Finn's three year plan

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Finn
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Finn's three year plan

Post by Finn »

Hello all,

I've been lurking around the boards for quite some time, on an on-and-off basis. I first discovered ERE when I was still studying, and saving any money seemed like a far off proposition (I was actually withdrawing a moderate amount of student loans at the time). This must have been around 2007, before 2008, because I can remember being knowledgeable about these things at the time of the crash.

The way I found ERE was actually through the PO crowd, which I was reading out of pure interest. So at the time of the crash, I was debating to myself whether or not the world will pull through after the big financial crisis, and whether I should just forgo a career altogether and withdraw into my grandparent's former homestead :lol: Maybe it wouldn't have been such a bad idea in any case! I would probably be FI already.

However, there was some definite "will I make it in the work world" anxiety mixed in with that. I'm now fairly convinced that the financial world will almost always pull through *eventually*, and other sectors of society are much more fragile (higher education, for example, has been the subject of brutal budget cuts here in Finland). When things get rough, it's time to buy.

I began my career (academic) seven years ago, and I made my first index fund investments in the same year. Over the next few years, I saved a little out of my *very* measly pay. Making this even more difficult was the fact that my work has been very precarious, with the shortest contract being only one month long. I did go ahead and get a mortgage anyway, because here in Finland it is still a very valid proposition if you want to accumulate any kind of wealth (part of the interest is tax deductible, so I get 800 euros back every year, and in my city a rental will cost you the same amount per month as paying for a mortgage. My interest for my home is currently 0,79 per cent, and for my rental, it's 1,8. The interest is variable, but the monthly payment is fixed). Currently, my first apartment houses tenants, so it's been working out great for me.

Then life happened. I grew up, went through some tumultuous times between 28-31, and I stopped putting money into the funds, but continued paying the mortgage (yay for forced savings). Lately, I've snapped out of this, and begun regular investing into index funds again. I will explore other investment options in the coming months, but for now, rentals+indexes+cash it is.

This story, I think, fits pretty well with my strong INTP personality. I do have some trouble with plan adherence, because the world is full of interesting ideas and things to learn! I'm always learning *something*, though, which can be very positively harnessed if I'm a part of a community that keeps me accountable and engaged. That's why I think this journal is a good idea. Why now, though?

Well, I'm about to sign a three-year contract (field is between design and STEM), and I do want to make the best of those three years, even if reaching FI is not possible within that time frame. After all, I might not ever get another project funded, or I might decide that I want to do something else. Importantly, I do have some other aspirations in life as well, that I would love to work on.

I think there's also some even deeper psychological reasons for why I've been drawn to (E)RE that have to do with the fact that I've always felt like I'm in a precarious situation in life and society anyway despite my middle-class upbringing. As I've grown older, I have also grown to appreciate saving money/accumulating assets more and more as a way to secure my own position in society. When I was younger, I was busy developing a sociable and likable personality, in spite of my INTx-ness, to ensure I fit in with society. Now, at 33, I'm well aware of the fact that whatever I do, I will never be liked by all (nobody is). If I were to reach FIRE, I would probably feel like I "won" in life. I'm not sure if that's a "good" aspect of my personality. Certainly doesn't make be as likable any more! But truth is more important that being likable.

Entangled with all of this is the sobering truth that my legal age of retirement is 67-70 years old. This fact alone makes me eager to accumulate all the resources I possibly can. Frankly, I don't even think I'll live that long. I'd like to be retired in 5-7 years, but that would entail taking some added risks, and since we're already leveraged with the mortgages, I don't think I'm willing to take much more risk. A viable option would be to come up with a second income stream (or third, the rentals are one, I guess).

Within the next few months, I hope to formulate some sort of a plan. Or not a plan... a system of saving and investing that mostly takes care of itself. I think with my personality, that's my best bet. ;) Tips, views and opinions are welcomed!

Gilberto de Piento
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by Gilberto de Piento »

What is the PO crowd?

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Viktor K
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by Viktor K »

Inspiring first journal post. Looking forward to more.

suomalainen
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by suomalainen »

Ha ha ha, nyt meita on kolme (plus Rouva)! Tervetuloa.

