The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

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7Wannabe5
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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:10 am

Since I teach young children in a low income district where 30 different languages are spoken, I deal with this all day long. For instance, yesterday a little African-American boy told me that a little Albanian immigrant girl had called him a "chicken-head." Since the little Albanian girl, who looked like nobody had combed her hair in a week, was the worst behaved child in the class, I believed this to be true, but I just did what I do with every case of reported injustice or minor abuse, which is I told the purported offender to say "I'm sorry" and then I instructed both of the children to shake hands. This actually works most of the time. I do not have the time to hear the evidence and, in fact, fairly frequently when extremely stressed and trying to maintain safety and order, I will tell a child whom I believe to be "playing victim" something like "I don't care. Get back in line." I observed that one of the better teachers was training her group to use the universal arm signal for STOP (out with palm up) and say "Please, do not do that." to protect their own personal space before informing her about a problem with another child, so now I've started doing that too. OTOH, the old school gym teacher, acting pretty much in utter defiance of modern anti-bullying policy, still enforces and yells out the rule "No tattle-tales!" My main point here being that the culture of victimhood is a luxury item only affordable in times of affluence because "cops" cost money and "judges" cost even more.

GandK
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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by GandK » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:01 am

Warning: the above link leads to a rabbit hole of outstanding opinion pieces on human thought, all daisy-chained together! :D

I thought that article was great; I thought one of the referenced articles, The Coddling of the American Mind, was even better. I could easily go off on fifteen different tangents about both, but as it relates to "why good people are divided by politics and religion," the latter article said:
Republicans and Democrats have never particularly liked each other, but... negative feelings have grown steadily stronger, however, particularly since the early 2000s. Political scientists call this process “affective partisan polarization,” and it is a very serious problem for any democracy. As each side increasingly demonizes the other, compromise becomes more difficult. A recent study shows that implicit or unconscious biases are now at least as strong across political parties as they are across races.

So it’s not hard to imagine why students arriving on campus today might be more desirous of protection and more hostile toward ideological opponents than in generations past. This hostility, and the self-righteousness fueled by strong partisan emotions, can be expected to add force to any moral crusade. A principle of moral psychology is that “morality binds and blinds.” Part of what we do when we make moral judgments is express allegiance to a team. But that can interfere with our ability to think critically. Acknowledging that the other side’s viewpoint has any merit is risky—your teammates may see you as a traitor.

...

Attempts to shield students from words, ideas, and people that might cause them emotional discomfort... are bad for American democracy, which is already paralyzed by worsening partisanship. When the ideas, values, and speech of the other side are seen not just as wrong but as willfully aggressive toward innocent victims, it is hard to imagine the kind of mutual respect, negotiation, and compromise that are needed to make politics a positive-sum game.

enigmaT120
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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by enigmaT120 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:15 pm

At least they aren't having duels to the death lately. Though I think that would be cool.

Edit: I meant politicians, not college students.

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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by jennypenny » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:19 pm

Strange podcast with Sam Harris (surprise -- I'm not a fan :P ) but I enjoyed it. Haidt isn't on until twenty minutes because Harris spends some time discussing his troubles with Salon.

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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by jennypenny » Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:22 pm

I keep thinking about Haidt's comments near the end about PC culture and helicopter parenting. Makes me wonder if I should have posted this in the PC thread. Is he right? Is it really the natural result of helicopter parenting?

Dragline
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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by Dragline » Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:57 pm

Partially, but I think its better explained by generational theory and mimetic theory. The Greatest Generation was also overprotected and developed a social orthodoxy (of the 1950s), which is what the Boomers then rebelled against. Millennials are creating their own social orthodoxy which will dominate the culture of the 2020s and 2030s, and eventually will be rebelled against by their children. The two guys speaking are the bitter Gen-Xers I mentioned in another thread. They should expect more of this orthodoxy/mono-culture in the future, not less.

If you have read mimetic theory, you would recognize the claims to victimhood as simply a reflection of the Christian ideal (all people have value as individuals), bridged into secular thought by John Locke, but is the principal "aspiration" of Western societies (opposed by Nietzsche). Harari also touches on this when he compares the Code of Hammurabi (individuals only have value based on their place in society) and Locke.

We have reached a point where almost no major action is possible without first identifying the victims that are being protected. There is a constant rush to claim victimhood, justified or not, so as to justify an exercise of power, justified or not.

