Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

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fiby41
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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by fiby41 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:15 am

jacob wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:03 pm
to develop an order of consciousness ...
The Vedic scriptures divide consciousness into five categories, namely covered, shrunken, budding, blooming, and fully bloomed.

Trees and plants, for example, are almost inert. They fall into the “covered consciousness” category. They seem to show no sign of consciousness, but when we observe them carefully, we see they have a limited consciousness.

Other living entities, such as worms, insects, and other animals, are in “shrunken consciousness.” They are not as covered as the plants, but their consciousness is not fully developed either.

Human beings have “budding consciousness.” A bud appears shrunken, but it has the potential to bloom into a flower. Human consciousness has similar potential; it appears shrunken like the animal’s, but humans have the innate ability to develop their consciousness to an almost unlimited extent, up to the point of knowing the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Other species do not have this special ability. That’s why the Vedic scriptures consider the human form of life the most elevated. The highest order of consciousness is Kṛṣṇa or God consciousness.

The 4th order called as self-regulation in the video is attained only by following the four regulative principles- no meat eating, no gambling, no casual illicit sex and no intoxication.

The Puruṣa Sūkta maps the human society, the five senses of perception, their corresponding five material elements- air, water, fire, earth and space/vacuum, the three subtle coverings of mind, intelligence and ego, ans their interconnectedness...
Onto the body of The Universal Person (Puruṣa.) It is in the Ṛgveda.
Last edited by fiby41 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BRUTE
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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by BRUTE » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:20 am

there's definitely an order of consciousness that can only be discovered on LSD

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fiby41
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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by fiby41 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:29 am

BRUTE wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:20 am
there's definitely an order of consciousness that can only be discovered on LSD
There are many persons who cannot understand spiritual existence at all. Being embarassed by so many theories and by contradictions of various types of philosophical speculation, they become disgusted or angry and foolishly conclude that there is no supreme cause and that everything is ultimately void. Such people are in a diseased condition of life. Some people are too materially attached and therefore do not give attention to spiritual life, some of them want to merge into the supreme spiritual cause, and some of them disbelieve in everything, being angry at all sorts of spiritual speculation out of hopelessness. This last class of men take to the shelter of some kind of intoxication, and their affective hallucinations are sometimes accepted as spiritual vision. One has to get rid of all three stages of attachment to the material world: negligence of spiritual life, fear of a spiritual personal identity, and the conception of void that underlies the frustration of life. To get free from these three stages of the material concept of life, one has to take complete shelter of the Lord, guided by the bona fide spiritual master, and follow the disciplines and regulative principles of devotional life. The last stage of the devotional life is called bhava, or transcendental love of Godhead.

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BRUTE
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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by BRUTE » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:37 am

fiby41 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:29 am
There are many persons who cannot understand spiritual existence at all. Being embarassed by so many theories and by contradictions of various types of philosophical speculation, they become disgusted or angry and foolishly conclude that there is no supreme cause and that everything is ultimately void. Such people are in a diseased condition of life. Some people are too materially attached and therefore do not give attention to spiritual life, some of them want to merge into the supreme spiritual cause, and some of them disbelieve in everything, being angry at all sorts of spiritual speculation out of hopelessness. This last class of men take to the shelter of some kind of intoxication, and their affective hallucinations are sometimes accepted as spiritual vision.
guilty

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Riggerjack
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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:19 am

@ brute

I'm sorry, I suck at communicating. In reference to kegan and levels, Jacob has posted the video before, I had seen it, it all seemed clear and simple. So much so, that I just dismissed it. I tend to always be an edge case, so when I test out at the extremely desirable end (maybe 50/50, I am always at the top or bottom), I don't know if I am an outlier, or the test was designed to make me *feel like an outlier* (mensa, cough).
So, I just popped out the answer that would work for me. Let me try that better.

I just listened to part of immune to change, a later work of kegan. I have a better feel for his model, and it wasn't what I am looking for. Or at least I didn't find what I was looking for there.

But at level 4, one would have a thorough grasp of a system, and it's limitations. Think of how thoroughly you understand libertarian ideas, and the ease you have with applying it to any situation. But, having that understanding, you know there are areas where your system is less than ideal, and some where it is entirely irrelevant. Metaphorically, you have a hammer, and you know the difference between a nail, a ringed nail, and a screw. And you don't hammer screws.