Finn
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by Finn »

Thanks, everyone + kiitos, suomalainen!

wolf
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by wolf »

Hi Finn. Such a great first post. I am also in my 30s and I am looking forward to read more about your journey. I can totally follow your thoughts, ideas and mindset. I also want to be FI(RE) within the next eight years. So, stay motivated, keep saving, take care!

Finn
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by Finn »

Thanks, wolf, I think there's a lot of like-minded people on this forum -- in fact, that's a big part of my fascination with the larger FI/(E)RE community. As well as in-depth conversations on various subjects, this community has the absolute best book recommendations! This week alone I have started reading Bodie, Kane & Marcus' "Investments", which is a college econ textbook.Yesterday I also listened to the Mad Fientists' podcast, and his guest recommended the book "Thinking in Bets: Making Smarter Decisions When You Don't Have All the Facts", by Annie Duke, a former psych major and successful poker professional. I hope it'll be a very concrete introduction into practical game theory and on decision making processes.

On an unrelated note, I've also started learning Total Immersion swimming, and that's going, well, swimmingly :D I think the way freestyle swimming is broken down into general principles intellectually, and then learned and practiced continually in a very concrete, broken-down-into-steps way makes a lot of sense to me. I have to approach the physical endeavours through the mind, otherwise it's just not engaging for me.

Swimming does tie into FIRE in some ways though. ERE led me fairly quickly to the realization that time is the most important resource in life: it is what life is, and money only will enable me to spend that time in better and better ways. So, in order to spend time more wisely, I have (over the past years) gone through my priorities, and unsurprisingly, health comes out on top. Good health is the #1 retirement strategy that produces not only outsize results, but the basis on which everything else rests. Over the last couple of months, I've been able to go to the gym 2-3 times a week, and now I've added swimming 2-3 times to that. So that's an investment of time I'm making before anything else can be added (e.g another income stream).

SnailMeister4000
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by SnailMeister4000 »

Finn wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:48 am
I've also started learning Total Immersion swimming
That's great! I also got into TI swimming a couple of years ago in preparation for long distance triathlons. It just makes swimming so easy and pleasant, it's amazing. You just need a book, a little bit of patience and willingness to start practicing with very simple drills, and in a relatively short time something that seems awkward and exhausting becomes super pleasant. And all that with very little/inexpensive gear involved. No need for gadgets, classes etc. Because of that, it's definitely one of my most favorite skill books. I can also recommend it to everyone.

Are you still practicing the basic drills, or have you gone to "proper" swimming? Are you (planning on) doing any open water swimming?

Finn
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by Finn »

@SnailMeister4000, wow, you sound like a serious athlete! I’m doing the basic drills still, but I’m already watching and reading about open water, because I live by the sea, in a place that also has a large river and smaller lakes in biking distance! I spent my childhood summers swimming, snorkeling and diving in Lapland lakes, so open water also just feels very compelling to me.

How long did it take for you to start swimming for real?

The materials are excellent, we do the parnered excercises as well, it really helps to have someone look at your form.

The TI book should be read by everyone, including non-swimmers, it’s a great philosophy for life!

SnailMeister4000
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by SnailMeister4000 »

Finn wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:14 pm
wow, you sound like a serious athlete
Ha! Not really. I jut wanted to know what I can do/prove it to myself, so I got into long and ultra distance triathlons and runs for a few years. But I mainly competed with myself, and I haven't participated in any events for a while. I still go running , cycling, swimming, XC skiing etc. regularly, but just for the fun of it. Plus, as I am a paper pusher currently who doesn't get any exercise at work, it helps venting and reduces the urge to strangle a colleague or three.
Finn wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:14 pm
How long did it take for you to start swimming for real?
I don't remember exactly. One, two months maybe? To be honest, I skipped a few basic drills before I started, as I was a bit impatient, but I always kept practicing the basic drills in addition to complete front crawl. Plus, I also did some breast stroke in the very beginning in addition to the basic balance/technique drills to get some exercise. Altogether, I got from swimming no front crawl at all to swimming 4km in about seven months or so. But then, there is a swimming pool very close to the office where I work, so I could go every lunch break. And sometimes I went swimming in a lake in the early morning before work. I had/have hardly any social and no family obligations, so it was/is fairly easy for me to find the time to do what I like.
Finn wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:14 pm
I spent my childhood summers swimming, snorkeling and diving in Lapland lakes, so open water also just feels very compelling to me.
Nice! You certainly have a lot of water bodies in Finland, so it's a very suitable sport there. Albeit, your waters are often a bit chilly, aren't they? I am still thinking I should get used to open water swimming without wetsuit, for the health benefits and hardening up a bit. Maybe I should develop the inner Finn in me. Sisu and all that.

