Lemur Journal!

[Lemur]

Also thinking of class conflict...I read an article somewhere linked on this forum about the labor/elite/gentry that I found interesting. It made me think of Thanksgiving and why they were always so interesting in my family:

Underclass - None
Working Poor - Dad/Mom/3 Brothers
Middle Class - Myself/Spouse/Sister/Grandparents on Dad's side
Upper Middle Class - One of my aunts and her husband
Elite - One of my aunts and her husband (where Thanksgiving was taking place)

The Upper Middle Class / Elite always had debates going on ...mostly political and fairly educated conversation. My Father would be yelling at the football game on TV. I found myself often adapting to who I was around. Uncle on the Elite side found me interesting as at least we could relate on investments/money talk but it is still a very much me on the receiving end of the conversations. I learn nothing from my parents and brothers; however , I typically do learn a lot from my 'elite' aunt/uncle and perspectives I don't normally consider. Its just crazy how all of our world views are so different from one another...

My elite/upper middle class family also ask intrusively about the struggles of the working poor side of the family. I find this very interesting! Like...they literally can't wrap their brains around the problems/obstacles etc and I'm often (or my sister) is used as a translator.

[unemployable]

Don't bring your problem into your house. At some point you either have to exercise tough love, or wish you had. You'd be reducing their housing cost by all of $350 each and will be bringing in every other problem they have, and for what benefit?

3.) Other problem: they all commute nearly 2 hours to work. That is part of the killer. Tried this one before and failed.

Unless their commutes are in all different directions, they should move closer to work pronto. They should ask their landlord if they can move out at the end of September (or even sooner) and whether LL can serve as a good reference. If they're a less-than-ideal tenant but have been mostly on time with the rent the LL should be thrilled to get someone else in there a month early.

Septic tank may be LL's responsibility unless it is otherwise spelled out in the lease.

Alternatively they should find jobs closer to their existing home. If they're truly minimum wage those jobs are all over the place and this should not be a problem.

Ugh what does a Lemur do and how should a Lemur feel.

Well I'm an alumnus of the world's foremost lemur research center, although lemurs weren't my major.

[Lemur]

@Unemployable

Thanks for advice. Helped me gather my thoughts on potential efficiencies...

As for me, I have seen this coming for a long -time. I chose the 'dig hole in sand, stick in head' route for a while since previous attempts failed. I should've exercised tough(er) love a long time ago. They still wouldn't have taken my advice but at least I would've been less internally conflicted. Its not too late...conversation needs to happen.

Your solutions were useful but again its on my family to actually listen. The septic tank is their responsibility per the lease and they've unfortunately not have been great tenants to the LL. Things have been broken and neglected...I'm sure the landlord would have no issue helping them out though :/

The commute is tough. Older brother works 40 miles south from home and Mother works 30 miles north from home. Mother refuses to leave job (only because she happens to not have any conflicts with co-workers though my mom's work history is very spotty) but this may be a benefit because my older brother does want to leave his job. He could find work near where my mom works and they could find rent much closer so commute can be mostly eliminated. That is one angle to use.

I'm not sure what advice to give financially....my solutions are laughed at: sell the real expensive vehicles, take cash and buy cheap $2k/$3k vehicles in full, use rest of cash to pay down debt and put some away for emergency fund. I understand the 'sunk cost' is a tough pill to swallow but this solution will surely will free up cash flow for bills.

[jacob]

What they're doing makes sense from a working poor perspective. The debt only exists in the abstract as payments. "Paying the bills" is considered an inescapable part/way of life. The idea of paying the debt off entirely is alien save for winning the lottery. The consequences of interest cost go unseen.

Reliable cars are prioritized because a breakdown/no-show can/will get you fired from an L4 job + the money for repairs on a $3k car is experienced concretely whereas the car payment or lease is just an abstraction. Also, a car gives you room to maneuver should you get evicted. The last stand, financially, of the working poor will be made at the "reliable car".

A working cell/smartphone (likely on a not-so-cheap plan) is a close second these days.

If 3 adults are struggling on 45k per year, it's not for the lack of money, but the way they spend it.

