Blog from Malaysia

[slowtraveler]

Did you spend more than a day in Kanchanaburi?

I'm thinking of visiting soon.

Thanks for sharing your post-FI journey. It's really inspiring. Makes me want to visit KL one of these days if I burn out on Thailand.

[physdude]

Well, one full day and two quarter/half days (arrived late evening, spent one day and left at 1 pm the third day). With the hellfire pass museum being closed on the full day, I spent the rest of that day after the train journey on a long massage and dinner at the hotel along the river which was very pleasant. I could have gone to Erawan falls which is usually combined with the hellfire pass museum but didn't since the chance is very high that I will do both together with Nakhon Pathom at some point in the not distant future. Kanchanaburi is also a place which is beautiful and relaxing that one can easily stay there for a week or two without feeling lost for things to do.

Do PM if you come down to KL! It does appear soulless at first (and, to some extent, it is) but it is modern, cheap and convenient and there are plenty of things to do.

[JeanPaul]

Why did you choose KL over Penang? I can see the pros and cons - Penang is cheaper, has better food, English communication is more universal, and it is more charming, imo (both architecture and surrounding nature). On the other hand, for the long-term, I can see that it might prove to be too provincial, running into the same people, with too few activities, etc. Also, KL is a better travel hub, although Penang is not bad either, and worst case, RT flights to KL are often like $30.

[Seppia]

Questions for you if you don't mind.
How is the job situation there? I know it is a terribly vague question and the real answer is "depends", but on average how hard it is for skilled* foreigners to get a part time job able to sustain expenses (at or even slightly below 0% savings) for a middle class lifestyle (think MMM approach rather than ERE) in KL?
How hard it is to work visa-wise? I would guess MM2H doesn't allow working, but is it "easy" to get a working visa once there? or any other (legal) way to work around that?
My idea of "FIRE" is to have a sufficient enough nest egg to sustain me and family on a 2.5% SWR (at current valuations), but I know I'd still be unable to not have any cash come in from work, thus being able to sustain a very minimalistic lifestyle regadless of nest egg.
I've been raised to be stupidly conservative with money

We would define middle class as such:
Shelter
We (wife and I) would be looking for a 1bd-1bath in a KL area that has to be
a) safe, as in "if you are an attractive woman in your mid-30s you can walk around safely on your own at 10.30pm"
b) reasonably close (15-20 minute walk) to good public transport (subway/train).
c) good mix between local and expat, leaning more towards local.
d) reasonably active life (can be museums, bars, restaurants, university, etc. just don't want it to be a "dormitory" or a "100% business" area)
I have been recommended the following areas:

TTDI (Taman Tun Dr Ismail)
Bangsar (maybe not local enough based on what I read here: http://www.kuala-lumpur.ws/where-to-stay.htm )
Bukit Damansara
Sri Hartmas

Needs/wants:
High deductible health insurance
No car
Open to eat local food
Would like to travel around SE Asia a bit

Thanks a ton!

*Me: Master's degree in Economics, 15y experience in sales (VP export markets) for large and midsize companies (4B to 250M$), quadrilingual English French Spanish Italian, have been co-running the kitchen in a small, mid-scale italian restaurant .
Wife: works in marketing and product development in the luxury business (perfumes) for big brands/players (12y experience), quadrilingual English French Spanish Italian

[physdude]

Why did you choose KL over Penang? I can see the pros and cons - Penang is cheaper, has better food, English communication is more universal, and it is more charming, imo (both architecture and surrounding nature). On the other hand, for the long-term, I can see that it might prove to be too provincial, running into the same people, with too few activities, etc. Also, KL is a better travel hub, although Penang is not bad either, and worst case, RT flights to KL are often like $30.