As you start toward the next level, you will get familiar with other systems, independent of libertarian, and learn to apply them, and their limits. You will find your metaphorical screwdrivers.

When you have the whole tool bag full, and you know where to use the right tools, and where there IS no right tool, and you are looking at your hammer, and your screwdrivers, and start to think about what an impact driver would look like. That seems like what is described as level 5.

But the whole model is not very applicable to me, I seem to have missed level 3 entirely. So take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

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Riggerjack
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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:23 am

brute simply MUST be right.
Yeah. I have noticed a pattern (now that I'm looking for it) among my friends. We all have a strong preference for definition. We want to talk about things, often not present, and sharing a definition makes this possible.

And it is implied in our communication, that more definition would be better. If concepts we're more clearly defined, we could communicate better. And among ourselves, this is true.

But when I watch n types, they are much more interested in ambiguity. In breaking definitions, to make their own uses of them. Until I read the SSC post about it, I never considered the good, logical reasons for wanting and using ambiguity.

So taking that backwards, how did we diverge? Where did I develope such a strong preference for definition and defined complexity of ideas, while everyone else followed a different path?

I think this goes back to late elementary school, and middle School. While I was playing D&D, and talking about game rules (I was a munchkin early); other kids were learning to use ambiguity to skirt around the rules. And learning to pass messages in public with their own codes. To communicate among themselves, while on the surface, communicating a different message to others.

Clarice quoted that great Scott Adams line, above, but I think the problem is deeper than that.

I think most geeks had very interesting distractions at this point in our lives, and we missed the games other kids were playing. By the time we realized that there WAS a game, it was because we were being declared the losers of the game, and the rules were ambiguous.

The reason I found kagen's model to not be what I was looking for, is I know how I think. I remember the limits of level 4, but I can't imagine how a level 3 can function as an adult. But I'm interested in what other people are thinking and how, in order to improve my own communication. Simply making a scale, and putting myself on the top is... counterproductive. And this is very common in scholarly approaches.

So what I am trying to reach for is what n types are thinking about. What they care about, and how they can hold these contradictions in their heads, and still function.

How can they say they think X, and when it is pointed out that X leads to Y, everytime; they can still support X, and condemn Y.

And I think it has something to do with this ambiguity/definition preference. I have a few ideas of how this could work.

Social signalling: n type doesn't really care about X or Y, merely that the right signals are given. When the group starts to change, preference for X or Y changes along with the goals of the n type, depending on how that n type perceives her place in the group, and potential changes to it.

Ambiguity: by simply avoiding defined, complex thoughts, the X leads to Y line of causal thinking is just underdeveloped. So me saying X leads to Y with certainty and examples, is no more likely to be accurate that the barista telling her to "have a great day!" (Which would certainly not make her any more blind to the truth than I am.)

And one of the key differences is in how we think we must be right. If a good, solid case can be made that I am wrong, I tend to correct my model, and go on with my day with a smile on my face. A great thing just happened.

But there are others who react quite differently. And I think that difference lies in how much we believe that truth is internal or external. If truth is external, and defined, getting a chance to more correctly align myself with it feels good. But if truth is something one holds inside oneself, everywhere the outside world is wrong, just feels more wrong. And someone making a solid case that one is wrong isn't a chance to realign and self correct, it is an attack on one's personal truth.

And holding truths inside, seems to be a function of this preference for ambiguity.

Or maybe I am wrong.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by ThisDinosaur » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:23 am

Riggerjack wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:23 am
We all have a strong preference for definition. We want to talk about things, often not present, and sharing a definition makes this possible.
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/7X2j8HA ... efinitions

There's a hypothesis that human language capacity evolved to support larger group sizes. The more individuals there are, the harder it is to keep track of who is an ally and who isn't. So we gossip. Listen to a group of women talking, or 24 hour news for that matter, and note how much of what is being said is discussion about previous conversations.

Some of us get a big old dopamine rush from talking shit, others get that rush from matching our definitions with those of others. "Does the map I drew look like the one you drew? Sweet! We can be a tribe!" Its just the way we're wired. Literally. Like, that circuit is connected to your mesolimbic pathway in just the right way such that gossip is for simpletons and philosophy is for eggheads. Case in point; I'm wired in such a way that the above explanation is satisfying to me.