That said, consider to which degree the existence of yourself or your sister in their vicinity acts as a backstop on their current behavior. Another poverty assumption is that family will always be there for you. (This is also why those stuck/left behind in rural dead-ends with no prospects are often unwilling to leave.) Do you think they would change if it became clear that neither of you would bail them out?

Having electricity shut off is getting near rock bottom (although living w/o a function septic tank is also pretty harsh) ... so you might be able to gauge if they're ready to make changes based on that.

[unemployable]

As for me, I have seen this coming for a long -time. I chose the 'dig hole in sand, stick in head' route for a while since previous attempts failed. I should've exercised tough(er) love a long time ago. They still wouldn't have taken my advice but at least I would've been less internally conflicted. Its not too late...conversation needs to happen.

I wouldn't worry here; your first responsibility is to yourself. They won't become different people if you let them move in.

An experienced landlord will bend over backwards to make a bad tenant someone else's problem. Turnover costs, both hard and soft, pale in comparison to dealing with a deadbeat and going through the legal process.

What's it cost to drain a septic tank, like $300? You might consider paying that in exchange for drawing the line on their living situation.

The commute is tough. Older brother works 40 miles south from home and Mother works 30 miles north from home. Mother refuses to leave job (only because she happens to not have any conflicts with co-workers though my mom's work history is very spotty) but this may be a benefit because my older brother does want to leave his job. He could find work near where my mom works and they could find rent much closer so commute can be mostly eliminated. That is one angle to use.

This is your answer. Also if brother loses his car it is probably easier to share vehicles or use public transit if it exists.

Commuting 40 miles for a minimum-wage job must be one of those reasons why the poor are poor.

I'm not sure what advice to give financially....my solutions are laughed at: sell the real expensive vehicles, take cash and buy cheap $2k/$3k vehicles in full, use rest of cash to pay down debt and put some away for emergency fund. I understand the 'sunk cost' is a tough pill to swallow but this solution will surely will free up cash flow for bills.

You'd be giving them actionable advice. That's all you can do short of direct economic assistance (letting them move in). I would expect them not to take all of your advice, but that they do take some of it. Worrying about the cars themselves for now may be throwing them too much stuff and they may take it as excessive criticism. Changing their work/commute situation otoh gives them time and peace of mind back in addition to money.

[Frita]

Part of adulting is figuring out one’s finances. Some people learn quickly, others take longer, while there are those who never seem to get it. I can understand how stressful this is for you. You mentioned that your sister learned the hard way not to bail them out, yet they are once again in a pickle. If they actually ask for help, then consider what could actually give them skills (Perhaps this is a Dave Ramsey situation?).

[Lemur]

@Jacob

Never considered the 'reliable car' perspective. I do vaguely recall a conversation with my brothers about the car situation and they scoffed at the idea of a cheaper car because 'if it breaks down or needs a repair it will cost more!' ; however, it is interesting given this new perspective how they saw my advice here. Certainly my family has a spending problem and not an income problem.

Considering the degree of existence between myself and my sister, we're certainly a backstop and I didn't have to think about that more than a few seconds. While I have not supported financially (merely offering advice that goes unheard), my sister will cover a bill occasionally, drive someone to work when 'there is no money for gas' and spoil my Mom a bit...they've an odd "best friends" relationship. I put that in quotes because it is really unhealthy...my mom is your classic narcissist. While I was in the military, my Mother only contacted me once over a 7 year period...and it was because she wanted $900 to cover a mortgage payment when we used to own a home. That was a pivot-able moment for me because I declined and drew a line. For better or for worse, at the time I merely declined because I just didn't have the money and was still 'working poor' myself.

I certainly can't be a bailout and my sister does not want to either but she is quite a bit more closer in relationship then I am and much more susceptible to enabling. This is an odd situation since we're (myself/spouse) are roommates with my sister and one for potential conflict as we're not on the same page with this. This is why I've been leaning towards option 1 because I have tried the 'enabler' conversation with my sister but goes no where. If we split...I fear she will make a really terrible decision. We've mutually benefited greatly together for almost 3 years. Excel chart shows that we've both saved nearly $40,000 on split rent & bills. This could potentially come to an end as I know the dollar amount bill split method will not work should my sister team up with my family instead (in fact she would be far better off living on her own!)

