Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Where are you and where are you going?
User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 2487
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:47 pm

oh, and it has lifted 4 billion humans out of poverty over the last few decades, while Riggerjack was busy feeling sorry for himself. boohoo!

ps: brute is angrier about this than he should be.
Yeah, I was pretty sure that would be the case. But please take heed, I agree with you. Every point you have to say to convince me is going to be wasted, because I agree with you. And yet, I don't come to the same conclusion. Take a minute to process that. We have a ways to go, and we won't get there, if we get bogged down into any aspects of whether free markets lead to better distributions. Again, I agree.
One thing I've never fully grokked about libertarianism is its' equating (?) of freedom with a market economy; or, said differently, that a market economy maximizes personal freedom. Yet, when I look at the economy, I see that people are essentially forced into the job market (or at least requiring socially acceptable paper\digital credits\money) by virtue of needing to feed\clothe\provide requirements of life for themselves.
I will get to this, and more, but there is much to unpack first. That will be in what I consider subject #5, and we are starting subject #2.
There is probably a third major flaw to libertarianism - its never happened. There has a never been a developed society adopting anything close to a libertarian model. I don't mean selective examples of successful self-governing markets, I mean a country or region which has essentially abandoned substantive market intervention (except maybe in anarchist Spain, but don't think libertarian-communism is what most libertarians have in mind) In reality, such a society would be quickly crushed, either through internal opposition or external force. Its a seductively attractive idea, but not a realistic one.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree about that. But stick around, by the end I think we will come closer to agreeing than we have in the past.

So, to try #2 from a different point of view, let me try to talk about my feelings about religion to help people read that as one post, and where it leads in another, so it can perhaps work up fewer strong reactions that way.

I am not religious. Which is not the same thing as anti-religious, I have no hostility to religion or adherents. When I was young, I was entertained by arguing with religious folks, but it always came down to faith, and either you have it, or you don't. I don't.

So, when someone says "God bless you." or "I'll pray for you.", I think, "Oh, you think highly enough of me to talk to your invisible sky daddy, that's nice. When He and the Flying Spaghetti Monster get together, what stories they will have to tell." but I say, "thank you". I would include examples from other religions, but they are uncommon enough that what few examples I have seem stereotypical and could open a side issue. I'm not talking about my feelings about religion to explore them, but to illustrate a point in my next post.

User avatar
BRUTE
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:59 pm

@Hobbes, chenda: brute is happy to discuss these topics in a new topic, but wouldn't want to spam Riggerjack's thread with those kinds of basic Libertarian arguments.

User avatar
Hobbes
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:35 pm

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Hobbes » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:04 pm

@Riggerjack

I'm looking forward to seeing where you take this!

@BRUTE

I'm down with that - perhaps a new thread in politics and other eternal disagreements?

Jean
Posts: 498
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Jean » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:24 pm

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:18 pm
I sometimes wonder if libertarianism is an excellent personal philosophy, and not really viable as a political philosophy. (Isn’t “libertarian” incompatible with “-ism” by definition?)
I have thought it is for a while.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 10233
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by jacob » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:36 pm


User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 2487
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:27 am

oh, and it has lifted 4 billion humans out of poverty over the last few decades, while Riggerjack was busy feeling sorry for himself. boohoo!

ps: brute is angrier about this than he should be.
Top
I'm going to take a minute out to talk about this, because it is such a fine example of what I'm trying to talk about.


BRUTE is angry. I'm guessing BRUTE is a bit surprised by how angry, and not really aware of why. (This is all speculative, and I am projecting my own thoughts, this may not apply at all.)

But I think BRUTE should be angry. BRUTE has experienced a betrayal. My betrayal.

See, for years now, both BRUTE and I have been posting here, a fairly small venue. In all that time, we have been in fairly solid agreement on appropriate application of freedom and economics to further social subjects, as they come up. I would say BRUTE is funnier than I, and more flexible in how he applies his mind to problems. It has been a real pleasure to get to know him here.