I've been two Finland twice for holiday, canoeing in Kolovesi NP in September and kayaking in Linnansaari in October. I really liked the landscape. And the people. Nicely introverted and direct, with little to no BS. I could imagine moving to Finland one day, if it wasn't for your language. So it'll probably be Sweden or Norway instead... :D

Do you also go XC skiing? Do you live more in the South, or in the North?

Finn
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by Finn »

SnailMeister4000 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:45 pm
Plus, as I am a paper pusher currently who doesn't get any exercise at work, it helps venting and reduces the urge to strangle a colleague or three.
Tell me about it! :D I find a mid-day gym workout really takes the edge off.
SnailMeister4000 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:45 pm
I don't remember exactly. One, two months maybe?
That's pretty much what I expected. Soon I'll have a month-long vacation, and will probably go swimming almost every day. I'd love to be able to swim for a mile or so in the river before it gets too cold in the fall!
SnailMeister4000 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:45 pm
Nice! You certainly have a lot of water bodies in Finland, so it's a very suitable sport there. Albeit, your waters are often a bit chilly, aren't they? I am still thinking I should get used to open water swimming without wetsuit, for the health benefits and hardening up a bit. Maybe I should develop the inner Finn in me. Sisu and all that.
Sisu all the way! The waters are chilly, but you get used to it in about 5-10 minutes, and if you keep moving, you won't get cold. Try it maybe after swimming for about 15mins in your wetsuit? I do have a wetsuit from my kayaking days, but it's not necessary here. The sun shines 24hrs a day right now, so the waters are fine. Actually, it's nice to go in the evening/night for a swim. It's very serene, and the water feels warmer because the air is cooler. Ice hole swimming is a thing here too, and there's a publicly maintained ice hole nearby where I live, but I haven't been brave enough to try it. You can just power through it, but a good way to learn is to go swimming every day throughout the summer and the fall, and just keep doing that year-round. Eventually, you just go for a short dips in the ice hole. I bet it's awesome to be so adapted. When spring arrives and you can be swimming in cold May waters like it's nothing!
SnailMeister4000 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:45 pm
I've been two Finland twice for holiday, canoeing in Kolovesi NP in September and kayaking in Linnansaari in October. I really liked the landscape. And the people. Nicely introverted and direct, with little to no BS. I could imagine moving to Finland one day, if it wasn't for your language. So it'll probably be Sweden or Norway instead... :D

Do you also go XC skiing? Do you live more in the South, or in the North?
It's a very ancient landscape, it's fun to think how those rocks and the shapes of the lakes were formed during/right after the ice age. And if you don't mind people who avoid eye contact at all costs, Finland is a lovely place! The language is a nightmare, so we don't really expect foreigners to learn Finnish :D But Norway is great too, the mountains and fjords are a sight to behold. I'd like to live there for a while myself!

Funny you should ask about skiing, I'm planning to re-start XC skiing next winter! I haven't done it in a long time, but I was into it when I was younger. We used to do XC skiing as a family (it's the only sport my father deemed worthy of doing. We were not an athletic bunch!). Right now I'm only doing downhill skiing. I bought some very reasonably priced carving skis from a Swiss online shop. I intend to use those for at least 10 years, so they're a good value. If I ever reach FI, I'd certainly consider becoming a ski bum for a season!

I'm a Northerner all the way, I don't think I could be happy living in the South of Finland. :D This is a mid-size city with extensive biking and XC skiing tracks inside the city that are publicly maintained. There's also some decent (downhill) skiing resorts 2-3 hours' drive away from the city. The only thing I miss is *real* mountains. I loved visiting Vancouver because it had all the same great elements we have here, but just... bigger and more dramatic!

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TheWanderingScholar
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by TheWanderingScholar »

Tere, soumi!