My spouse is from an Asian country. She is quite surprised by my families situation because where she is from, it is very common for all family and extended family to live in one home and contribute financially. The system can work out really well if everyone pulls weight...

@Unemployable

One of the cars has to go for sure. Dropping my older brother's car frees up $500 a month. He is emotionally attached to his muscle car that he clearly can't afford though :/ Well if it gets repo'd I guess that problem solves itself...

@Bigato

On my spouse's side as well and I fully understand the dynamics of being an enabler as I've seen it live. Hero complex...yes I need to drop. Its frustrating to me to see such an easy problem to solve but seemingly nothing can be done. I feel like I've to be a leader in my family since I'm the only one that made it out and got educated...though I wasn't given educational or financial support. At 18, I got the 'your 18 now...figure it out" talk :/ . That made me fiercely independent...and luckily I joined the military; didn't see anything in my small town. Moving up a social class is statistically small and somehow I got lucky. Leaving your social class can leave you alienated though.

[Lemur]

@bigato

Thanks for sharing. It is interesting reading about different posters here and their family dynamics and how their family can either help or hinder their progression. In a perfect world, my spouse and I would be completely independent of family obligations so that we could simply keeping moving towards accumulation. By family obligations, the financial assistance that may be required and, on the flip side of that, no 'keeping up appearances' is required either (Elite families kids?). My spouse has much experience in this area coming from an Asian family background ... though at least in her case she is one of 9 siblings and everybody chips in to support the parents and sometimes random Nieces/Nephews so the individual contributions are smaller. I've never been a big fan of the collective society culture in this manner but it does have some benefit. I could see retiring in these communities much more fun.

In a odd kind of way, what makes my family situation a bit tougher is that my mother and siblings are not inherently bad people...never committed a crime, they don't partake in any form or alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc. The Mother is good at emotional abuse if your'e susceptible to it; but other then that most of their problems are due to poor money management and immaturity. I think that is what makes this somewhat of a moral dilemma for me because, for instance, if my brother was into drugs it would be very easy to say "hey screw off I don't want that stuff around my kid" and contact could be seized that way. Yes...this circles back to the hero complex.

I'm still contemplating my options...I default to doing nothing and that seems to work but it kicks the can down the road. I haven't been asked for direct support yet but I've had years of practice of saying no. I feel like the day I give a inch is the day that I am 'done.' Luckily I've always given some solid advice and that has always been to my benefit in arguments....because I can say "well I suggested A , B, and C and you did 'D.' Example, my brother was given $7k from a settlement last year (car accident that hurt his back from a drunk driver). He had the perfect opportunity to pay off his what was at the time $4k credit card and put the rest down in savings for an E-fund. He chose to instead use it to help finance the second really expensive vehicle my Mother did not need and blow the rest on god knows what. I explicit said not to do this and get a much cheaper Honda Civic or something...

Anyhow. Will update this situation as it plays out. I think this is important to post so lessons are learned for others reading involving family dynamics. Also helps me get my thoughts out so I do appreciate the responses.

[Bankai]

My personal experience is that throwing money at people who can't manage it won't solve their issues. I was in a similar situation once - a family member stopped paying bills for over a year while still having regular income; she was just blowing money on nonsense. I did help by sending over my two monthly salaries, which was actually a big deal for me as at the time I barely had any savings. Now, the person in question is still bad with money, hasn't learnt any lessons and regularly gets in trouble due to this. But I'm done helping; I made a promise at the time to myself and DW not to do this again and I'm keeping it. What makes it easier is that my advice is always ignored ('Save for retirement?? But I can die next month...').

So yeah, I would not recommend giving them any money, they have enough for 2 JAFI per person lifestyle as is. And I would definitely not take anyone in - this will ruin your family life. If you absolutely have to do something/help in some way, better just give money as this will at least limit the collateral, although it will set a precedent and make you an enabler. Some people really need to hit rock bottom to change. Postponing that might do them more harm than good.

The dynamics between you, your sister and wider family is also a complicated one and I don't see an ideal solution here. On the one hand, living together saves you both tons of money. On the other hand, if she really wants to get the rest of the family in, you might be better off parting ways - you & your SO will probably want to live alone at some point anyway so might as well speed it up while avoiding the worst outcome with all the family under one roof.

