Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by jacob » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:03 pm

I don't know yet because I haven't gotten around to reading all of them yet. My library checkout/onhold list is 25 books deep currently :-P

However, this is the most important point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW4LTqRJDW8 ... although there's more to the [In over our heads] book than this.

(Warning: the vid implies [by the way it's constructed] that it's mostly an 'automatic age' thing whereas according to Kegan, it's really an 'acquired maturity' thing requiring life experience/introspection. While watching the vid recall that 1/6 adults peak and die at order 2... and most adults peak and die at order 3.)

For those programmers out there, in terms of organization Kegan's (and Bateson's) levels can be seen as a class deriving from lower orders (all of them) via has-a compositions. E.g. the level3 class has level2 classes + a bunch of methods for dealing with their interactions and world-mappings. Ditto all the way up. It follows that building the next N-level step is something of a k^N challenge. This is why it takes maturity=effort*time*skill to build any given order and why Kegan thinks that Level5 generally can't be achieved in less than at least 40 years.---Whereas almost all humans are capable of scaling order 2 by age 6-10 or so. That should indicate the range. At the end of the IOOH book, he suggests this timescale is crucial in terms of what kind of society is possible. If longevity<time to develop an order of consciousness ... then the society will reflect this limit. Thus if people live longer, society will^H^H^H^Hcan reflect a greater maturity level as well.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Paula » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:59 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:12 pm

Now S is the stereotypical soccer mom. Stable middle class family, stable, middle class husband, 2.3 children, SUV, the works.

So how could that set of starting conditions led to such different rewards patterns that her brain was hardwired differently than mine in such a way as to allow her to understand, but not care?
She is probably thinking the same thing about you. For most of us, human connections are the most important thing. Far, far more important than abstract -isms. She may be wondering how you became wired in such a way that you understand but do not care about the things that are so very important to her.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by jacob » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:33 pm

Vis-a-vis the socialized mind (3) and the self-authoring mind (4).

It may be that S=3 and N=4 but lets not jump the shark. It probably more complicated than that ... or maybe not. Maybe MBTI is a Kegan4 theory. If so, there's another Q-type for Kegan5. E.g. xQFP or whatever ... Anyhoo ..

Average human is now Kegan 3.17 ... and that's probably why we are were we are as we are: Mostly tribalists(3). Still susceptible to fascism/authoritarianism(2) or wannabe elite/libertarian(4).

Even stevens for the prognosis. Humans can and will still go either way.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:56 pm

She is probably thinking the same thing about you. For most of us, human connections are the most important thing. Far, far more important than abstract -isms. She may be wondering how you became wired in such a way that you understand but do not care about the things that are so very important to her.
Oh, I expect so. I am definitely the one who stands out. However, I am interested in exploring a model of how she (and others like her) thinks. While I think at this point she has lost her curiosity about what went wrong with me. :lol:

I am curious what you think of my model. Does it make any kind of sense to you, or do I need to re-examine my assumptions again?

For the feeley types (F's rather than T's) when NTs go off on abstract tangents, what does that feel like?

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BRUTE
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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by BRUTE » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:59 pm

wow, this is a lot of good stuff. brute had to take notes. here goes:

@Riggerjack:

upbringing

it's interesting how closely brute's upbringing mirrors Riggerjack's. almost to the point, with a few exceptions. no surprise brute and Riggerjack both think similarly about libertarianism.


tribe of one

brute isn't sure if it's a "clean slate", but there is certainly a phenomenon where some individuals become distant/disillusioned/fail to adapt to their natural tribe. brute could make the argument that neither Riggerjack nor he ever fully adopted their natural tribes, or maybe repeated chances at starting over with clean slates in new tribes made the difference. it's probably both.

brute has also seen tribes (including his own natural one) fail so brutally and viciously, and seen humans get fucked so badly, that it's difficult for him to commit to any tribe to the degree that the average human seems to be able to.

it might be like that theory about "which stock market a human (financially) grew up in" - if a human grows up seeing the tribe fail badly, and individuals get really hurt, they will probably develop a completely different mental model of societies, politics, and so on.

most humans in the west grew up in just about the nicest and safest political environment and society that has existed in human history. it's like growing up during the stock market of the 90s. it's easy to be index-positive and optimistic after that experience. by analogy, brute and Riggerjack got fucked by the penny stocks or pets.com startups of the time, and have become much more wary of the blue skies of tribalism.