TBH, I didn't look at Penang that closely. I was planning to travel a fair amount in the first few years so travel convenience rated high in my priorities. I also like public transport and KL definitely wins out there with excellent train systems. To get to KLIA, for instance, requires me to just take a subway (2 min walk from my home) to the main rail hub (KL Sentral) and transfer to a comfortable bus to the airport and all this costs under $4 even though the airport is a good 70 km from my home. For most places in Asia, the flights from KL are direct so travel is actually fairly pleasant. For Singapore, the subway connects to the train station as mentioned above so I can get to anywhere in Singapore purely on public transport from KL rather conveniently. There really isn't much to do in Singapore but a lot of my friends are there so I have already been there twice.

From what I know, Penang is definitely cheaper for housing though KL is surprisingly cheap for food even compared to the smaller towns. English is very widely spoken here, so much so that I am finding it quite difficult to practice my Malay as people automatically change to English even if you speak to them in Malay. Penang does definitely have better architecture and surrounding nature though KL's parks are quite impressive. It is, however, unlikely to have anywhere near as many cultural events (KL is at least the hub of Indian cultural programs in Malaysia) though I didn't know about the many cultural activities until after moving here.

[physdude]

To Seppia:

MM2H would definitely be the wrong visa to use for employment unless you are over 50 as part time work is allowed then. If you do convert to a work visa, you need to cancel the MM2H visa. Work visas are not really available for part time work and are mainly for full time work and are tied to the employer. They also take fairly long to process from what I have heard but the number of foreigners working here means that it is probably not too difficult. Salaries are pretty low in US$ terms unless you have very special skills due to the low ringgit so even Malaysians try to work abroad for a few years to accumulate some saving, particularly in neighboring Singapore. Practically, working in Singapore and living in Malaysia would probably make more sense given your qualifications.

KL is pretty safe when it comes to violent crime - I rarely hear of any but there are a lot of cases of pickpocketing and snatch thefts around so it is mainly theft that people are worried about. Most of KL should be pretty safe physically for a young woman to walk around alone.

1 bed, 1 baths are not that common except in downtown KL since there isn't much shortage of space in Malaysia (my condo, for eg., is not designed in any sort of space efficient way even though it is in the city and there are lots of empty spaces around). An exception is the very high end condo next door to mine though the 1 bed 1 bath there is a very spacious one (that condo is even less space efficient and has a lot of secondary rainforest within it which is one of its highlights and which makes it feel very natural with the birdsong and crickets etc). However, given that even a 3 br condo within 10 minutes walk of a train station rents for well under $500 ($350-$400 is not that difficult to find) it might not necessarily be such a major issue to have a 3 br rather than 1 br. The 1 br apartments that I know of in downtown and in the condo next door actually rent for more than the normal 3 br ones (about $600 or so) since they are usually in new, high end condos with very good facilities. A moderate one like mine has a decent swimming pool and gym but they are not shining and new but perfectly serviceable while the ones in the high end condos will come with infinity pools, saunas, jacuzzis etc as standard unlike mine.

The areas you mention are all quite high end and Bangsar is definitely an expat area. The Malaysian Indian's house I go to to play bridge is in Bukit Damansara and, as I mentioned earlier, is a huge mansion with a large swimming pool etc. and a lot of the houses there are like that. TTDI and Sri Hartamas are similar from what I know but somewhat less high end. My own area, Wangsa Maju, probably qualifies as a mixed expat and local middle class area with expats probably dominating somewhat nowadays. The expats from western countries tend to settle in Bangsar, those from India and south Asia in KL Sentral (the main public transport and rail hub of Malaysia), the Japanese in Mount Kiara, those from the Arab countries in my neighborhood though this is all in overall numbers as you can find western expats in my place or KL Sentral, Arab and Indian expats in Bangsar etc. But the overall prevalence of Arab expats in my neighborhood explains that all the restaurants within 2 minutes walk are Arab ones but if one expands that to 5-7 minutes, one can find a lot of local ones as well.

