Beliefs, Preferences and Delusions

[daylen]

I appreciate the time you spent laying out the border situation. I personally learned a lot.

[7Wannabe5]

Female bodies are, and always have been, used as powerful political signals. I would suggest that simply following the money will result in better solution.

[Hobbes]

I would suggest that simply following the money will result in better solution.

What do you mean? Which money?

[Riggerjack]

I think she is suggesting that I am too focused on trophy trees, and perhaps should focus on the monetary causes of the circumstances that lead to trophy trees.

But if there are causes beyond those I have listed, I don't know what they would be. I tried to politely hint at the worst parts, rather than go into details. And I'll be damned if I will go back to Texas to study more.

[7Wannabe5]

I am struck by the dissonance of how the politics of the "rape trees" is almost polar opposite to that concerning sexual assault accusations in Hollywood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_as ... ted_States

These trees are sometimes called "rape trees" by members of the Minuteman Project, and the term has been taken up by anti-immigration activists and politicians. According to Harel Shapira, in his book about the extrajudicial border patrol organization, "for the Minutemen, the rape trees are a powerful symbol of the Mexican male’s immorality and simultaneously imbue their own actions with valor; by patrolling the border, the volunteers are defending not just America but women, and not just American women but all women, even the ones who are 'illegal.'"

The Wikipedia article also suggests that women frequently purchase birth control before attempting border crossing in case they are raped. Horrific incidents involving trafficking of children put aside, I don't see how this is any different than another adult female choosing to take her chances on the casting room couch, UNLESS there is also some degree of culpability to be assigned elsewhere due to the extreme inequity of the severe economic conditions the Central or Southern American female is fleeing.

Since, I am a female individual who has been involved in intimate fairly long-term relationships with men from a wide variety of backgrounds/"tribal" affiliations, including Conservative African-American, Liberal African-American, Moderate Muslim Immigrant, Very Democratic White Guy, and Very Republican White Guy, it has not escaped my notice that the tendency to believe that men from "other tribes" treat their females like cr*p is a pretty much universal irrational blind-spot.

[prognastat]

@7W5

Well it's the common script used to make the other side the evil side. What's the quickest way to establish a villain in a narrative? Have him harm a woman in some way. I mean the quintessential narrative is one of the hero rescuing the damsel from the villain that abuses her. It's something quite primal in our psyche.

Also generally speaking very few cultures survive by treating their own women poorly. It is usually those considered outside the tribe that receive the worst treatment. Though this of course goes just as much for men considered not of the tribe. Unfortunately, we are a very tribal species. Though one could argue that this has also lead to our current status as apex species on earth so though it seems mostly harmful now who knows whether as a whole it has been a negative for our species or a boon.

[Campitor]

I don't see how this is any different than another adult female choosing to take her chances on the casting room couch, UNLESS there is also some degree of culpability to be assigned elsewhere due to the extreme inequity of the severe economic conditions the Central or Southern American female is fleeing.

The legal age of consent in Mexico is 13yrs old and in some places as low as 12 years. 12 and 13 year old girls, and younger, getting raped doesn't fit into the casting couch category of "quid pro quo". Not sure how this leap in logic can be made. Nor does a girl or woman getting sold into a prostitution ring fall into the casting couch category.

Since, I am a female individual who has been involved in intimate fairly long-term relationships with men from a wide variety of backgrounds/"tribal" affiliations, including Conservative African-American, Liberal African-American, Moderate Muslim Immigrant, Very Democratic White Guy, and Very Republican White Guy, it has not escaped my notice that the tendency to believe that men from "other tribes" treat their females like cr*p is a pretty much universal irrational blind-spot.

I find the casting couch and rape reprehensible regardless the country or ethnicity involved. Not sure how this rape tree thing turned into a virtue contest between ethnicities/countries for those involved in this discussion. I'm sure there are plenty of american scum with their own version of the rape tree. That rape trees exist points to the depravity and sickness of the INDIVIDUALS who are proud to put those types of trophies on display.

Rape trees are bad. We need to stop rapes. Stopping illegal immigration will stop the unwanted raping of women and your girls 13 yrs old and younger by human traffickers and smugglers. The only other way to stop it is by having 100% open borders but I don't think the US is ready for the millions of Latin Americans that will rush the borders. Rape is bad. Rape is fed and facilitated by our porous borders. Lets dry up the perverse incentives that a porous border provides.

[Hobbes]

@Campitor

So: I take it you're proposing closing the southern border to illegal immigrants...somehow?

[Campitor]

@Campitor

So: I take it you're proposing closing the southern border to illegal immigrants...somehow?

It's not rocket science - the only thing lacking is man power and some barriers.

[Hobbes]

Using the military I presume?

[BRUTE]

brute has heard that the majority of illegal immigrants arrive by regular commercial airline. they just don't take their flights back. how's the wall going to stop that?

[7Wannabe5]

@Campitor:

Obviously the behavior is reprehensible, but I don't see how a wall is going to improve the situation for some poor girl caught between a rock and a hard place, since the men with money will still be free to cross the border. Unless you are suggesting that the American military should engage itself in raiding brothels located just south off the wall.