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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:48 am

Its just the way we're wired. Literally. Like, that circuit is connected to your mesolimbic pathway in just the right way such that gossip is for simpletons and philosophy is for eggheads. Case in point; I'm wired in such a way that the above explanation is satisfying to me.
Yes, I agree.

The challenge is how to make philosophy "real" to "simpletons", and talking shit "real" to Eggheads. By real, I mean engaging enough to get those juices flowing and activate the hardwiring.

Premillennium, I don't think this was even possible, at scale. I'm trying to find a way, now. Because we have new tools, we have new possibilities.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:09 pm

@ mister imperceptible

Gotta love Nietzsche. As my best friend put it, "that Mother Fcuker knew how to throw down!".

Each time I read a bit more, I learn a bit more.

I missed a lot, the first time through.

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Riggerjack
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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:34 pm

Another way to look at this.

I can explain socialism to a 10 year old to a level enjoyed by most proponents of socialism. Then I can do the same with libertarian ideas. Then we could talk about the benefits of each, and weaknesses of each. It would still be a conversation with little complexity, but we could talk and both understand each other.

I think this is because the 10 year old still has loose wiring.

But I can't perform this simple task with a 30 year old socialist or libertarian. He has too many hardwired shortcuts installed. He discounts or skips past my input, because his truth is being attacked.

So, I am trying to find another way. I am tired of talking past people. I don't need them to know I am right. I need them to point out where I am wrong, in terms I can understand.

So right now, I am trying to find the limits of my terms of understanding.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:58 pm

I think this is because the 10 year old still has loose wiring.

But I can't perform this simple task with a 30 year old socialist or libertarian. He has too many hardwired shortcuts installed. He discounts or skips past my input, because his truth is being attacked
I think it has less to do with hard-wiring, and more to do with sunk costs. This is based on my frequent observation of adults making hard flips at mid-life or other life junctures, such as death of parent.

Another thing I have observed is that as we move through anything that can be modeled by Wheaton levels, there is a tendency to reject the perspective right below us, while simultaneously reintegrating aspects of the level 2 below. For simple example, a teenager reintegrates some of the hedonism of infancy, while rejecting the do-anything-for-gold-star-praise functioning of an 8 year old. So, the death of a parent can serve to either finally bring an end to the praise-seeking cycle, or it can also bring an end to the rebellion-cycle. So, an individual who took on mantle of communism in late adolescence in rebellion against capitalist-pig parent, might do hard revert at mid-life, if not self-aware.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by ThisDinosaur » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:55 pm

I suggest these two books:
Influence by Robert Cialdini, and Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss.

The first one is by a psychologist and is several years old (so its on very shaky scientific ground.) But one of the things it talks about is automated responses. When you talk to a 30 year old socialist, every word you say reminds them of something they've read or heard before as a potential comeback. This is the listening vs. waiting-for-your-turn-to-talk phenomenon. "That reminds me of this thing I wanna say now so shut up."

The second book is newer and is about negotiation. One of the things it says is that people love to be understood. If you can explain to someone their own position in a way they agree with, they feel heard. That's important. If you get them to say "that's right," then they know you were listening and not waiting-for-your-turn-to-talk. This establishes rapport, and you can proceed to dismantle their assumptions as someone who "gets it" instead of as an adversary.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:42 pm

So, you are saying that it would generally be in an individual's self-interest to develop the skill of faking empathetic listening?

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by ThisDinosaur » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:50 pm

Well, I think that it would be, but that's not what I'm saying. For someone to listen to you, you first have to demonstrate that you've listened to them. In doing so, you might actually learn something from them. But even if you dont, effective communication is impossible if you're both just shouting talking points.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:08 pm

So, for example, based on recent contentious conversation I had:

7WB5: So, you are saying that the reason you can't get an apartment in the Senior Plaza is because they moved the age requirement up, and the reason they moved the age requirements up is that all the Muslim immigrants bring over their parents in order to get them benefits from a system they never paid into, right?

Where would I go from there with the conversation?

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:11 pm

"Well, I hadn't considered that. But I have a feeling about how my mom would feel about emigrating with me to go hang out in senior housing. It wouldn't happen. What makes you think that is what is happening here?"

Or, just bow out since no actual information is forthcoming...