But then I start a journal, and immediately begin to back away from libertarian ideas and ideals. BRUTE's small tribe of libertarian cohorts within the small community of ERE is showing signs of splintering. This should cause anger within the group, and the stronger any individual ties to an ideology, the more personal the reaction. Also, the more central to the tribe, the more threatening a splintering is to status and security.

So part of BRUTE'S reaction is because the group is small. If we were on mises.org, where libertarians congregate, my defection would go unnoticed. If I opened a journal there, and talked about this, I would get much criticism, a bit of shaming, then ignored. Nobody would get angry, or at least, not very.

But here, we are a small tribe within a small community, and that community (ERE) plays to the NT strengths so well, that I would rather post about banking practices or Nazi rallies here, than anywhere else. Thanks, Jacob!

And I have come out and attacked the central tenet of our tribe (and shall continue to do so). And the tribe is small (too small to splinter on its own) and BRUTE is arguably central to that group (mister imperceptible and campitor also make regular, in depth libertarian posts, but brute is both more prolific, and more flexible in his posting). I don't think BRUTE could do that without internalizing his role here within his identity. When I was stepping away from libertarian ideas, it likely felt like a personal attack on BRUTE, and an attempt to break up BRUTE's tribe.

That was not my goal. But it makes a illustrative example. Even we INTJs operate at monkey levels. We just do it less, and thus, worse, than the population at large.

Again, all the above is speculative. I have never met BRUTE, and only shared a few PMs over the years. I could be completely wrong about all of the above.

User avatar
BRUTE
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by BRUTE » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:03 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:27 am
I would say BRUTE is funnier than I ... more flexible in how he applies his mind to problems .. It has been a real pleasure .. BRUTE is arguably central to that group .. brute is both more prolific, and more flexible in his posting
why, stop it, is Riggerjack trying to seduce brute?
Riggerjack wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:27 am
That was not my goal. But it makes a illustrative example. Even we INTJs operate at monkey levels. We just do it less, and thus, worse, than the population at large.
brute does feel betrayed in a way. he will try to explain.

there is a pretty common cycle among libertarians (and maybe all groups). honeymoon, disillusion, bla bla bla. typically these follow a pretty distinct timeline. brute has known Riggerjack for longer than this timeline typically lasts, and brute thinks Riggerjack is very old (40 or even older!), so brute had assumed that Riggerjack was way over the disillusionment trough and in the stable, cynical, long-term phase of being a libertarian. in fact, especially the cynicism and world weary attitude are what attracts brute to Riggerjack's posts. they are not mostly about libertarianism, they are about stuff from a reasonable human being who happens to have a very libertarian attitude. very little proselytizing.

ever since Trump happened, brute has seen a wave of libertarians become disillusioned with libertarianism. most of these were younger ones, that were just ripped out of the honeymoon phase more violently than usual. brute himself has also been changed in his world view by this whole thing. he now believes that the conservatives were right about a lot of things that brute pretended didn't matter much - culture, belief, unity, society, family, children.

many of these things, brute now believes, matter exactly because even libertarians who are right about everything are monkeys. there is a fundamental, non-intellectual part of the human experience that is common to almost all humans, and many libertarians ignore it. especially more left-leaning/non-conservative libertarians like brute.

but realizing that there is another dimension that's important does not at all seem to contradict the existing dimension: that libertarianism is right about pretty much everything.

thus brute is ok with "pure libertarians" moving into the "conservative libertarian" corner, or if disgusted by Trump, maybe into the "left libertarian corner". but moving out of the libertarian corner entirely seems completely illegitimate to brute, not in the moral sense, but because there are no better ideas out there that brute has seen.

brute insofar feels less betrayed by his tiny libertarian group on here splintering as by the impression that, upon taking in new information, Riggerjack has failed to integrate it into his existing world view, and instead has chucked out the old to make space for the new, when the two didn't at all seem incompatible to brute.

maybe brute is getting this all wrong, because, admittedly, Riggerjack started this whole thread very cryptically.

but brute would be extremely surprised to see any reason to leave the libertarian corner, even if another preference was recently added. if so, he'd like to see the new information. but the mere conclusion that humans are monkeys does not contradict libertarianism as brute sees it at all. in fact, brute's whole shtick on here for years has been this exact message, except he did it with computers instead of monkeys. because hey, brute likes computers more than monkeys.

