classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

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wolf
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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by wolf »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:24 am
The bottom line is that I constantly oscillate between: a) c_L you have a tolerable job that pays six figures, man the fuck up and do it for three more years and get to real FI. and b) c_L you have saved more money is the last 3 years than you even thought possible in a lifetime, why the fuck are you doing something that isn't bringing you joy, man the fuck up, quit and find a series of lifestyle gig's that do.

Semi-ERE/my current OMY attitude is supposed to be a compromise between these two contradictory voices.

No matter how low my WR gets, I'll always still have concerns if financial capital is my only source of income/means of supporting self. So what's the point of full FI? (this is also why I'm ERE and not MMM) OTOH, I'm primed as a money saving machine at the moment. Trying to get back to this point at another time, in a different situation, would take quite a bit of effort. So why not stay on the bus when it's ever-so-tediously heading to the place I want to be?
This post of you resonates very well with me, especially the thing with the low WR and the point of full FI. I sometimes wonder if it's only in our heads, but then I remember also that it's really hard money. The topic (semi-ERE, lowest WR as possible, Full FI) has many layers. And it is influenced by habits, biases, emotional/personal issues, etc. which makes it (more) difficult to change the status quo, although there would be advantages.

Like Jin+Guice wrote, I tend to develop in that kind of thinking. Maybe that's another insight along the journey of ERE and through life generally.
Jin+Guice wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:43 pm
3) Numbers and math. I like them too, but don't let them fool you. $x doesn't make you free. You make you free. Money is just one of the tools you can use.

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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by jacob »

Also consider that making money is a generic mean of being connected with other people and the world at large at least for most environments. Such connections also provide meaning. You give something to others and the fact that they give something back demonstrates that both value the transaction as peers (this does presume the existence of peers). Another way would be to have abundant resources and giving them away.

This is not so much a comment on "concerns" but more a comment on what comprises the post-FI role.

The point of full FI is to remove any financial risk. However, it has been argued (particularly by Ego) that removing all risk might not be the smartest play. I think it depends.

classical_Liberal
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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by classical_Liberal »

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classical_Liberal
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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by classical_Liberal »

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suomalainen
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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by suomalainen »

jacob wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:43 pm
t has been argued (particularly by Ego) that removing all risk might not be the smartest play. I think it depends.
Any citations for this? Or thoughts on key words to use searching ego's posts? I'd be curious to read those and I don't think s/he's around any more.

Fish
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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by Fish »

@suo - Unless I’m mistaken Jacob is referring to Ego’s persistent advocating for interdependence (as opposed to mere independence which most of us seek here). Here’s one example of such a post: viewtopic.php?p=134852#p134852

I can’t find an example of a single post which espouses Ego’s views comprehensively but interdependence is a consistent theme in his posts. This angle is generally lacking in the FI/RE space but Vicki Robin has also discussed interdependence somewhat.

@CL - From this fatFIRE perspective, the problem is not your “high” expenses but over-allocation of your time toward a job that you don’t really enjoy. This is a problem ERE was designed to solve but maybe the solution is to move toward the 1 shift/week sweetspot if the PT option exists, while diversifying into other relatively pleasant income-generating activities that you pursue without risk of burnout. Much more easily said than done.

Apologies if it seems as if I have a hard time relating to your situation. It could be that one of my strengths is the ability to tolerate the monotony of a full-time career.

7Wannabe5
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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I think nursing and teaching, especially teaching in a challenging setting, are similarly demanding professions. I agree that 1 or 2 days max/week is the sweet spot, but the upside to just cranking through a few very short-term full-time assignments, which is what I have been doing this year, is the complete freedom of off-time. Also, my experience was that it was very difficult to avoid constant requests to work more. I had to invent other commitments.

That said, I don't quite understand your point about having to cover your housing expenses if you work 1 day/week. I mean, you still have to cover your housing expenses even if you are completely retired.

classical_Liberal
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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by classical_Liberal »

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7Wannabe5
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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Gotcha. I am always running similar triangulations. I think a good solution might be to purchase housing in work city and rent out all but one room, or even just leave yourself the garage and someplace to park an RV, like Jean did. The upside being that it would diversify your investment portfolio. The downside being that you would be buying yourself second part-time job of landlord. Actually, it would be more like 4th part-time job, because you would still have to, at the very least, be your own Investment Manager and your own Frugal Home Economist. Passive is a myth, because there is no escape from entropy.

