becomes almost inevitable as Western culture teaches out from Europe and North America to influence all the earth’s people. [...] What distinguishes Western culture is that it has grown so widespread and so powerful that it has lost a perspective on itself; there is no “other” with which to compare itself. It is assumed that everyone either is like us or wants to be.
Most Westerners have come to believe that ignorance, disease, and constant drudgery were the lot of pre-industrial societies, and the poverty, disease, and starvation we see in the developing world might at first sight seem to substantiate this assumption. The fact is, however, that many, if not most of the problems in the “Third World” today are to a great extent the consequences of colonialism and misguided development (**).
(**) Surio says: Keeping with the limited examples, Japan hadn't heard of Cholera until the "Opening of Japan". Thank you, "trade"?
Sorry, this is getting very long. Last passage:
Over the last decades, diverse cultures from Alaska to Australia have been overrun by the industrial monoculture. Today’s conquistadors are “development,” advertising, the media, and tourism. Across the world, “Dallas” beams into people’s homes and pinstripe suits are de rigueur. This year I have seen almost identical toy shops appear in Ladakh and in a remote mountain village of Spain. They both sell the same blonde, blue-eyed Barbie dolls and Rambos with machine guns.
The spread of the industrial monoculture is a tragedy of many dimensions. With the destruction of each culture, we are erasing centuries of accumulated knowledge, and as diverse ethnic groups feel their identity threatened, conflict and social breakdown almost
inevitably follow.
Increasingly, Western culture is coming to be seen as the normal way, the only way. And as more and more people around the world become competitive, greedy, and egotistical, these traits tend to be attributed to human nature. Despite persistent voices to the contrary, the dominant thinking in Western society has long assumed that we are indeed aggressive by nature, locked in a perpetual Darwinian struggle. The implications of this view for the way we structure our society are of fundamental importance. Our
assumptions about human nature, whether we believe in inherent good or evil, underlie our political ideologies and thus help to shape the institutions that govern our lives.
In our mainstream culture we blame innate human failings for our problems, while ignoring our own hand in the structural changes called “development” or “progress.”
We treat technological change as more natural than the changing weather, and seem locked into the belief that wherever scientific inventiveness goes, we must follow.
To balance the point of view somewhat, I am including this too:
This is not to deny that human nature has a dark side or that the process of development has brought benefits, but Ladakh has shown me that this process exacerbates greed, competition, and aggression while vastly increasing the potential for destruction. It was never previously possible to affect the climate, to poison the seas, or to eradicate forests, animal species, and cultures at the rate that we are doing today. The scale and the speed of our destructive power has never been so great. There is no historical precedent. Our situation is unique, and time is not on our side.