User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 2487
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:37 pm

maybe brute is getting this all wrong, because, admittedly, Riggerjack started this whole thread very cryptically.
Didn't I though? I have been experimenting with communication, if that isn't too much of a word for what I have been doing. In short, I am trying to be less blunt, or direct. We'll see if it makes for better understanding, or if I go back to what I know.... :oops:

User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 2487
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:06 pm

I have been rethinking, my thinking.

When tracing back some of my thoughts, I find I have been making choices and decisions in a semiautomatic fashion (no surprise) but the assumptions I used to make the decision were inaccurate. But the decision had been made, and success achieved, and repeated, until it was nearly automatic. The repeat of the same pattern, leading to the same success makes each following decision more likely to follow the same paths, until it doesn’t require thought at all. I call this hardwiring.

Sometimes, that hardwiring leads to an emotional reward. A sense of satisfaction. Solve a problem, get the dopamine (juice), reinforce the learned behavior. This leads to what I call hooks. Feedback loops that lead to emotional rewards.

Going back to find those assumptions, vastly increases the number of options, and has a cascading effect. Each inaccurate assumption leads to other assumptions to question. It’s been a fun year.

And this has helped me model other people better.

I have always been very confused by people’s contradictory behavior. How does one not want tyranny or fascism, and yet make choices that lead toward tyranny/fascism? How does one want good things for minorities, and choose things that so clearly have such negative effects on the most vulnerable members of that minority? How does one want equality, yet choose options that will decrease equality?

Somewhat like designing plumbing or HVAC systems, I can somewhat predict what a mass will do, but at an individual level, many actions seem nearly random. The contradictions above were just throwing a wrench in the works. So, not knowing how that worked, I just classified it as contradictory behavior I didn’t understand, and left it aside to be worked on later.

But what if everyone else has those same semiautomatic decisions going on, based on faulty assumptions? Could that explain the contradictions? And if so, why are my assumptions different from theirs?

I have gone into my past, and some of the less pleasant aspects elsewhere, no need to repeat here. But the relevant part is that I grew up as outgroup. Geeky. Poor. Teacher’s pet. Moving around, a lot. Drugs. Lots of stupid, self destructive decisions, everywhere. My friends described me as feral. Not in a “half wild, you better look out” way, but in a “skittish, distrusting, poorly socialized” way. So, all my hooks were formed in my self image as independent, and smart. None were tied to social acceptance. (Looking back, that doesn’t seem smart.)

And a lot of my assumptions about people were made in school, in the popularity contest Paul Graham describes in his essays. That’s not a good environment to get accurate profiles of how people behave. So, I know where I have work to do, and I’m slowly doing it.

But the side effect is I have had a chance to improve my model for other people.

I needed a neutral term for the 90% of people who think in more normalized ways. I chose N type (normal type), because calling them emotional morons in my head was interfering with modeling. :geek: And really, I don’t think this has much, if anything to do with intelligence, but rather our chemical feedback loops, and where we get our juice.

Most folks went to the same schools, all their lives. So the girl who saw you let the tarantula go free in second grade is the one you asked to the prom. This kind of consistency in childhood is a bit mind blowing to me, but also very restrictive. Most kids never get a clean slate, where they get to reinvent themselves. Some get a chance as they go off to college, since nobody knows who they were in HS. But most never do.

I am wondering if this is a contributing factor to agency, or lack thereof.

So what do you think? Did you get a chance to reinvent yourself? When, and how often? Do you think this was a contributing factor in your ability to choose your own path?

User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 2487
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:12 pm

More impersonally, what is going on that so many people don’t have this sense of agency?