Bars are not that common in Malaysia as you might expect from an Islamic country. The main exception is the central and expat areas of KL. Restaurants, particularly simple local ones, are -everywhere- and are open until late or 24 hours even in small towns, leave alone KL. A lot of locals will hang out until very late having snacks and tea or juices in these places - it the local equivalent of the pubs or the bars in the west. Some of these places might serve beer as well though that usually depends on the religion of the owner.

Museums are largely constrained to the central areas of the city and museum culture is not that big here though the main national and state museums are quite decent (the state museums of Sabah and Sarawak, in particular, are very good). The main arts and cultural events are also in the city center.

So, to recap, if you are okay with active life in the immediate neighborhood consisting mostly of restaurants and malls nearby (lots of those too), most of KL and Malaysia should be good (the Arab restaurants near my place close anywhere between midnight to 3 am and the nearest 24 hr local restaurant is about 7 minutes walk away). Central KL is well connected so as long as you are near a train station getting to the other things (museums, bars, etc.) is fairly straightforward (though you would have to take grab/uber if you plan to stay out late as the trains stop running around 1130 pm). Rent for a decent 3 br apt 5 minutes walk from the train a few stops down the line from mine would be about $400 a month. As I mentioned earlier, I pay $500 a month for mine for a 2 minute walk to the station and to be within a 15 minute train ride to downtown.

The universities are all usually far away from the cities with one or two exceptions and have large campuses and are not the hub of local life unlike college towns in the US. I wouldn't count on using them much myself.

Overall, I like my neighborhood though KL Sentral is another one I seriously think about since it is much more central with cheaper Indian food, Indian cultural programs and many 24 hour restaurants within it and with the fantastic Royal Lake gardens and botanical gardens within a few minutes walk. It is also a bit more expensive (a 3 br apt here costs around $700-$1200 a month from medium end to brand new, high end high rise condos and there are some seriously posh places like the St. Regis residences where the price tag can reach $4-5k a month though it seems to me to be catering to those who have too much money to know what to do with - like who really needs a personal butler to be included in your apartment rent?).

[Seppia]

Fantastic, thanks a ton for the info, I really appreciate you taking the time.

[physdude]

High deductible health insurance is pretty cheap - $25 a month or so. Medical costs are also quite affordable even without insurance.

Traveling in SE Asia can be pretty cheap but it obviously depends on how you want to do it. I like to mix it up staying in some nice hotels and some basic ones depending on the situation. If I foresee any financial issues at all, I suppose the nice hotels bit will be the first expense that I will cut as it is not necessary but nice to have. For eg., I stayed in pretty good hotels in Bali and in Bangkok recently both coming out to about $100-$125 a night (the latter for Bali but breakfast was included). However, you can go all the way down to say $30-$40 and get perfectly serviceable and decent hotels in both these places and these are relatively expensive places in SE Asia (excepting Singapore which is in its own league). Then, there are gems like this fantastic backpacker hostel in Taiping at under $15 a night (a small private room with shared bathrooms - there was never any waiting and they were really clean and nice, the hostel itself was a very beautiful large house with a lot of clever, original art as an artist used to stay there full time and in many ways this was comparable to some of the nicer places I have stayed in) and the small hotel I stayed in Lake Toba which came out to $15 a night with attached bathroom and a balcony overlooking the lake with a great view (Lake Toba is an insanely good deal IMO if you just want a pleasant vacation - my traveling is more to explore new places and history but if I had to cut expenses further, I could just go to some place like this or Taiping).
Flights are pretty cheap as long as your schedule is flexible. My return flights to Bali and Bangkok both came to about $150 with baggage fees included, Medan (for Lake Toba) was $30 with baggage also and if you are really committed you could find slightly cheaper flights too. Trains are an even better deal and I actually prefer them if I can take them - the ones in western Malaysia are very modern and a ticket to the Thai border should be only about $20, the Thai ones are distinctly less modern but decent enough and I actually like the lowest non AC class as it is great for photography. The fares are again rather cheap (about $6 from Sukhothai to Bangkok in this class, $15 in second class AC - double this for Chiang Mai to Bangkok). Cabs, grab and uber are likely to end up costing you significantly more than the train.