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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by Jin+Guice »

@c_L (In response to your response to my, you should lower your expenses quote, apparently I don't know how to imbed multiple quotes and am too lazy to figure it out): Have you considered how much less you'd spend if you didn't have to work that much. I've found this very conducive to spending less over time. I still estimate that I spend 1/5 of my budget on work expenses but I've been able to reduce these over time as I've become less stressed about my job and work less. Now I usually bike to work and only buy food there ~1/ month, which is where all the expenses were coming from. It took me about a year to start biking to work regularly though (have to get up at 5 a.m. instead of 5:30 and it's often 80 degrees in the morning here in the summer).

Reading blogs started by those who were already FIRed or about to FIRE (*cough* Jacob and MMM *cough*), it's easy to forget that some of the things they were doing took several years. I think Jacob said it took him 2-3 years to get in shape, and he was never fat only weak. Similarly, I've found that once you get down in the 2 Jacob range you've cut out most easy expenses and cutting the budget further takes real effort. The closer you get to 1 Jacob the harder it is. Not buying shit you then put directly in a closet is time and energy saving, installing gardens and learning to use them is time and energy intensive. The point is, at a certain spending level you either need to 1) make real life changes (smaller house/ no car) or 2) develop a skill/ habit that will take time and effort. Having more time and effort available to you is very helpful in these scenarios.

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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by jacob »

I think this can be described on an s-curve where x is effort and y is spending.

Most of the effort in the weak exponential effort is "mental". There's a lot of thinking and arguing before anything gets done. If other people are involved, this part of the journey becomes so much longer. This part might be worth a 10% reduction in spending as a few easy changes are made. (For example, eating out less often.)

Then there's a linear part that follows once everybody becomes convinced of the new vision. Expenses get reduced according to how much effort one puts into building skills to find replacements. This will get most people up to a 50% savings rate on a median income. (For example, cooking almost all your own food.)

Finally, there's a logarithmic (logistic) part in which the goal begins to resemble an autarky or maybe just a strange hobby rather than just saving ever more money. If one remains a consumer, it makes little sense to develop further skills here as it's much easier to just make more money. I think most people never enter this domain. In fact a lot who do tend to do so with less money that FI. (For example, growing and preserving almost all your own food.)

Using the food examples, at ~$1800/year, food is our biggest non-financial expense. (Financial expenses like re taxes, utility fees, insurance, ..., which are de facto mandatory, comprise over 60% of our total expenses!) However, while possible, it would take a huge effort to become self-sufficient in terms of food on suburban backyard lot. While this is worthwhile for other reasons, it makes little sense from a monetary perspective.

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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by Jin+Guice »

jacob wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:34 pm
I think this can be described on an s-curve where x is effort and y is spending.
Damn you and your s-curves Fisker!!!! This is exactly what I was saying though.
jacob wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:34 pm
Finally, there's a logarithmic (logistic) part in which the goal begins to resemble an autarky or maybe just a strange hobby rather than just saving ever more money. If one remains a consumer, it makes little sense to develop further skills here as it's much easier to just make more money. I think most people never enter this domain. In fact a lot who do tend to do so with less money than FI. (For example, growing and preserving almost all your own food.)
I think a lot of the people here are at about this point. I guess this is where ERE breaks away from traditional FI, which is also why a lot of us are here. My theory again is that many here start to enter this domain around 2 Jacobs, which makes this point interesting. I also think it's worth noting that, even from a purely FI standpoint, it's still worth working to reduce expenses here because reducing expenses by $1,000 annually forever reduces needed savings by at least $25,000, potentially more for this crowd, which could easily be equal to a year of saving. The start of (this particular) logistic curve is much more linear than the end of it so it's much easier to go from 2 Jacobs to 1.5 Jacobs than from 1.5 Jacobs to 1 Jacob. There is also generally a minimalist alternative to Jacob's web of goals alternative. If you haven't tried DIYing a bunch of shit yet because you're in the linear part of the s-curve this might not seem important, but I find it helpful to remember I could always just not have the thing instead of learning to make/ fix it, mostly because my DIY chops are shit.

Anyway, now this is a 3 part response where my only point is that it's easier to reduce expenses once you don't have a job, especially if you've cut out all of the easy stuff.