on humans doing mindblowingly contradicting stuff

there are times when brute's brain literally failed to compute. for example, brute knows humans with type 2 diabetes who have had limbs amputated and literally gone blind, yet don't want to try out a low-carb diet because they "couldn't possibly do that". they'd rather lose one of the more important sense and the ability to walk than try a diet that is moderately out there (Atkins is hardly radical compared to what brute eats). "but bread tastes so good" is another popular argument AMONG HUMANS WHO ARE ABOUT TO LOSE LIMBS AND EYE SIGHT! WHAT THE FUCK!

there are various other medical examples brute could list, of humans choosing to spend the rest of their lives in self-described "endless agony" and "debilitating disability", but unwilling to try something that's free, would likely completely cure the condition, and taste better. medical professionals are no better - in brute's eyes, the treatment of diabetes, obesity, and related conditions from the 1950s onwards is paramount to genocide on the part of the medical profession.

on the other hand, some humans fly a plane into a building, killing themselves and their friends and hundreds of innocents, because there was a promise to get laid.

so it could be said that beliefs are maybe the most powerful force in humans.


responsibility

in short, brute isn't sure this has much to do with libertarianism. brute HATES responsibility. brute enjoys libertarianism. for most humans brute has argued with, the idea of personal responsibility and political systems seems pretty disconnected.


uncaring? brute thinks not.

brute thinks that most non-libertarians, at least most liberals and conservatives, are actually extremely caring. brute's mental model goes like this:

there are various levels of effects/consequences that humans can think about a specific problems they care about. 1st order, 2nd order, .. similar to the way Dear Leader jacob describes the web of goals effects in the ERE book.

most of the time, humans will agree with brute on the desired outcomes (0th order effects?), e.g. "human children should not starve", "humans who work in factories should not die", or "crime is bad".

the 1st order thought could be something like "banning crime" or "raising the minimum wage". a pretty simple, direct-effect action or law. most humans ignore any higher-level effects.

unfortunately, human societies and economies are complex, intercausal systems, where the higher order effects are often stronger than the first order (intended) effects.

thus "workers are poor -> raising the minimum wage" type ideas actually end up doing more harm than good, often times even hurting workers more than it helps.

economics is the science of thinking about the higher-order effects of these things, and brute presumes there's some other social science that does the same for more general societal effects or non-economic policy. for example, the higher-order effects of both parents working, social media, stuffing 30 human kids of the same age in a class room, not being surrounded by grandparents while growing up, and many more.

most humans only think "workers are poor! bad!", or "workers are poor! bad! -> minimum wage! good!". rarely do humans not formally trained about a specific field even think that they might be missing the higher-order effects, and typically they are unable to do so if they try, or if trained humans try to explain it to them.

parallels: global warming discussions with Dear Leader jacob.

this sure sounds like the Kegan thing. and it seems to invalidate Democracy.

what is the solution? technocracy? just spectacularly failed in Europe (or in the process of, apparently still in free fall). maybe there is a way to do technocracy right?

maybe a more evolutionary system, where small iterative things are tried and then somehow humans measure if the higher-order effects added up to something good? economics and complex social systems are notoriously hard to A/B test though, to the point where economists disagree even about the things where both sides have the exact same facts in front of them (e.g. great depression, QE, inflation, minimum wage), which is rare.

to come back to the touchy-feely types: when they suggest "school shooting bad! -> ban guns", or "poor workers bad! -> minimum wage", and int-types/libertarians argue against it, they conclude that ints/libertarians must not think school shooting or poor workers are bad.

violent rejection ensues. ("SHOCK! libertarians are for child prostitution! inconceivable!")

@ffj:

self interest vs. altruism seems a false dichotomy. they're the same thing. for an altruistic human, it's in his self-interest to help others. the whole point of virtue signaling, The Atlantic, and so on seems to be to reinforce the identity of an altruist to the altruist himself and his in-group.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by daylen » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:26 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:56 pm
For the feeley types (F's rather than T's) when NTs go off on abstract tangents, what does that feel like?
I am clearly not a feely, but I have some family members that are. When I go off on an abstract tangent these people will cancel out what I am saying and instead focus on my non-verbal behavior. After I am done they will say something like, "Oh wow, interesting. Your mind is amazing! It is great to see your enthusiasm.". So, really they have no idea what I am saying, but they can very clearly read my feelings about it.