Let me recount a story from nearly a decade ago:

S is a coworker. We occasionally go on walks together when the sun shines and it’s time to get out of the office. This was when Obamacare was the topic of the day. I launched into my INTJ libertarian viewpoint, explaining the disconnect between decisions and costs will always lead to cost disease, so breaking that further would cause the problem to be worse, not better. And she looked at me and said:

“So you think while I’m in an emergency room, dealing with a health crisis, I should also worried about how much money I’m spending? No.”

Uh, well, it’s not a yes or no question. Either you think of it at the time, when thinking about it can do you some good, or you think of it after, when it doesn’t, and you think of it now, because it’s a looming threat, all the time.

“No. I don’t like that.”

And like that, the subject was closed. Unsurprisingly, this happens quite a bit.

Now S is the stereotypical soccer mom. Stable middle class family, stable, middle class husband, 2.3 children, SUV, the works. In school, she “did alright, but not great.” But she’s pretty, highly social, stable, schooled in the top public schools in Puget Sound. Methinks her idea of alright is far different than mine.

So how could that set of starting conditions led to such different rewards patterns that her brain was hardwired differently than mine in such a way as to allow her to understand, but not care?

Well, all the cards were laid out for social acceptance. And we all know how important that is, and from a biochemical/evolutionary perspective that became her central motivation, social acceptance and social positioning her main goal. Actions that lead to more of either, were reinforced. Conformity to group norms became where her hooks are. So every Idea that doesn’t trigger those hooks is abstract and unimportant.

But it’s more than that. S is very much like most of the teachers I knew growing up, and the teachers I have met as an adult. I think if we looked at the Masters in Education program, and the public school system in general, it selects for people like S. Stable. Social. Middle of the road types. In short, the people who are well socialized, and don’t have anything else they would rather do. S could be a teacher, but she wouldn’t be a programmer, or a CEO, or a doctor, because her strengths are all social strengths.

And I’m wondering if a few generations of only teachers like S has had an effect on us. All the complaints about students that teachers make seem to resolve around improperly socialized kids acting out for their peers. They seem to be trying to change their status within the group, because there is no other game to win. I’m wondering if teachers chosen for sociability are selecting for the same within the classroom. Making a population of N types, or more to the point, increasing the percentage of N types.

But more than that, we have moved, in my lifetime, from single earning households to dual income households. I remember the concern about latchkey kids. I was dismissive at the time, but as I consider how we learn and pass on knowledge, I’m wondering how much damage the cellular family and dual incomes are costing each generation in EQ. how much of the N type is caused by lack of intergenerational knowledge. So the peer group becomes even more important, as all other tribal groups are losing their connections to kids. And kids are losing their connections to other tribal groups.
This lack of other tribes to access, increases the importance of the peer tribe. More importantly, how does one learn to change tribes with so few options, and so little coaching? If you can’t switch tribes, it would make sense that breaking away from a tribe would be that much harder.

How does this affect agency?

User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 2487
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:16 pm

S doesn’t care about abstract ideas. She doesn’t care about freedom or autonomy. She doesn’t care why anyone would think of such things. She will listen attentively, understand, and not care.

And that is the contradiction that just stops me cold. How can someone understand, and not care? This can lead to lots of unpleasant conclusions about her character, that simply don’t match up with what I can see of her, so I need another perspective.

What do I understand, but not care about? Nothing.

Wait. No, that’s not true at all.

There are all kinds of things people try to explain to me, that I just don’t care about. Pop culture. Fashion. (7W5 likes to throw in fashion, or pop stars occasionally. She brought up Rhiannon at one point. I thought Rhiannon was a song by Fleetwood Mac, but I was guessing from context that she was a pop star. Google said I was right, I’m so proud. :geek: )

So why wouldn’t I care about pop stars? I mean other than they are all the same, making muzak that sounds like it was produced to an algorithm set to appeal to an audience that never heard music before. Come to think of it, that’s exactly what pop is. But I digress.

The question I should be asking is not why am I not interested in a type of music, but in the whole class of information relating to popular public figures. Why is everyone else interested in these people? What do they get out of it?
And I think (speculate) it has something to do with our instinct to watch our position within the tribe. That this survival mechanism manifests itself in pop culture today. It gives people something to rally around, or against. And many other issues of the day serve the same purpose.