Overall, I find I spend about about $100 a day on a 10 day holiday on an overall basis (flight, hotel, food, local transport etc) with my current way of doing things (my Thailand trip for instance though Bali was more expensive) but my Medan cum Lake Toba holiday was less than half that and just as nice IMHO. But if you are looking for under $50 a day everything included you are probably looking at putting a fair amount of effort into economizing.

Overall, my thoughts on travel given the wide choices available are that it is really the time that is the constraining factor rather than money for those of us that have worked in developed countries. One can have a very nice vacation even on a fairly low budget (I would classify $100 a day for all expenses on a holiday that includes what would be luxuries in developed countries like massages etc as fairly low but YMMV - my daily allowance when travelling while working which was excluding the flight was much, much higher than this though a lot of it was to very high cost places like Zurich or Mumbai) and a pretty decent one on a very low budget is very possible though that will limit the choice of places (Bali, for one, would be out) to what is still a fairly wide range.

I hear you about being nervous about cash flow. I have about 10 years of expenses (without travel or too many luxuries but easily covering the essentials) in cash to mentally deal with portfolio fluctuations but I still find losses hard to deal with psychologically especially since the weekly P/L for the whole portfolio could be over two years expenses and having a 20% drawdown which is fairly normal really does not feel good psychologically and is a huge amount in local terms. While I know that I can be happy without traveling much, reading books, going to the local parks, playing bridge etc. and that even a fairly drastic destruction of my portfolio would still give me many years of breathing room (even longer if I move to a smaller town), there is still something about seeing a monthly loss of $50k that makes one feel more than a bit insecure.

[Seppia]

This is super informative, thanks a lot again.
My wife and I are naturally frugal but since we are lucky we don't need to go full-ERE to save 66%+ (so we don't), we're more of the MMM type, which I would describe as "optimized upper middle class living".
Based on what you describe the costs you indicate seem in line with what we would experience.

[physdude]

As I return from playing bridge at Bukit Damansara, I must say whoever gave you those neighborhoods as middle class or upper middle class must have a pretty warped view of what constitutes middle class. I got there a bit early today and decided to walk around a bit and saw many enormous mansions (probably 10-12 bedroom at the very least) together with "small" 4-5 bedroom houses. There was a small mall nearby with a lot of full pubs which is unusual for a Malaysian residential neighborhood (prices similar to downtown) coupled with the usual cheap local food. I would be surprised if you could find something as small as 3 br or anything under 2000 sf there. While that isn't particularly large even for cheap middle class houses in small towns here, the glimpses I got through open windows indicate very well equipped houses with all the mod cons (nice US suburb standards - think Lake Forest or Highland Park in Chicagoland) and very well done up. Most of the residents are clearly not just ringgit millionaires but USD millionaires as well. Large, cheap houses in the small towns will usually not have bathtubs or walk-in closets, leave alone swimming pools, but all these would be standard in Bukit Damansara (okay, swimming pools only for the larger ones of course).

Malaysia is still the only non-developed place I have seen where house sizes and facilities are routinely about the same standard as the ones in the US suburbs. Houses in Bukit Damansara can be easily compared to those in some of the best suburbs in Chicagoland like Lake Forest or Wilmette though without the lakefront. In fact, an overarching feeling I always get in KL is that everything feels like a developed country except for the prices - many Indian cities, for eg., are far more expensive but clearly nowhere near as nice. The story in the countryside is obviously different but that is another story and I haven't seen any real third world style poverty even there.

[Seppia]

Again great info, thanks a ton.
My friend has lived there for 7 years as an expat, so I guess his view is skewed upwards. I would probably have to come see it for myself, I just hope that in the meanwhile (3-5 years) prices do not skyrocket there.
You and the animal have pushed me to start my journal, so thanks for that too.