[Lemur]

Investments: Up to $134k. A boost from my recent bonus, salary raise, and investments being up. I think I'm solidly above $130k now. Took no time at all. With the raise, I am now automatically investing $500 every paycheck after-tax (post-401k as well) whereas before I was debating between $300/$400. In this setup, lifestyle inflation was non-existent from this raise. My spouse is also doing better after we decided to clamp down on tax estimations for her business (used a rough estimate before). Now our goal - we don't want a refund. We hope that our refund/owe is +/- $100.00. Its a fun game to try to estimate this to the dollar...

Physical Health / Diet: I mentioned last when I left some corporate training I weighed 187lbs.I track my weight everyday and do a 7-day average. After 1 week of dieting, I dropped to 184.77. After week 2, my official weight is exactly 184.00. Not bad to be down 3 lbs with relatively minor dietary changes. I eat 1700 calories a day (if you want to know why Google a TDEE calculator) M-F and don't go crazy on weekends (eat at caloric maintenance or slightly above). Will keep pursuing.

Mental Health & Other thoughts: Not so great. Overburdened by work stress, I have to lecture again in October and not nearly feeling up to it as I was last time...ugh the realization that this is more of a stressful moment that I gain nothing from (or did I gain from this and that helped my raise?). The benefits of personal growth is still there though...still need to get a W from this. Also family stress is dying down but they're struggling still. We've gone no contact. Still contemplating options.

Job: Crazy how quickly you can come down from a high from getting a bonus/raise. There has always been this '6 figure' goal of mine salary wise that now looking at it...its an arbitrary number. Why did I put so much weight on that? In any case, I told my spouse how I used to be in game development when I was a teenager and wondered why I didn't pursue that....maybe it was confidence at the time? Well I joined the military because no education funds....in any case; perhaps a potential post-ERE pursuit? I'm thinking more and more about post-ERE life. This could be detrimental to mental health though (I still have a 5 year + outlook).

Gardening: Still harvesting jalapenos currently. All cabbage is dead (squirrels + weather). Squash is still growing slowly but will probably not produce given that the weather is cooling down. My tomatoes are still hanging on and producing really tiny tomatoes.

Other: Need to find a new book to read. Not only to learn new things but help keep mind off other things. I need a rest.

[Lemur]

Declined to lecture this course again. Since it is a 'voluntary' function and I let them know about 3 weeks ahead of time, I'm sure they can find someone else. Worst case scenario they ask why and get slightly irritated ...but hey sometimes throwing a monkey wrench gets your voice heard. I don't like the way the course materials are set up and I think the course is ineffective in its current state. I would lecture again if I got more autonomy in regards to the materials. This is one of a long list of things I'm dropping...I need to step back, set boundaries with both job + family.

Had a long talk with my brother as well. Mother referred to my sister as I as "dirtbags" and other things in a nice voicemail to my sister for not lending $900 to my brother to save his car from collectors. Oh well. Its getting repo'd tomorrow. Interestingly, my brother actually seems relieved. Sure he still owes the debt but the car will be auctioned and sold (his debt will decrease) and as he said...he'll save around $700 a month (minus car payment, minus insurance, minus gas which had to be re-filled every 3 days!). He will still owe the debt but hey...its an abstraction right?

Again I gave him his action steps...if he so decides to stay together with the 3 they need to all move to a central location where commutes aren't split, vehicles need to be down to 1 and just 1. Money should be cast aside for emergencies. All actionable steps. Its on them, not me. My mother labeling us with rude labels...makes it easier actually to tell her to screw off. My brother's other option - go live on your own. Seriously...we all get one chance at this life. He is almost 40 years old....

I'm setting the stage for them .... you must change your behavior. We're not a backstop. If my sister decides to cave, that is on her too. A degree of financial independence has given me mobility to up and move whenever should it come to it. If I have to take a temporary hit in my savings rate to move to a HCOL area closer to work (and further from this impending disaster)...so be it. I think the mental health benefits will triumph.

