Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

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SimpleLife
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by SimpleLife »

RealPerson wrote:
OldPro wrote:Few if any parents want to have to rely on their children to support them in their old age. But they should not have to ask themselves, 'will they support me if I need supported.'
Great argument you give here OldPro. Just like there are parents who abandon their children, there are children who abandon their parents in need. Children, especially younger ones, really don't have free choice. The parents decide much for them. For older parents, that is different. If the parents chose to live unwisely and spend eveything they earned, is that really the child's problem to solve? The child has no real choices. The parent does. So the child-parent analogy doesn't hold water 100%.

In the end, it still is about love, not obligation. If I ever need help from my kids, I hope it will come from love, not from a sense of them owing me. And I surely hope that if I need help, it will not be because of my foolish decisions, but due to circumstances beyond my control.

Good analogy. I could see helping out with an expense here and there, or letting one move in with me if they were otherwise going to be homeless, but I don't see an obligation to be their retirement nest egg. I didn't have a choice as to whether I was born or not, but I refuse to be anymore of a slave than I already am (exorbitant taxes).

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Sclass
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Sclass »

OldPro you've certainly calmed me down with your advice and I'm thinking more clearly.

I did misunderstand the widow story. As an aside, giving away 1/4 of my house or $500 is equally unpleasant.

Perhaps I'm lying to myself, but I don't really care if things are fair. I actually hate fair games. Level playing fields have no potential. I like unfair games whether they are in my favor or not. Winning becomes a matter of choosing a side.

I just don't like letting someone use the time that I bought to support their own selfish lifestyle. Specifically my dad uses me as a free manager so he can maintain his household to his specifications. What's the use of polygamy when you sell the second home and institutionalize the second wife? You're back in boring monogamy land again.

I support this for recognition, love or obligation, not fairness. I actually have a deep love for my siblings and father. If I didn't acquiesce to our arrangement he would go to my sister or brother. And in all honesty I don't want them subjected to this madness. I love them. That's why it hurts me to see them back away as I burn.

So this thread has really helped me arrive here. I need to stop what I'm doing. I'm supporting my dad's vision of mom's elder care. None of this would have happened if I hadn't shown up. I quit. It's actually quite beautiful how you can easily take back what you have always owned. I need to stop doing what I'm doing and let somebody else do it. Somebody will undoubtedly step in for me.

Again my situation is different. Money isn't the problem. People are the problem.


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Sclass
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Sclass »

Thank you Ego. I was too young to understand Sartre when it was presented to me...or maybe YouTube is just a better venue for this info. Brilliant stuff.

teresajs
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by teresajs »

I understand the dilemma you're having Sclass. How much do we allow others to negatively influence our own retirement. In my case, my husband and I do not plan to have enough retirement income to meet our needs and to make a significant difference in the lives of our parents. We could, and would, help in modest amounts and ways from time-to-time. But our time (and money) have been hard-earned and hard-won for our own benefit, and it should be up to us to choose how to spend them.

Are we sacrificing now to earn life energy for ourselves, later, or to repay our parents' misspent youths?

In our case, the parents who will likely need/want more time and/or money have done, and continue to do, themselves no favors, despite our pleas. We have one parent who was set for a comfortable retirement and gambled away most of his money in just the last few years. Despite that, he and his wife are still living well (boat, expensive motorcycles, etc..). Do my husband and I owe it to him to sacrifice our own lifestyle, in retirement, when our family member runs out low on money? If he becomes ill, do we owe it to him to become his caregiver? Or do we owe it to ourselves to live the retirement we've planned for so long?

OldPro
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by OldPro »

"Yeah, sure, the monk put her down and walked away. Sclass is, day after day, carrying her. While his siblings do nothing. He's got every right to be pissed if he so chooses."

The monk helped her for as long as she needed help Ego. I would suggest to you that what Sclass is carrying day after day is not his Mother, it is his Father and siblings he is carrying on his back. They are what he needs to let go of, not his Mother. It isn't managing his Mother's care that is upsetting him, it is dwelling on the behaviour of his Father and siblings that is upsetting him. So which is it that needs to be dealt with?