So when I am talking about a subject, my mind is on the subject. But N types are focused on what their tribe thinks of the subject and how that affects their position. This is how they can both understand, and not care. The subject has no hooks, as all of their hooks tie back to their tribe. It’s not that they can’t understand abstract thought, but that it is painfully unimportant to them. What is important is how that relates to the tribe, and just as importantly, their position in said tribe.

I’m certainly not sure about this model, but it works better than the last one, so I’m going to kick it around some. What I like is that it better explains that contradiction, without disparaging their intelligence, because I really do think people are generally about the same intelligence, overall, just tuned into different spectrums of intelligence.

It also explains how the Atlantic is still in business, today. They have a reputation for “think pieces”, yet as we have shown in the associated threads, their accuracy is less important than their stories. In short, they are selling “approved thoughts”. Just enough information to know how to emote at parties for social approval, not enough to understand the issues, or how complex they are, or the history that would undermine the storyline. It’s not that their customers aren’t smart enough to process more content, it’s that they don’t care about the accuracy, or understanding the issue. They are instead buying a tool to help them signal to their tribe, and it works well for such. Accuracy and complexity would be detractions for such purposes, so it fits.

User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 2487
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:21 pm

So what does this mean to me?

First, that the way I have been promoting libertarian ideas is nearly useless. It’s not that people don’t understand how a free society of free men living lives of free trade could be better than our current system. It’s that there is nothing in there to catch their hooks. (Though BRUTE’s libertarian thread reveals some odd failures in some people’s imagination.)

I have been talking about increasing the size of the pie, but since most folks don’t care about the pie, merely that their share be bigger than the next guy’s. I may as well have been talking about making a machine to print out Applebee’s coupons. Unless one already has an interest in the subject, there’s not going to be a reaction. No hooks.

But why aren’t they interested?

Why does freedom work as a meme to sell French fries to self styled Patriots, but not to sell libertarianism, or ER, for that matter? I think buying Freedom fries is a signal to one’s tribe, of being more or less central (depending on social position, either could be the goal); but to most groups, avoiding their choices to add to savings sends an entirely different signal (the “I have more important things for my life energy than be like all of you“ signal), that is counter to most people’s concerns.

But I think it’s more than that. Freedom means responsibility. There’s just no other way for it to work. Unless I am free to face the consequences of my actions, I will always be beholden to the one who does.

And most people are taught to avoid responsibility like the plague. All downside, no upside. We should probably leave that to some expert, and focus on our sense of belonging, right? We see this whenever libertarian ideas come up. “wait, what? I would have to X” and whatever X is, seems silly to me, because of course I already do that, and wouldn’t trust anyone else to do it for me. I think this has more to do with my trust of others than anything else.

But that trust in the expertise of others, that they will make the better decision, is vital, I think. If the tribe has never let one down, or no more than it has let down one’s peers, the hardwiring is there to go to experts, and follow leaders. That’s the reinforced path. And deferring to experts and leaders allows people to specialize further, requiring less general effort, further reinforcing the need for experts and leaders. All the hooks around DIY and responsibility are negative, the hooks around buying solutions and deferring, are positive.

It’s no wonder people look at me like I’m insane when I talk about freedom. I may as well talk about my fascination with tattooing sharks in the wild. At least that would come with cool Instagram pics, I guess. :roll:

User avatar
FBeyer
Posts: 927
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:25 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by FBeyer » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:15 am

I feel bad for responding to your four long posts with a one-liner but I actually think it's relevant: Have you read Loretta Breuning's Habits of a Happy Brain? She's done research into some of the kinds of things you're talking about here, specifically the neurochemical rewards and when (and how) they're most strongly formed in humans.

I've peddled it on here before, so I'll take my chances and do it again. You already seem to be on the right track yourself :) Not because you're wrong, but because you've got some of the puzzle pieces already.