I think from their perspecitve my rants are like a theater performance.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Paula » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:47 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:06 pm
I needed a neutral term for the 90% of people who think in more normalized ways. I chose N type (normal type), because calling them emotional morons in my head was interfering with modeling. :geek: And really, I don’t think this has much, if anything to do with intelligence, but rather our chemical feedback loops, and where we get our juice.
Riggerjack wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:56 pm

Oh, I expect so. I am definitely the one who stands out. However, I am interested in exploring a model of how she (and others like her) thinks. While I think at this point she has lost her curiosity about what went wrong with me. :lol:

I am curious what you think of my model. Does it make any kind of sense to you, or do I need to re-examine my assumptions again?

For the feeley types (F's rather than T's) when NTs go off on abstract tangents, what does that feel like?
You mentioned Paul Graham. I looked him up and found his article on why nerds are unpopular. My first reaction was how funny it is that everyone seems to adopt a model that explains the world in a way that allows them to feel good about themselves. I wonder, has anyone ever invented a model where they were in the moron category?

Graham is right that nerds are not willing to do what is required to be popular. It reminded me of a quote I heard from Scott Adams, the guy who does the Dilbert cartoon. "If you want success, figure out the price, then pay it"

I think that might be the point you are having trouble understanding. She and her friends in the 90% define success differently than you. You are confused by the price they are willing to pay for it.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by BRUTE » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:12 pm

Paula wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:47 pm
My first reaction was how funny it is that everyone seems to adopt a model that explains the world in a way that allows them to feel good about themselves. I wonder, has anyone ever invented a model where they were in the moron category?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2 ... e_morality

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by daylen » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:12 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:16 pm
What I like is that it better explains that contradiction, without disparaging their intelligence, because I really do think people are generally about the same intelligence, overall, just tuned into different spectrums of intelligence.
There are clear differences in neurophysiology that lead to differences in IQ. Sure, IQ is normally distributed, but this does not mean that the tails are harmless. Anyone with an IQ below about 85 cannot do much of anything useful in the economy, so what are we supposed to do with these people? Overflowing the prison system is our current solution.

Also, the multiple-intelligence theory has been generally debunked in psychology. IQ basically measures how fast a person can solve any puzzle. As long as the person can understand what the questions are asking, it does not matter what type of puzzle it is. IQ is one of the most robust findings in all of social science.
Last edited by daylen on Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by BRUTE » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:36 pm

daylen wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:12 pm
IQ is one of the most robust findings in all of social science.
has daylen ever spoken to a physicist?

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by daylen » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:39 pm

Yes, I have actually. You know I said SOCIAL science right?

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by BRUTE » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:16 am

brute just knows too many physicists and programmers to believe in general intelligence. he's not saying there aren't humans out there who would have a hard time with most IQ test puzzles, but for the outliers, the outlying typically seems to come at the expense of other areas.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by J_ » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:45 am

I can hardly follow the discussions in this thread, but find them nevertheless interesting. It demonstrates so well how difficult it is to communicate, to understand, to form a point of view.
And still you and me are striving to understand each other. It is nearly impossible, (look how in the last posts of edithkeelers thread we suffer to cope with complicated illnesses and complicated institutions (hospitals) and our complicated bodies).
It is very difficult in our forum, let's alone in our even more complicated political systems.
As Jacob advised I have orderderd Keagan's book: Perhaps it will give me some tools to help me to survive/to cope better in our society.
But for now I try to get my insights enhanced by studying our Forums.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by BRUTE » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:00 am

jacob wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:03 pm
However, this is the most important point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW4LTqRJDW8 ... although there's more to the [In over our heads] book than this.
brute was nodding along for levels 1-4, and has no idea what level 5 was even talking about.

so either brute is at level 4, or level 5 is bullshit.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by J_ » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:02 am

@brute: a dichotomie dictated in your brain? Or because you are perhaps under 40?, as Kegan says.(for level 5 is only reachable after that age)

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by IlliniDave » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:41 am

At the risk of further derailing Riggerjack's journal (which is quite interesting) I watched the video jacob linked. It was basically my introduction to Kegan. It may just be a combination of my sub-novice status and the way the video author presented things, but I kind of fell into the same reaction as BRUTE in that the presentation of level 5 didn't seem to flow with the rest. My first thought about the progression was that it seemed a series of steps in the direction of the Buddhist concept of non-duality, especially at step 5.