While I may wish to be able to communicate better, there is no need to communicate. Most people are best left to themselves, I find.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by BRUTE » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:58 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:58 pm
as we move through anything that can be modeled by Wheaton levels, there is a tendency to reject the perspective right below us, while simultaneously reintegrating aspects of the level 2 below.
brute has noticed this as well. he thinks this is the concept of "chop wood, carry water" mentioned by DLj in various places.

for brute, the big one has been community, and even faith. brute went through a strong-aggressive-atheist phase and a pretty strong anti-nationalist phase, then into a more shrug-agnosticism phase, and is now surprisingly ok with both religious and nationalist/patriotic humans.

mostly because the religious and nationalist/patriotic humans he knows are quite pleasant. but also because even in a context of total freedom, brute has to do and believe something. he couldn't believe in religion or the nation state himself, but he can tell it makes many humans happy.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by jacob » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:40 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:19 am
But the whole model is not very applicable to me, I seem to have missed level 3 entirely. So take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.
Are you sure? Since Kegan is increasing the nuance of what it means to be an adult, you might just have moved through it a long time ago?

Like at age 17 or 22 or somesuch?

In the traditional model, we have three stages---child, adolescent/teenager, adult---that are delineated by age. In Kegan's framework, there are 5 stages: child(1), adolescent(2), adult1(3), adult2(4), adult3(5). The disturbing fact here is that maturity has been decoupled from age. Thus there are adults (people over age 19) that are still stuck in adolescence in terms of maturity (about 14% of the adult population). Add that most adults peak out at the adult1 stage and never progress.

I'm thinking that a) the video didn't quite do the theory justice; and b) you might not know what to look for or how to evaluate what a stage or a transition to the next stage looks like in practice?(*) Kegan is a dense writer, so it requires some thinking to grok it. I'm still working on it, but having finished The Evolving Self, I can recommend that as well. It covers each stage in detail...unfortunately paying a lot more detail to 2, 3, and 4 than 4.5 and 5 or beyond. Like with Wheaton levels, it's superhard to talk about where you are or where you haven't been yet.

(*) For example, in terms of a profession/vocation. If someone ask you what you do for a living and you say "I'm a soldier or a physicist", you're channeling Kegan3 answers. Doesn't mean that responding like a Kegan3 means you're Kegan3, but maybe at some point you thought like that... identifying with your profession. Your job is your identity. At Kegan4, your professions transitions from being the subject to being an object. You're no longer a soldier. Rather, you have a career in soldiering. The career becomes the object---it exists outside of you. You can make plans for your career. I'm going to do this or that and advance in the ranks. At Kegan4.5, you realize that there's more to your profession than advancing a career. Likely, you'd feel betrayed by the promises of the career as an expression of your profession. Wait what?! Is this [careerism] all there is to it [the vocation]? Rereading the ERE book with this understanding, chapters 1 describes Kegan2-Kegan4 and chapter 2 (the lock-in) is my catharsis for finally leaving Kegan4 for 4.5. Recall that I wrote the book right after going through a lot (a few years) of soul-searching about what my physics career was in terms of me/my identity.

So my point is .. after reading the two books now, I think I can identify at least a couple of transitions in my past self. There's the term "born old" ... this might cover those who move relatively rapidly through the early stages. Advancements likely runs along individual S-curves.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:11 pm

Well, I didn't read kegan directly, I saw the video, it made sense. Then I listened to immune to change, which is a leadership development book, and feels like someone is trying to help people channel Gordon Gekko.

I am suspicious of any system that seems to put me at the top. Not because I don't feel like I belong there, but that it's very hard to tell from that point how much of my exceptional status is mine, and how much is that the system is testing for people like me. Academics think like me, and tend to focus on systems that put thinking as I do at the desirable end of the scale.

But like BRUTE, I am overly familiar with the "too smart for his own good" line of thought. I think so, myself, of myself and many of my friends. I don't need a model of how I think, I have one. I need a model of what other people are thinking, that works. Simply dismissing them as simple thinkers seems to be where kegan was going. Arrested development at stage 2-3.

Whereas I think their minds are very busy, and not terribly different from my own.

But their hardwiring is VERY different. Their reward systems (juice) are triggered differently than mine. They respond to the same stimuli very differently than I do. They connect dots, I don't see. In patterns I can't predict. That's not a simple mind. That is just a very different mind.

So what I am finding most helpful, has been basic "adulting" instructions, on social subjects, to see where my assumptions aren't accurate. And then going back to past situations, to see how they could be perceived differently.

It hasn't worked yet, but I'm finding lots of room for improvement in my assumptions. :oops:

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