In the monk analogy, the other monk couldn't let go of the issue of a broken vow. When the first monk said 'you are still carrying her', he was not referring to the other monk physically carrying the woman was he. He was referring to the other monk still carrying the issue of a broken vow derived from the carrying of the woman.

You seem to want to only see it from a very simplistic viewpoint and attach blame Ego. That will get Sclass absolutely nowhere. No one is arguing that it is unfair for his Father and siblings to lay it all on his shoulders to deal with. That is NOT the issue. The issue is how can Sclass deal with what IS? There are only two alternatives. Change it if possible or find a way to look at it in a different way and accept what IS.

He can be 'pissed if he so chooses' as you say or he can find a better answer than going around being pissed off all the time. Which would you rather do?

OldPro
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by OldPro »

Here is what I would do if it is as bad as Sclass says.

I would go to a lawyer and discuss the process and likelihood of getting legal custody/guardianship of my Mother. I would then begin that process and have the lawyer advise my Father and siblings of what I was doing. I would tell them that since they were not sharing responsibility for my Mother, that I intended to take FULL responsibility for her LEGALLY. I would tell them that when I got it, I intended to have her put in a good quality care home where she belongs and legally obtain financial support for that from all of them. If they won't share in the responsibility then they will get no say in what happens. I take the responsibility and I decide what will happen.

That is dealing with the issue. The issue being the behaviour of the Father and siblings. You step up to the plate and deal with the issue (enact change) OR you accept what IS and find a way to change how you view what is. What you do NOT do is sit and moan about it which only harms yourself and no one else.

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Sclass
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Sclass »

OldPro, that is excellent advice. Thank you. A wise family member and another friend gave me exactly the same advice two years ago.

You left out my favorite option- run away and be happy. It has worked for everyone else involved.

OldPro
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by OldPro »

Yet again you refer to 'everyone else'. FORGET everyone else and decide what YOU are doing or not doing. You can decide to DO something or decide to accept what IS and see it in a different and more positive way. It's YOUR choice.

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Sclass
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Sclass »

OldPro wrote:Yet again you refer to 'everyone else'. FORGET everyone else and decide what YOU are doing or not doing. You can decide to DO something or decide to accept what IS and see it in a different and more positive way. It's YOUR choice.
I've decided what to do. And, it isn't "nothing". Nothing would be maintaining the status quo. There is nothing like the present to quit. Thank you for the virtual shake ups...they've made me rethink what I really want out of this.

Mom is actually in good hands compared to most older people needing care. She lives in her home with caregivers providing bathing, changing, walking and three meals. Just the manager of the whole thing is AWOL recently. The source of funding is still strong and online. How bad is that? I think my situation is getting way off topic. We can start another thread called SClass's elder care journal if you'd like.

OP was do we owe parents time and money for elder care. My mom has care. Time to go to the farmers market and enjoy my retirement.

BlueNote
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by BlueNote »

I am not sure how I feel about this, but Jacob's logic is pretty good.

Essentially I think it mostly depends on your culture, how you were raised, the relationship with your parents and your personal preferences. For the most part I think children should provide care for their parents: shelter, food, medical care, companionship, etc. I'll leave the wiping of bums and other very specific matters as immaterial to the basic obligation.


I am adopted and my adoptive parents divorced. This leaves me with 4 potential sets of parents to take care of:

1. My birth Mother and her husband who I have known for about a decade.
2. My birth father who I have never met and do not plan on searching out.
3. My mother who raised me and my step father who mostly raised me.
4. My father who left my mother and basically just visited me 3 or 4 weeks a year until I became an adult.

Using Jacob's tallying method

1. kind and responsible (AFAIK)
2. ?
3. Kind to me (less kind to my wife) and sort of in a gray area on the line between irresponsible and responsible (getting worse with age)
4. Relatively kind and the most responsible relatives compared to the rest of the them.



Group 1: I don't mind pitching in to help out but I am betting my half blood siblings who were raised by them will do all the heavy lifting.

Group 2 : I don't even know if I would want to get to know him, he may not even know I exist. So this is just going to be a TBD for now.