It may be a case of self-aggrandizement or ignorance, but level 4 seems to describe my experience during my time as a university student. But I tend to work in sort of a spiral--whatever gains I make (or at least believe I make) get fed back through starting with basic perception and concept of self and work back though to iterate the whole. So whatever "levels" I am operating in, I am never beyond them. I suppose I could say that rather then nested Russian dolls it's more like facets on an ill-shaped lump of something.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by daylen » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:23 am

@brute

Intelligence is not equivilent to knowledge, skill, experience, discipline, motivation, and so forth. Intelligence is one-dimensional, though sometimes it is split into fluid and crystalized intelligence. IQ is a measure of fluid intelligence, and crystalized intelligence is the accumulation of knowledge, skills, and experience. A good measure of crystalized intelligence is vocabulary size. After accounting for age, crystalized intelligence is highly correlated with fluid intelligence.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:58 pm

I wonder, has anyone ever invented a model where they were in the moron category?
I have. That's partially what this thread is about. Finding my misperceptions. Thanks, you help is appreciated.
I think from their perspecitve my rants are like a theater performance.
:lol:
IQ basically measures how fast a person can solve any puzzle. As long as the person can understand what the questions are asking, it does not matter what type of puzzle it is. IQ is one of the most robust findings in all of social science.
I agree.
brute just knows too many physicists and programmers to believe in general intelligence. he's not saying there aren't humans out there who would have a hard time with most IQ test puzzles, but for the outliers, the outlying typically seems to come at the expense of other areas.
And I agree with this as well. The next post will be how I reconcile them.
brute was nodding along for levels 1-4, and has no idea what level 5 was even talking about.

so either brute is at level 4, or level 5 is bullshit.
I do like the way you have with words. For level 5, see everything I have said here about marriage, and how it is different in kind, not duration from other relationships. Another example, I hope, will be this thread. Where I will talk about what I think in more detail, in hopes others can fault it. In hopes that me talking about how I saw things and how that has changed to how I currently see things can help others who think as I did. Either I am on to something with my speculations, or someone can show me how I missed something. If it goes right, maybe we can all know each other and ourselves a bit better.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:59 pm

Riggerjack" wrote:For level 5, see everything I have said here about marriage
Well, of course. All old libertarian men eventually come to believe that it is in their self-interest for every other individual to value independence over interdependence, EXCEPT for one attractive, younger woman who should, of course, value interdependence with him over independence. :lol:

In terms of life-cycle development, what happens around age 40-50 is that males and females tend towards a bit of a flip-flop on the values of autonomy and intimate relationship. The thought that occurred to me while watching that Thketch link is that it was based on the "boy" version of development. Level 5 is the same for individuals of either gender, but for reasons likely partially inherent and partially cultural, the approach is a bit different.

Anyways, I think Level 5 is when you have dinner with your own adult child who is fairly securely approaching Level 4, and the topic of ideal parenting methods comes up, and you can both agree with only a tinge of guilt or resentment that you erred on the side of laissez-faire, but maybe she would have done the same in your circumstances, and then as you drive away you wonder about the ramifications 20 years from now of the conversation you just had.

You can stretch the web along some vector to gain perspective on some section of the whole, but you are always within the spinning web.

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Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:43 am

Just a quick note. I found an easy to access model for my communication style, I think.

Netflix has a series called Norsemen. There is a character named Rufus, a Romanian actor, turn Viking slave, who simply doesn't understand the way the world he finds himself in works. He is at best confused, and perhaps a madman, as he fails to pick up increasingly heavy handed hints, until someone loses patience, and tries alternative teaching methods.

But the standards in his head are real, just not in a way that can be appreciated by other cast members, and his inability to communicate effectively just exacerbates the problem.

It's not a flattering comparison, but it works. I am trying to understand how n-types work, so I can teach myself their dialect of English. Grand ideas with no practical application, are losing my interest.

Now, I'm just trying to get some of what is in my head out on paper, and it's far harder than I had thought it would be. It'd be a shame if after all my work, it weren't usable by anyone, because I translated it wrong.

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