[2Birds1Stone]

Good on you for making the hard (and right) choice. It's a situation I certainly don't envy.

[Frita]

Intermittent reinforcement makes changing hard, so good for you in holding strong. Over the years we have had issues with DS’s mom and stepdad wanting money as well as a couple of my former close friends. Once you hold firm on the “no,” it does get easier. I have noticed that others caving creates a drama shift to the nonlender as a target. May that not be your experience.

[Lemur]

Topics I've read up on recently...

1.) Adam Smith Wealth of Nations
2.) What causes some countries to be rich / others to be poor (basically boils down to quality of institutions, culture/religion and its effects on personal productivity and self-efficacy, and geographic location (ability to trade freely, climate, neighbors).
3.) This guy... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Kuan_Yew
4.) And this guy ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kagame

This is all to say that I've reconfirmed a belief in economics...productivity is important but also the institutions that allow productivity to take place freely. Unlike the whole system that seems seems to require unending growth (and when growth can't be found look elsewhere e.g China investing in Africa), I personally can get to a point where I don't need to keep being productive through my own labor...my capital will do that for me.

[Lemur]

Question I'm pondering today...do some people have to 'lose' to make our economic system work? Lose = 'Not profiting.' Let me explain...

The landlord likely profits when he rents out his apartment or home to you. That is okay. Perhaps you don't want to buy a property. He/She profits. Your job profits from you as well because if they pay you too much, they won't profit from your labor and services. When you buy your groceries, the grocery chain is profiting off the sales (unless they're selling loss leaders but you get my point).

Everybody profits...in fact you should be profiting as well. After you bring in income, and cover your expenses, there should be leftover funds. If you run yourself like a successful business, then you're profitable (and productive?).

So can this system even work if EVERYONE profits? Well ..maybe if everyone had the mindset of profiting, we would ALL be better off as productivity would shoot through the roof. This leads me to believe that the global economy is not a zero-sum game...at least it doesn't have to be. If everyone was educated and tried to profit...competition would certainly go up but so would the floor and average standard of livings - perhaps to the point where achieving ERE would be incredibly easy because everyone is so efficient and the economy is incredibly productive...On the flip side, if competition got so incredibly strong, those starting at the bottom will have a very hard time breaking in...they would be starting a chess game missing a few pieces...

[jacob]

Economists generally agree that free trade is mutually beneficial, that is, a trade would not take place unless both sides get something out of it. The squabble appears when the sides disagree whether they each got equally much out of it or one benefited more than the other. But as a rule, both sides always benefit.

Measured in benefits, an economy is thus a positive-sum game. Measured in fairness, the sum can go either way. The trade-off then becomes one of benefits vs fairness. Lots of politics obtain. This is where people start debating whether they would rather have a bigger slice of a smaller pie than a smaller slice of a bigger pie. Rationally (economically), one should only care about the absolute size of one's slice, but actual humans are generally the happiest when their personal slice is about 1/3 larger than the slices of other humans regardless of the size of the slice as long as it meets a fairly low minimum size.

[Stahlmann]

Hmmm.

I stopped being involved in reading random blurbs of egg heads who live on government dime (through "edukayshyn" or not) on both sides (people who got rich based on selling books about working hard, not necessarily worked hard btw), but I once posted guy who wrote some papers why rich countries gonna be rich (it"s like nobody like sharing their power).

if competition got so incredibly strong, those starting at the bottom will have a very hard time breaking in...they would be starting a chess game missing a few pieces...

Ding. Dong. We have a winner.


BTW I'm on networking event atm for small business looking for connections.

[Lemur]

Economists generally agree that free trade is mutually beneficial, that is, a trade would not take place unless both sides get something out of it. The squabble appears when the sides disagree whether they each got equally much out of it or one benefited more than the other. But as a rule, both sides always benefit.

Measured in benefits, an economy is thus a positive-sum game. Measured in fairness, the sum can go either way. The trade-off then becomes one of benefits vs fairness. Lots of politics obtain. This is where people start debating whether they would rather have a bigger slice of a smaller pie than a smaller slice of a bigger pie. Rationally (economically), one should only care about the absolute size of one's slice, but actual humans are generally the happiest when their personal slice is about 1/3 larger than the slices of other humans regardless of the size of the slice as long as it meets a fairly low minimum size.