Group 3: I'm an only child to my Mom. The plan with my Mom and Step Dad is to let them continue on their financial path as long as they can, this is what they want. My mom hates working but likes spending money , I worry when she retires soon that she'll burn through her government pension too quickly and my step dad will continue working into his 80's. Luckily they aren't so stupid with money as to have taken too much leverage or gotten caught in a get rich quick scheme (but theres' still time!). They suffer strongly from powdered butt syndrome so they won't listen to their CPA son who has no debt and will likely have a higher net worth than they do in 5 years. Therefore my wife and I have agreed to let them live the way they want until they can no longer do so. At that point I'll step in an have them declared dependents (shared with my step brother) and we'll take legal control over their assets. I'll put them in a home, manage their remaining net worth and ensure they're taken care of. Likely they'll be put into a government subsidized home with tons of baby boomer roommates. They'll probably complain a lot because they were removed from the lifestyle they were used to, they'll guilt me and try to make me feel bad and try to get moved to a fancy home. Their parents got to to go to fancy homes but then their parents also had fancy assets so they're going to be sour about that. I'm just going to make sure they're loved, visited, sheltered, fed properly, get proper exercise, given good medical care and have people and activity opportunities. Luckily Canada has a good social safety net so I'm not too worried about ERE being jeopardized.

Group 4: Dad and step mom have gold plated pensions and will probably have gold plated old folks homes, no worries they'll have enough money to pay for anything.

I don't know the future so we'll see how that goes.

EMJ
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by EMJ »

BlueNote wrote: I'll put them in a home,
You make that sound very simple. When the time comes I think you'll find reality is much, much more difficult.

I just put my mother who has dementia in a home. It's a very good home, and she is mostly ok there. Still it's hard. Loneliness, confusion, dependency - some of these things are part of dementia, some of them are due to old age. As the person responsible you will likely bear the brunt of all complaints and concerns.

BlueNote
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by BlueNote »

EMJ wrote:
BlueNote wrote: I'll put them in a home,
You make that sound very simple. When the time comes I think you'll find reality is much, much more difficult.

I just put my mother who has dementia in a home. It's a very good home, and she is mostly ok there. Still it's hard. Loneliness, confusion, dependency - some of these things are part of dementia, some of them are due to old age. As the person responsible you will likely bear the brunt of all complaints and concerns.
Indeed I will bear the brunt but frankly I know that none of my parents wants to come to live with me and my wife. They have only ever visited me once or twice in their lives and they hate where I live and how I live (in a small apartment as opposed to a house 3 times bigger than needed). If I put them in a care facility they'll complain that they miss home, but if I leave them at home then they will likely be a danger to themselves. I will hear complaints, they might be bitter about it. The actual move to the care home will be very difficult, it has sucked for all my grandparents. My grandmother from my Dad's side decided she didn't want to live anymore and just stopped eating and drinking liquids resulting in her death. She had a DNR request made and the hospital and family complied. She died on her own terms and I think moving into the home spurred her on.


I have had a few people tell me that because my parents changed my diapers I must change theirs, usually followed by a story of how they did it for their parents. I think that's fine but it's certainly not the one and only way of doing things good and right by your family. I have no doubt that the concrete reality will be much harder to bear than this almost purely theoretical discussion, perhaps I will change my mind and look back on this thread as the rantings of an inexperienced childless young adult.

BlueNote
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by BlueNote »

jacob wrote: (I realize this is a very culturally determined issue. For example, filial responsibility is an extremely strong value in Asian cultures.)

When I was living Japan I learned that there was an extreme amount of pressure on the eldest sons daughter to take care of the sons mother and father during old age until they died. As a result of the arrangement the son would get all the assets, including the house, when they died. It's a very patriarchal society so when people get divorced there the assets generally all go to the men, as a result the woman almost all keep secret stashes of cash just in case this happens (interesting phenomenon called Hesokuri). Also as a result of these arrangements eldest sons have a much harder time landing a spouse because, rightly so, many woman don't want to be saddled into taking care of their inlaws until they die.