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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

If you consider the example of Suelo or even Vicki Robin's experiments with becoming a locavore, what can happen is that the strange hobby-sets of autarky can start to morph into realization of profound interdependence with environment which may transcend concept of private property. IOW, you start to see the flows/funds of resources other than money more clearly, and the small contracts humans make with each other within the large scope of the laws of nature. But, you might still sometimes watch TV while eating Cheesy-Pops.

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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by classical_Liberal »

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7Wannabe5
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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I can't recall whether you are already doing this to some extent, but given that you are interested in health, fitness, nature and travel, trading in your car for a bicycle might be a good move. Although I am sometimes inclined towards making fun of MAMILs, I have to say that the retired men I know who took up or expanded biking as one of their primary hobbies stayed in very good condition. My ex-FIL biked the Lewis and Clark trail at the age of 69, and his wife, who was still running a small business, would drive to catch up with him at various junctures. So, if/when your GF changed locations, you could take your time biking to catch up with her.

Systems analysis as a hobby can be done anywhere. Systems creation/maintenance is much more difficult when you are migratory. However, your personal health scape and development of erudition or skill sets which need minimal equipment are possibilities. I am currently reading a very good book on habit formation, "Atomic Habits" by James Clear, which I think is helpful in terms of seeing your life-style, and ultimately your identity, as a system of practices.

wolf
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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by wolf »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:07 am
11/16/2018
Years saved: 12.2yrs (8.2%WR) with estimate 20K annual spend.
How do you spend those 20k p.a.? Maybe you could give us a hint, where optimization could be done?
Probably you already know for yourself what could be done, in order to reduce expenses?
What change would be radical/innovative, that would lower your spending?

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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Hey c_L, I'm close enough w/ spending for 2018 coming in @ 2.02 JAFI if you exclude vehicle depreciation.

This is definitely the point where you have to be willing to make out of the box moves to further reduce spending. House hacking, living in an alternative living space (van, boat, motorhome etc), dumpster diving, or maybe working in food service where you don't pay for food.

@wolf, I did notice in the same post that c_L is looking to bring his spending down to $15k for 2016, that should prove a good exercise to figure out what is a want vs. a need.

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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by Jin+Guice »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:59 am
If you consider the example of Suelo or even Vicki Robin's experiments with becoming a locavore, what can happen is that the strange hobby-sets of autarky can start to morph into realization of profound interdependence with environment which may transcend concept of private property. IOW, you start to see the flows/funds of resources other than money more clearly, and the small contracts humans make with each other within the large scope of the laws of nature. But, you might still sometimes watch TV while eating Cheesy-Pops.
This is a great summary of the book. I think ERE is actually a permaculture book.





wolf wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:13 am
I'm curious to ask any others reading who have reached "2 Jacob's" or less of spending; is there a consensus wrt J+G's opinion of it being the approximate point of the final stage in @Jacob's comment?

My 2018 spending will be somewhere in the range of 18K (2.3 inflation adjusted Jacobs). Which means I'm near or at that point. I had wrote about some frustrations several months back, feeling I was completely missing something critical about ERE-level spending/consumption. Maybe I just haven't been willing to put in the required effort. Previous progress was quick and easy post-contemplation phase, maybe I expected more of the same?
While it will differ per person and situation I do think that the actual cut off point for effort is closer to 1.5 Jacobs than 2.3. 0.8 is a small number but $18,000 is 80% more than $10,000, which sounds much larger. When you are really a zen master you will know that the actual dollar amount is irrelevant and that you simply seek the point where the marginal utility of every dollar is actually maximized. That term has enough bullshit in it to justify any spending level, but if you really ruminate on it, you'll realize that the optimal trade off between living your life in a state of misery (aka paid employment) and spending your time as you wish is very much in favor of freedom. Personally, I think that earning 8-10K is more ERE than "passively" getting it from investment income, because it's simply more interesting. But maybe I'm biased because living on 10k is trivial to me and I know basically nothing about investing.

At any rate, what I've been trying to convince you of is that if you don't like your job you're at a fine point the semi-ere. You have a job that is, more or less, scalable in income an hours and a bunch of money. You've changed careers and made bold moves before. Fulltime work is an aberration of the human condition and basically everything is easier without it. I think it'd be much easier for you to reduce expenses without a fulltime job, given that you're at the point where reducing expenses starts getting slightly challenging.

wolf
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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

Post by wolf »

@Jin+Guice: I learn from your answer as well, but I didn't write what you quoted.

classical_Liberal
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Re: classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

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