[physdude]

Due to curiosity, I did a quick perusal of property ads for Bukit Damansara and was very surprised at what I found. They indicate that houses there are actually more expensive than the most expensive areas in Chicagoland which is actually very surprising to me given how cheap housing here usually is. However, it did feel at least as posh as the best suburbs in Chicagoland and one can see very high end hifi systems from the windows (think Bang & Olufson), the house where I play bridge has things like Saeco espresso machines in the kitchen, large wine coolers (and wine here is more expensive than the west) etc - this place is as high end a residential area that I have ever seen including anywhere in the US. Most houses are over US$1 million and some are over US$4 million and come with facilities such as elevators, swimming pools etc. I overestimated the number of bedrooms since I didn't account for the inevitable domestic staff quarters that will be incorporated into such housing. For example, see https://www.propertyguru.com.my/propert ... 7C%7C2%7C1, https://www.propertyguru.com.my/propert ... i-27014714 (very close to where I play bridge), https://www.propertyguru.com.my/propert ... fl%7C1%7C1 and others.

From the limited number of people I know who live in that area, they are usually USD multimillionaires who could actually retire anywhere in the world in luxury and chose Malaysia or expats in very senior positions where the company pays for the rent and who earn very good USD salaries (though the list will probably include the prominent local politicians and businessmen - they are just very far from my circle). Of course, the good thing is that one can live quite comfortably and even luxuriously in KL and Malaysia without being in quite such a place.

For my own story, I took a quick weekend trip to Penang once I found out that the Four Points hotel there is just SPG category 1 and so very cheap using points. I took a bus there since the train was booked out - the bus station is a much longer subway ride from my apartment and the bus is obviously slower but the buses here are quite decent and the 5 hour ride was quite pleasant as it passes by some nice forests and hills - a pretty good deal for US$10. I used uber a lot in Penang since I was not familiar with the local bus routes but most rides are still under US$2 with the longer ride from the bus station to the hotel costing about US$5. The hotel is in a brilliant beachfront location and the beach would be considered a very nice one anywhere outside this region but when the basis for comparison is Langkawi, Phuket etc. this is just considered average and therefore quite empty even during the Christmas period with only a few people around most of the time except for a couple of hours in the evening and even then it is very far from being crowded. Oddly enough, this was despite there being a few relatively good hotels along the beach along with some luxurious bungalows and a few high rise apartments (perhaps people care more for the sea view here and prefer to go the relatively short distance to Langkawi for the brilliant white sand beaches and don't really care for the decent beach right there?). I saw some of the world heritage sites I missed the last time around while enjoying the beach in the evening and night as it was great for a long pleasant walk. I returned via the ferry (a nice ride with a great city view and it is actually free from the island to the mainland while the trip the other way costs the princely sum of US$0.30 and both trips include free shuttle buses to the train station!) and train ($20 for the fastest train from there to KL which includes some snacks and these are very nice, modern trains). Even including a reasonable exchange rate for the hotel points, this 3D/2N trip came out to just about US$100 everything included. And this is with staying in a nice hotel on the beach - there is no way one could do this at this price in India for example, leave alone HK or the west.

[Dunkelheit]

Thanks for sharing your new retired life with us. After reading your journal, Malaysia seems a very good option to retire not-so-frugal style (depending on the city) enjoying some western "luxuries" plus the capital gains taxation. I take notes for the future!

In one month my wife and I will be in Singapore and Malaysia for some weeks. Our itinerary is quite free, but in principle we will ride from Singapore to Melaka, then to KL, Penang and Cameron Highlands. Whether we visit the eastern islands depends on the weather, which seems quite bad in this season. We would appreciate a lot some recommendations from a newborn malay like you

Thanks!