-Amerikka elab Eestis
;)

But yes I have lived in Turku, Finland for a year and enjoyed my time there.

Finn
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by Finn »

Tere, Eestimaa! :D I’ve been to Tallinn twice, had a great time. Estonia would be a great place to ERE to, I think, the people are friendly, the old manor houses are beautiful, and the COL is slightly lower. Although it’s creeping upwards, isn’t it?

SnailMeister4000
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by SnailMeister4000 »

@Finn When I replied to your post where you mentioned that you started Total Immersion swimming, I had totally forgotten about your first post, where you state that you are an INTP. In MBTI speak, intraverted thinking is my dominant function as well. Maybe that's why it appeals to us so much. The clue might be in the abbreviation: TI swimming. :D
Finn wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:01 am
SnailMeister4000 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:45 pm
I am still thinking I should get used to open water swimming without wetsuit, for the health benefits and hardening up a bit. Maybe I should develop the inner Finn in me. Sisu and all that.
Sisu all the way! The waters are chilly, but you get used to it (...)
I think I'll give it a shot starting later this year, just before the local lake and river start getting colder again, and then see how far I can get used to the decreasing temperatures. I am currently trying to develop my equanimity towards unpleasant (and too pleasant) sensations anyway, so it would be fully in line with that goal too. I'll keep you updated!
Finn wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:01 am
Ice hole swimming is a thing here too, and there's a publicly maintained ice hole nearby where I live, but I haven't been brave enough to try it.


That's something I'd like to try one day. Here is some inspiration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6plKMU0tTTk (I am a great admirer of Tor Eckhoff's work, btw :D)
Finn wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:01 am
SnailMeister4000 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:45 pm
I could imagine moving to Finland one day, if it wasn't for your language. So it'll probably be Sweden or Norway instead... :D

But Norway is great too, the mountains and fjords are a sight to behold. I'd like to live there for a while myself!
I find the Norwegian landscape quite attractive as well, even though I have only seen a small part of it IRL so far. Apart from work related trips to Oslo I've been to Norway only once for holiday, hiking in the Finnmark from Alta to Karasjok and back in September. A bit surreal and moon like, but nicely rugged. I could imagine living there for a while too. Growing crops other than furred or scaled ones would probably be a bit difficult that far North, though. But hey, with climate change new agricultural opportunities might arise in the North. :D
Finn wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:01 am
Funny you should ask about skiing, I'm planning to re-start XC skiing next winter! I haven't done it in a long time, but I was into it when I was younger. We used to do XC skiing as a family (it's the only sport my father deemed worthy of doing. We were not an athletic bunch!)
Awesome! I fully understand your father. XC skiing in a nice winter landscape is so great for body and mind! It's one of the reasons that I would always like to stay in a country with high likelihood of snow cover in winter long term.

Anyway, I think I'll leave it at that for now. I don't want to hijack your journal tooo much. :D

SnailMeister4000
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by SnailMeister4000 »

SnailMeister4000 wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:34 am
@Finn When I replied to your post where you mentioned that you started Total Immersion swimming, I had totally forgotten about your first post, where you state that you are an INTP. In MBTI speak, intraverted thinking is my dominant function as well. Maybe that's why it appeals to us so much. The clue might be in the abbreviation: TI swimming. :D
Having thought about what I wrote there, I think it is not correct, as following TI swimming instructions would work outside an introverted thinking framework. It's probably more extraverted thinking, as it's valid regardless of ones system thinking. Anyway, cool story, even if it's not true...

SnailMeister4000
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by SnailMeister4000 »

SnailMeister4000 wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:06 pm
Anyway, cool story, even if it's not true...
And that is probably the main limitation of introverted thinking...

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TheWanderingScholar
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by TheWanderingScholar »

@Finn:
Yeah the CoL is slowly rising which is annoying.

And jobs in my field are hard to come by for a foreigner.

Finn
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by Finn »

@SnailMeister4000, I think the Ti function (drawn towards knowledge, rationality, etc.) and the Ne functions (interest in patterns, underlying principles, and ideas to construct theories and frameworks) explain our fascination of TI swimming very well :D This approach works especially well in regards to swimming because the physical principles of moving a human body through water are always the same. This is not true of other pursuits were results are culturally dependent/not measurable.