[Riggerjack]

I am not happy about smuggling, and think just legalizing drugs is the right solution to that problem. But I don't think the rest of the country is ready to take that step.

But I am concerned about the interplay between smugglers and traffickers. With a constant flow of guest workers crossing the border clandestinely, at best, the guest workers just interfere with border security.

However, if one needs to move drugs across the border, this flow of guest workers is too good not to take advantage of.

One could just use them as mules, to move the drugs, and pay them. Of course this works better, if one keeps a hostage to ensure the discretion and cooperation of the mule. The mule is going to meet someone in organized crime on the North side, so ensuring that the mules are marketable, fully commoditizes the mule, and ensures secrecy.

Or one could use them to flush out patrols, by sending them first, and following behind with the drugs. I would like to think this is how it's done, but my experience with criminals says this is unlikely, when more ruthless templates are higher profit and more secret.

So my solution is to cut the flow of guest workers, while registering the ones who are here, and removing the incentives that pull them up here.

Then, if someone wants to smuggle, that's a separate problem. I honestly can't think of a way to stop smuggling. But we have asset forefieture laws to make that more expensive.

My concern is separating the guest workers from organised crime.

We created both situations, and allow them to coexist on our soil. Together, they are insoluble. Separated, we can address each, as effectively as we choose.

[Campitor]

@ Brute - as far as I know, no one is getting raped on planes as a pre-condition to boarding. I imagine that if you have money, and a valid visa to arrive legally by plane, the rape occurrence if it exists is small. If they overstay their visa, at least they aren't getting raped as a prerequisite to entry.

@7wb - enforcing the border deprives the rapists and sex slavers of their unwilling customers - no business means no rape opportunities. If everyone is forced through legitimate ports of entry, they can arrive safely knowing their passport and not their vaginas will be getting stamped or their panties hoisted to the nearest rape tree.

@Hobbes - It doesn't necessarily require the military but any suitably funded and adequately staffed force can probably monitor the border with a high probability of success.

@Rigger - you have some good ideas. It's an ethical shame that any solution that would actually help prevent crime, human slavery, and sexual abuse is automatically dismissed as xenophobic and anti-immigrant as if having a well guarded border prevents Washington from passing a common sense bipartisan immigration policy.

[BRUTE]

good point.

intuitively, brute is more for open borders than for closing them further. if welfare programs were toned down/didn't exist, how bad could it be?

[Kriegsspiel]

Open borders didn't work out too well for the native Americans, even with a lack of welfare programs.

[Hobbes]

good point.

intuitively, brute is more for open borders than for closing them further. if welfare programs were toned down/didn't exist, how bad could it be?

If folks are willing to accept rape as a 'cost of entry' as it stands now, even with the promise of at most minimal welfare, I suspect that open borders is gonna result in a rush to cross the borders.

I am not happy about smuggling, and think just legalizing drugs is the right solution to that problem. But I don't think the rest of the country is ready to take that step.

I fully agree drug legalization would solve smuggling, and am all for full drug legalization.

So my solution is to cut the flow of guest workers, while registering the ones who are here, and removing the incentives that pull them up here.

That's the very-high level approach that I was also floating; we were disagreeing on the specifics of how to remove those incentives. I'm curious: with so many replies now on this topic, has your thinking changed any on this point?

[Riggerjack]

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I am only in favor of closing off our southern border long enough to implement the changes necessary to make the border security less important.

Close the border, pass the guest worker program, register current guest workers, and a guest worker referral program, so those who don't have jobs, but want jobs, can have jobs.

I don't know how the current agricultural labor market works. Back when I was picking berries with them, farmers advertised in the classifieds. They must have something else now. But we need a system for farmers to get short term employment opportunities out there. When I was picking, the guest workers were Asian. And minimum wage would have been a raise for me and a pay cut for them. There needs to be a legal piece rate, or the program won't work.

Once the guest worker program is up and functional, the draw for new unregistered guest workers will dry up, since registration closed down. Then the extreme border security can relax.

There will still be smuggling to deal with, but that problem is easier to deal with when it's not disguised by the clandestine flow of guest workers.

[7Wannabe5]

Dunno. Might be kind of like attempting to allow only a certain number of properly registered guest deer into your garden. Permaculture Dilemma #178: How can I enjoy wildflowers that come back each year, but avoid triggering my allergies with ragweed? Systems-thinking answer would be....?

[Riggerjack]

Plant deer friendly plants in an area one wants deer, and less friendly plants as a border.

Nobody comes to America to enjoy our world class unemployment benefits, they come for the opportunity. We provide that opportunity in our current system in the form of unprotected underclass status, to our own disservice. We do this because our immigration laws are incompatible with our economic needs. When the laws are incompatible with society's needs, society turns a blind eye to violations.

I just want our laws and needs to align. Then there is no demand for under the table labor, and thus no draw for undocumented laborers.

And by documenting our current guest workers, we can tax them, and protect them, and provide benefits, as they deserve. With the added bonus that they are no longer camouflaging bad actors. Allowing more effective law enforcement.

Honestly, I don't see why this is so hard to communicate.