When someone starts talking about the filial piety of Asians I am reminded of how it really works for the Japanese. As for the other Asian cultures I would imagine similar economically rational behaviour is present. I am sure there are tons of Asians who take filial piety seriously and honour it totally. However in my experience people , being people, tend to find a way to override silly (outdated) externally imposed rules while still finding a way to appear to live within those rules.

George the original one
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by George the original one »

It's been my experience that old folks will complain no matter what if complaining was already a way of life for them.

OldPro
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by OldPro »

It's been my experience (with more years of experience than I expect you have George) that ANYONE will complain no matter what if complaining was already a way of life for them.

Being older than you has no signifigance whatsoever.

steveo73
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by steveo73 »

My answer to this question is yes however hopefully not financially. My parents are in their early 70's and I expect them to require help from me sometime within the next 10 years (its hard to tell). Hopefully by then I'll be retired and I can spend some more time with them.

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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by fiby41 »

Sagaras by Vinayak Savarkar wrote: जरि उध्दरणीं व्यय न तिच्या हो साचा I हा व्यर्थ भार विद्येचा
If it can not be used [by me] for her [mother's] upliftment, then this is a futile burden of education
OTOH, if they are too old to take care of themselves, cannot do anything they enjoy and that which brings them happiness, and are a burden to society and themselves; why are they living for again?

I'd ask them to k̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶s̶e̶l̶v̶e̶s̶ perform self sacrifice by the highest Yogic tradition of fasting unto death and give them the linked document for reading to boost morale and provide social proof. Ditto with myself.

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Sclass
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Sclass »

Thought I'd update this. We are going on eight years (?) since my mom's diagnosis with dementia. Starting with memory loss to late stage dementia today.

Mom has lost the ability to regularly swallow and eat. It just went from gobbling food two months ago to slow spoon feeding liquid in a blink. She was diagnosed with pneumonia last week. Antibiotics aren't doing much as far as I can tell. It's dementia's death knell.

I'm at a burn rate of $14,000 a month for just her care now. I cannot even remember all the names of the helpers anymore. Too many shifts. Her money. My management. I don't think it'll need to last much longer so I've made the tough decision to open up the spigot. Hard for an ERE type.

I stayed over a few nights. I'm so tired. I want it to end but I want her to survive at the same time. Many have been where I'm standing.

Guilt. Anxiety. Relief. I'm feeling it all right now. I'm back in my own home tonight.

Anger and disappointment at my family for leaving this to me. They say the obligatory "sclass what can I do to help" but they refuse to offer for more than two hours on a Saturday afternoon. "I think I can come up Saturday ...would this help Sclass?" I get silence when I say I need somebody to move into the home and manage this thing while I recharge. They just sat there in silence over the phone as I cried "I cannot take this anymore." They don't care what happens to me so long as they can keep their lives walled off from this.

My dad still silently controls everything. At least there is money. I need to get on top of the new outflows.

Sadly this will end soon I hope/fear. I will start burning money and we will see how long this will last. It'll take more time than she has to draw down to zero. I think she has a year. Neither is a comforting thought though.

My emotional energy is burning to zero. This is really hard. My SO said I've been struggling with this from crisis to crisis for a few years. I'm looking forward to closing the book.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Nobody really means "is there anything I can do." They just think its the right thing to say. I would bet your family is also torn between guilt and selfishness just like you are. But they also have gratefulness that they have you to deal with all the hard stuff. So they can justify to themselves that they didn't *really* abandon your mother. When she is finally gone, it will be up to you to decide whether you want to hold their behavior against them and push them away, or to keep them in your life.

Also, I can't speak for your mother, but I would not want to be a financial and emotional burden on my family. I can imagine that she might hate the idea of all of her family members remembering her as a chore who can't feed or clean herself. I think, in other cultures and earlier times, people did care for their parents until death. But they did not spend down the family's savings on feeding tubes, antibiotics, and nursing care. They let nature take its course.

I don't know if any of that is helpful, but I'm sure your stress and sleep deprivation makes it hard to think clearly. So , just another perspective.

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