Now I've been reminded...been looking for this.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... Tariff.svg

OTOH, it would suck to be on the losing side of a trade deal fair or not... I watched an interesting documentary on these wheat farmers in Senegal that are having trouble competing with European wheat. The European market simply has too many advantages due to less impacts from climate change (Africa is drying up) and large scale production capabilities that the small village farmers in Africa do not possess. Even after factoring in the transportation + shipping; the farmers can not even compete locally even with subsidies. They must adapt ...easier said then done. This also gave me a light-bulb that if I ever start a business myself - it would certainly have to be service/skill based and not capital intensive. Too many disadvantages on the latter.

[Lemur]

Investments: At $135k now. After-tax investments (usually $500) are being brought down to $250 this month to cover new front tires. Also need to start budgeting for a trip overseas with my spouse to visit her family. Not looking forward to that flight or expense but it is important to her. Remind myself to bring some books...

Physical Health / Diet: Lost more weight. I use a simple app to log my weight daily. I then export the results to a CSV file and compute a 7 day rolling average. I'm seeing slow but steady progress (-0.84 average weekly fat loss). I'm slimming nicely...if I keep this up eventually I'll have my abs back (I last saw them in 2013 but I was in the military working out 5x a week). Achieving this physical look while sitting on my butt in an office all day would be quite a feat.

Start - 187 lbs
Week 1 - 184.8
Week 2- 184.0
Week 3- 183.1
Week 4- 182.3


Mental Health: Better. Took it easy in September and October is looking busy but my energy is up despite dieting.

Job: My job found someone else that can lecture that course. I'm very relieved. My client work is going to be heavy in October (I work as a government contractor and this is our year-end close for the budget/accounting cycle) so its going to be busy and crazy and mud is going to be slinged and people (usually contractors) are going to be thrown under the bus. The best part about being an individual contributor is that you don't bear the brunt of the politics and other crap and if you're working for a decent manager, they usually shield you from the noise. Luckily I've a great boss so I'm looking forward to doing my part and making sure we're covered and his life is less stressful this quarter.

Gardening: Still harvesting jalapenos currently. Squash is hanging on. Tomatoes are dying. Its getting colder. Officially fall as my yard is covered with leaves. This is an opportunity to get a compost pile going? This was my first year making compost and I didn't make that much or use any...must have done something wrong.

Other: Watched an interesting documentary: Heaven on Earth (The Rise and Fall of Socialism). Also into astronomy/space stuff lately. My son definitely enjoys it. I think I will take him to the Kennedy Center in DC to see some of the space stuff. I think he will enjoy it. He knows all the planets, some of the planets moons, and even impressed me with distinguishing between rocky/gas giant planets. Not even 4 years old!

[Lemur]

A business nets profits can be distributed into 4 ways:

[*] Dividends
[*] Share Buybacks
[*] Paying down long-term debts
[*] Re-investment

The re-investment is further divided into the following:

[*] Acquisitions / Mergers
[*] Capital (factories, machines, computers, warehouses, etc.)
[*] Land
[*] Human Resources

So we essentially have 4 ways net profits can be distributed...but only one of those options directly creates jobs. (The re-investment portion). If a business is efficient, automated, or can't find ways to grow, then it only makes sense to do share buybacks (but only if the underlying stock value is undervalued...share buybacks for the mere purpose of pumping up EPS seems kind of useless to me) or to distribute dividends or pay down long-term debts.

If corporate taxes are raised then the 4 options above decrease by default (because net profits decrease). Shareholders lose and the business has less money to re-invest; however, society benefits. The society benefits part...there is your subjectiveness and debate. Not only about whether that money is spent efficiently but also finding that healthy medium where the owners of capital can benefit from putting there money to work for them but the workers and underlying class don't feel at such a disadvantage that they start demanding higher pay, going on strike, etc. (full blown revolution?).

Yes this escalated quickly. In world where so many jobs are going to be automated...I definitely want to be an owner of capital. But for those that don't choose ownership....from what degree do we sympathize with and support through direct social dividends (UBI), tax credits, etc...