User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 2487
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:00 am

No worries.
I read "hungry brain", it's kinda like brain chemistry for dummies. It was enough for my purposes. As I showed in the meditation and Metacognition thread, I don't have much interest in the theoretical workings of the brain. I just needed to reprogram myself for weight loss, and this is part of the side effects of that.

I just wrote it out as a chance to look at it, and check my work. I am aware that reasoning my way to understanding people isn't the best way, but it's what I have. So I am trying to slow it down, and write out the basics, to see what people think I missed. I am crowd sourcing my error checking. ;-).

ffj
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:16 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by ffj » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:59 am

@rigger

Many years ago after I got through my own disillusionment phase, I realized several things:

People are motivated by self-interest, no matter how altruistic they seem

The self-interest is manifested by different internal factors unique to that person, with personality and environment both playing a role


The problems occur when I ignore rule number one and when I try to motivate or influence others using internal values they do not share. I have success when I can identify what makes people tick and can approach it from a nonjudgmental angle. The other problem is when you just don't agree with their internal values and can't validate them, even in a small measure. People are different.

Alright, that's enough philosophy for today. ;)

User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 2487
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:31 am

The other problem is when you just don't agree with their internal values and can't validate them, even in a small measure. People are different.
Yeah. I was running into that. That's why I created a neutral term "n type". I can't model something accurately if at the same time I am judging them. This whole exercise has been about reconciliation of statements and actions, without judgement. It's easy to just call hypocrite and walk away. I want to understand.

Smashter
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:05 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Smashter » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:36 am

Riggerjack wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:06 pm
Most kids never get a clean slate, where they get to reinvent themselves. Some get a chance as they go off to college, since nobody knows who they were in HS. But most never do.
First off, I am enjoying this series of musings. I think it's cool that you are experimenting with different ways of expressing yourself.

For what it's worth, I didn’t see much reinvention going on in college. It seemed like most people spent their 4 years being more or less the same people they’d always been. I didn’t know about everyone’s past, but that was my general sense.

Maybe it’s just really hard to reinvent once you get past a certain age, regardless of circumstances. Maybe once certain choices get locked in, it’s incredibly hard to change, almost in the same way it's hard to learn a new language after a certain point. Or maybe the staus quo bias is more powerful than we think.

This makes me think about my Dad. He told me recently that he knew after only two years of marriage that he’d made a terrible mistake by marrying my mom and that he wanted out. He seriously considered leaving, but he chose to stay because he already had two young kids.

He stuck it out for 27 more years before a series of traumatic events made him hit rock bottom, at which point he finally left. Now, he’s happier than he’s ever been. I am convinced the family would have been better off if he'd just left when he first considered it, but of course we'll never know.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is maybe the problem is not lack of chances at reinvention, but lack of courage or confidence?

User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 2487
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:17 pm

I guess what I'm trying to get at is maybe the problem is not lack of chances at reinvention, but lack of courage or confidence?
Maybe. But I know confident and courageous people who still don't think they can make significant changes in their own lives. They can barely comprehend my desire for self direction. They aren't lacking in mental strength or flexibility. They simply can't wrap their heads around wanting independence. This means to me that we have just entirely different rewards structures in our brains. So I'm trying to feel out how normal people think, assuming the best in them, rather than the worst (a habit that hasn't served me well).

Because I think a person can be both smart, and not be interested in the things I am, at the depth I am. I think this isn't a lack in them, it's more likely to be a lack in me. So I am modeling them, to check my assumptions, but really this is about self exploration.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 10233
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by jacob » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:23 pm

Kegan, Kegan, Kegan, ... (This is a dimension separate from personality and IQ and therefore it unlocks some explanatory power)

Read it: https://www.amazon.com/Over-Our-Heads-M ... 0674445880

Or at least read the following review which provides a good multi-level summary of the problem:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-revi ... 0674445880

User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 2487
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:26 pm

@ Jacob, I have " immunity to change", and "an everyone culture" available thru the library. Is there significant overlap, or should I seek out "over our heads" specifically?

Post Reply