Dunkelheit

[physdude]

I must confess I have never been to the eastern islands (unless you count Pulau Rawa which is very close to Singapore as one which I suppose it technically is) but everyone tells me they are amazing. I am also waiting for good weather to visit them. Your selection is good. If you have the time, I would add Taiping which is a very underrated location with a great zoo, night safari, lake gardens and a nearby unspoilt hill with very nice forest views which you can take a jeep up to or which you can walk up (no private cars allowed). There is also a nice fishing village nearby where you can take boat rides to see fish farms and wild eagles feeding (I had the best ever otak-otak (barbecued fish paste and spices in a coconut leaf) there - not to be missed if you can find it). The main disadvantage of Taiping is the incessant rain as it is the rainiest place in peninsular Malaysia which is itself pretty rainy but that is probably why the forest up the hill is so nice. It also has a brilliant backpacker hostel which you can find on facebook and which you should stay in if you go there unless luxurious accommodation is absolutely essential. The owner is a really great guy and runs a fantastic house with real passion. Ipoh city (near Cameron highlands) is also worth a stop with a couple of attractions though it can be done as a day trip from Cameron. I am surprised you left out Langkawi which is the best beach on the west coast by far and a really nice place in general. It is also duty free and a good place to replenish your wine/beer supplies on the cheap.

[physdude]

I suppose one point which I take as given about living in a new place is some capacity for adjustability. Things are never going to be exactly the same as anywhere else. For eg., I see many complaints by some expats that the kitchen and bathroom sinks don't have hot water supply (only the showers and bathtubs), lack of clothes dryers even in high end housing etc. These are explained by the warm weather and the penchant here for even the well off to air dry their clothes. The biggest adjustment might be the fact that the water supply is generally not considered to be of drinking quality so that one has to either boil it before drinking or use one of the ubiquitous filtered drinking water vending machines. OTOH, the water is supplied free of cost (I get a bill of $1.50 a month which includes a subsidy for the same amount so that the final bill is 0) and looks very clean. Cooking gas and electricity also seems to be heavily subsidized and my bills are embarassingly small - less than $10/month combined but that might be because I am used to heat and only use the fan rather than the AC and don't cook much. I obviously don't deserve the subsidy not being a tax-payer but I am not complaining. As a foreigner, you are, however, subject to a $2.5/day tourist tax for hotel stays (not applicable for Malaysians) and higher entrance fees for many attractions but I still get the feeling that I am coming out ahead in this.

(I suppose a Malaysian moving to the US could likewise complain about the unavailability of ubiquitous 24 hour cheap multi-cuisine restaurants etc.)

[Dunkelheit]

@physdude: Thanks a lot for the advice! we will take a look at Taiping. It sounds an interesting place to visit and it's in the middle of the way between KL and Penang, so maybe we stay there for a couple of days. We had omitted Langkawi because we wanted to visit the eastern islands, but it depends on the weather which seems to be quite bad for this season, so maybe we spend some days in Langkawi or leave the beach experience for the great and cheaper islands of Cambodia and Philippines which would be our next destinations. We have read that Langkawi is an island for not-so-frugal tourism, more similar to the islands in Thailand, but maybe we are wrong...

Thanks again! We will follow reading your blog

[2Birds1Stone]

Hey physdude!

Was pointed to your blog by someone in my own. I'm very much interested in moving to SE Asia with the hopes of getting to ERE sooner than later.

If my budget were $1500/month for a married couple, ALL IN. Would that be a comfortable lifestyle with a home base of KL or Penang with some travel around the rest of SE Asia?

I'm strongly considering ERE when our combined assets get to ~$500k USD which would give us $1500month + $2000/yr to spend on international flights once a year to see family in USA.

[bepresent]

Also interested in anyone's experience in SE Asia

Single Male, with no kids - what net worth would be required by 30 to retire (+ hop around and live in multiple countries)?

No fancy cars, mansions, just a decent standard of living.