The intersection of Haidt's ideas and mimetic theory are explored here: http://www.prospectingmimeticfractals.c ... previous/7

"But here is where it becomes more interesting, and where Nietzsche and Girard depart from one another. Girard takes the view that by upholding the rights of individuals not to be scapegoated by their communities, Christianity is in fact, the destroyer of religions and leads directly to current Western culture, which is fixated on individualism and the rights of victims."


I can't say I have much sympathy for university professors, because they are used to whining and getting their way. Now they are feeling constrained. What goes around comes around.

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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by jennypenny » Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:09 pm

Sorry, I posted the wrong link.

Here's the link to the Harris/Haidt podcast ... https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/evolving-minds

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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by jennypenny » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:52 am

Recent discussion between Haidt and Jordan Peterson ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IBegL_V6AA

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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by jennypenny » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:39 am

Jonathan Haidt was on Joe Rogan's podcast this week discussing PC culture, antifragility, problems at universities, social media, and how kids are physically safe but virtually unsafe ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG6HbWw2RF4

Kriegsspiel
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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:51 pm

jennypenny wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:39 am
Jonathan Haidt was on Joe Rogan's podcast this week discussing PC culture, antifragility, problems at universities, social media, and how kids are physically safe but virtually unsafe ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG6HbWw2RF4
Good stuff.

Jin+Guice
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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by Jin+Guice » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:45 am

I'm glad to come across a (revived) old thread on this book. I read this book about two months ago and it is excellent. Haidt puts words to a problem I'd identified but never been able to formulate properly, and then offers a compelling cause of this problem. I join the chorus of those strongly recommending this book and I enjoyed reading others thoughts on the book.

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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by jennypenny » Thu May 02, 2019 12:20 pm

From The Atlantic (not Haidt but relevant): Conservatives Have a Different Definition of ‘Fair’. I like his point about Social Security hitting a sweet spot between the two camps.

For some reason, it also made me think back to some marriage issues mentioned on the forum and how conflicts might arise if partners define 'fair' differently.

Kriegsspiel
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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu May 02, 2019 5:39 pm

I think it's telling that people focus all their rage on "student loans" instead of focusing their screeching on the universities themselves that are charging so much to go there.

Universities, in general, seem like such pussies that they'll cave and give in to any demands students make. I bet they'd fire all of their extraneous admin personnel, cancel every extra-curricular activity and sport that doesn't bring in more money than they cost, stop constructing new luxurious dorms and fitness centers, pare down the dining hall menus, get rid of half (or more?) of their classes and professors, and charge much less in tuition if students were protesting for that.

It's clear why they aren't.

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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by unemployable » Thu May 02, 2019 6:07 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 5:39 pm
I think it's telling that people focus all their rage on "student loans" instead of focusing their screeching on the universities themselves that are charging so much to go there.
Or questioning whether college is the best choice in the first place.

Gilberto de Piento
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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by Gilberto de Piento » Fri May 03, 2019 8:56 am

Universities, in general, seem like such pussies that they'll cave and give in to any demands students make. I bet they'd fire all of their extraneous admin personnel, cancel every extra-curricular activity and sport that doesn't bring in more money than they cost, stop constructing new luxurious dorms and fitness centers, pare down the dining hall menus, get rid of half (or more?) of their classes and professors, and charge much less in tuition if students were protesting for that.
It seems like students and parents want all that stuff more than they want cheaper education. Or they can't see the connection.

George the original one
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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by George the original one » Fri May 03, 2019 10:55 am

Well that devolved quickly. For some reason we went from the general case of "what's fair?" to college loans specifically.

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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by unemployable » Fri May 03, 2019 11:01 am

George the original one wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 10:55 am
Well that devolved quickly.
Actually it took five years

CS
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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by CS » Fri May 03, 2019 11:10 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 5:39 pm
Universities, in general, seem like such pussies..
Please explain how this works with the female anatomy? I don't understand.

Do you go into the building of a university and imagine that you are having sex with a giant vagina? Does it bake you for 9 months and then spit you out with a degree?

Jean
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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by Jean » Fri May 03, 2019 1:15 pm

What do young Cats have to do with female Anatomy? I don't understand.

ZAFCorrection
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Re: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by ...

Post by ZAFCorrection » Fri May 03, 2019 1:26 pm

@CS

My undergrad:
https://news.ucmerced.edu/news/2015/%E2 ... pirit-song

They make you walk through it as part of the graduation ceremony.

Edited for link that actually works.

Edited again for 100% more mansplaining:

The question is "why is being a pussy bad?"

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