Terry L. has also coupled this with an inner philosophy where an attitude of constant improvement is combined with the belief that swimming is not about some badly defined, woowoo quality like innate talent, but about applied knowledge.

@TWS, really, can I ask which field do you work in? I'm not about to leave academia, just curious :D

*

Okay, back to financial issues!

I have some trouble trying to calculate finances in the general FIRE community models, because Finland has a pension system. I'm fine with this even though it does restrict my options somewhat. So, unbeknownst to the stupid young me, I've been saving for retirement from the age of 24. That's great, so far I've earned a pension of ~340 euros per month. What happens every month is that 6,85 percent of my salary is automatically put towards my pension. My employer has to match this by 17,5%! That's a lot of money that's hidden from view. As I understand it, if I were in the US, my salary would be 1,175 times my current salary, and I would save some of this money in a 401k.

Currently, then, I save 24% towards my pension/normal retirement. That great, since I've saved a chunk of retirement money already at age 33. I think this is great social stability in general. But I can't access that money until I'm at least 67 years old (well, there is one way to get partial access in your sixties). Couple this with the fact that a part of my salary goes towards unemployment insurance and national health insurance, and the picture that emerges is somewhat different to the one that is usually discussed in the FIRE community.

So an ERE in this system is going to be two-pronged approach. This means that a person will have a primary 1 number that will enable a working age individual to reach FIRE. This must be achieved through private equity, and it is harder to do, since I can't do any of the 401k/IRA magic that people in the US do. However, there is very little need to budget for illness or accidents. This FI number is mostly to do with everyday costs.

Then, there is the pension for old age, which is almost a secondary FI (although a certain basic income for pensioners is guaranteed). I think it's wise to make sure that when these numbers are added together, the resulting figure will enable the person to afford the cost of extra medications and health care (private nurse, etc) that are often necessitated by getting older. In this system, accidents and serious illnesses are in principal a non-issue (hospital bills are negligible and if you become unable to work, you get a pension).

There's two savings rates then, SR1 (pension) and SR2 (FIRE). I save roughly 24% of my salary towards a normal pension. The other savings rate is a real FI number, and it must exclude the pension savings, since I can't access them.

So here's my current system for SR2. If salary is 100%, I am currently able to put 40% into savings in the following way:
10% cash savings (Like I said, I don't have enough cash at the moment)
10% index fund savings
13% rental income (mostly through equity)
7% home equity (yes, I count that because I can use it later)

SR2 is 40% and SR1 is roughly 24 percent. All in all, I save about 64% of my monthly salary. It could be worse, but it could a bit better too because at this rate, I'll achieve FI when I'm in my fifties. So savings rate will have to go up and expenses must go down.

The beauty of this system is that it's mostly set it and forget it. All of this stuff runs (now) automatically. I tried other ways, and honestly, those failed and I fell of the wagon for three years. At least I had some money in the index funds before that happened. I'm big on principles but not so much on follow through. So taking those savings rates up will have to happen slowly.

Another way of doing the two-pronged approach would be to save a SWR that would only bridge the years between FIRE and pension. I think this approach is quite risky though, since I'm not sure our society can withstand global competition in the coming decades.

There are other approaches that I'm making a part of my web-of-goals, and I'll talk about those next!

wolf
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by wolf »

Hi Finn. Regarding finances I am in a similar situation. I live in Germany and about 19% is going directly to my pension which I can access with 67yo (officialy). So I also calculate two SRs. SR1 is total savings from my gross income. SR2 is net savings from my net income. Well, I will try to become FI with my SR2 because it is a very long time till I can access my pension. And due to demographic influences and the possible pension crisis within the next few decades, I dont count too much on it. So I will try to play safe and count only on my SR2. Although I also calculate my SR1 and watch my pension growing from year to year. It depends on your level of risk awareness. How much do you tolerare risks regarding your future income from your SR1/SR2?

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TheWanderingScholar
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Re: Finn's three year plan

Post by TheWanderingScholar »

@Finn:

Essentially Geoinformatics and the like; essentially outside Academia and some niche industries it is hard find jobs inside Eestimaa within the field. Does not help that the schools focused is on Urban Planning, which means public sector is main field I am being pressed towards.

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