classical_Liberal's Semi-ERE

[AxelHeyst]

I'm partial to VW Westfalias for livability and maneuverability but I'd never pay that kind of money today.

DW has a westy. You're not wrong about the price - she got it for a song, but has put in a lot since rebuildling the motor etc.They're either expensive, or their expensive. God help you if you can't work on them yourself, because someone's going to have to be dumping hours in to them at some point.

The pop top improves dissimilar sleeping schedules, but only by a little bit. If awake person stands up, their face is about 2" from sleeping person's face. So the person who likes to snooze needs to also sleep like the dead, or there isn't much improvement in the situation.

In my opinion, the solution for 90+% of couples who want to fulltime vandwell is either a 'big' rig (~25' or up, RV, TT, whatever), or two rigs. DW and I often sleep in separate rigs. A lot of vancouples these days run two rigs, often because they met/became a couple after each of them had rigged up. Good weather can help a lot, if early bird is cool with just going outside immediately and doing outside things until snoozer has woken.

[Hristo Botev]

This may be running too far afield from the original RV thread in your journal, but for awhile DW and I have been trying to figure out if there are any decent, modern alternatives to the old Vanagan/Eurovan Westfalias of the 80s and 90s. In my ideal world we'd have one car that was a new-ish, thoroughly dependable pop-top weekender style van that our family of 4 could use both as a campsite camper van, and also as our soccer mom/errands vehicle. We'd be dependent on campsites (or the great outdoors) for a toilet; but we also don't want to have to deal with the whole black water/grey water thing (and our townhome HOA doesn't allow vehicles with "plumbing"), or shore power, etc. We really do just want a weekender style camper that's just a van that a family of 4 can also sleep and eat comfortably in while on the road. If this were 2003 it'd be a no-brainer--I'd head over to the VW dealer and buy their Eurovan weekender. But it's not 2003.

Peace Vans in Washington claims that Mercedes has partnered with them to do a pop-top weekender for their Metris van, but that's being done by a conversion company, not Mercedes; and it looks like the list price is going to be something north of $70K (for what is otherwise a pretty shitty van).

That said, if I were a betting man I'd bet that a year from now we'll have a $70,000 Mercedes Metris conversion pop-top in our driveway; and we'll tell ourselves how much money we're "saving" by not staying in hotels and spending our vacations at state campgrounds, etc. instead of Disney or wherever.

[sky]

I like our RoadTrek, it has served us well and provided a great deal of freedom in how we travel. If I were starting over again, I would choose a white delivery van of a type known for reliability (maybe Ford Transit). It would be less than 20 feet in length and have a high top. I would make the interior comfortable, with wood floor, insulation, walls and ceiling. I would make a removable bed frame, shelving, countertop and pass-through partition between the living space and driving area. Solar, batteries, 12V chest fridge, butane camp stove, water in jugs, pail/trashbag toilet. In other words, not an RV, just a simple camper van. Fewer things to go wrong, easy to replace those that do break down. There is a big advantage to having people not know if there is someone sleeping inside.

[Ego]

...but for awhile DW and I have been trying to figure out if there are any decent, modern alternatives to the old Vanagan/Eurovan Westfalias of the 80s and 90s. In my ideal world we'd have one car that was a new-ish, thoroughly dependable pop-top weekender style van that our family of 4 could use both as a campsite camper van, and also as our soccer mom/errands vehicle.

https://ursaminorvehicles.com/campers/f ... ckage.html

[Hristo Botev]

Thanks Ego; I like it. But I need the table and seating area, etc. In truth, I had an '87 Vanagon weekender in college; not the pop-top version, but it had the table in the back with two rear-facing jump seats. And I'm looking to re-live glory days. That van, with the pop-top, is the family van to end all family vans. But sadly, DW (smartly) refuses to allow me to replace our one family car with a 20-year-old Volkswagen known for breaking down. So I've got to find an alternative; and this is the best I've found: https://www.mbvans.com/sprinter/metris- ... lsrc=aw.ds But it's not available yet from Mercedes, only through conversion companies. And whereever we get it from it'll run in the $70-80K ballpark. (And sadly no rear-facing jump seats; which may be illegal in the US at this point--those were THE BEST.)

[classical_Liberal]

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[jacob]

Ok, I'll just state this up front. I think part of the GF’s hang-up about this before has been what other people think. Remember, she’s mostly only lived in the Midwest where van-life, etc is not the norm. So I think part of her reasons for wanting bigger, nice RV vs something home-made for full timing is based on that. The idea of a hipster, west coast style rig like @Ego and @sky are suggesting wouldn’t cut it in her mind. She doesn’t really want to announce we live in a vehicle, and even more so, she doesn’t want to pull up in her parent’s driveway in a converted Uhaul, or small 1970’s campervan and announce that we live in it. If that makes any sense… Also there are aesthetic issues; she wants our home to be nice. Most self conversions or older prefabs are not as aesthetically pleasing as a newer(2000+) prefab rig. Used versions of the types of things @SWB’s, and @JP have posted appeals the most to her. The practical issues are present, but almost secondary to her. I think this is partially because the practical issues haven’t been dealt with yet, it’s only in her mind at this point.

I totally get this. For example, over the years, I've seen many dismiss ERE based on my lack of instagram-friendliness due to my complete disregard for popular aesthetics over functional priorities. See e.g. viewtopic.php?p=186678#p186678 There's a reason why all the popular minimalist bloggers paint everything white. If the same layout was in random colors, it would look poor [to non-minimalists who don't get it]. Yet turning it into an aesthetic makes it look intentional in a way that muggles can recognize as well.

For RV'ing, you got an ace though. RV pictures are not judged so much on their appearance as on the background. A fancy diesel pusher parked at the far end of Walmart or in a mobile home park with overhanging electric wires is easily beat by a picture of a dirty van posing in front of a photo-shopped sunset over Grand Canyon. See some of the pics C40 took. Ours looked more like the former and got no oohs and aahs.

The appeal should be in the lifestyle. If the goal is to get as close as possible to the conformant stick house by parking a fancy RV semi-permanently, that'll never work. Don't try to be something you're not. Some asshats will always call you homeless or worry how deep you've fallen on the social ladder if you think of your RV as your house. Your inner asshat might even call you that. I know mine did for the first few days. Conversely, some of the six-fig white-collar ppls in the park I lived in referred to their TT as their commuter home. No social shame there. "We do it for the convenience." Alternatively, "we do it for the adventure" also works (with a couple of kayaks strapped to the top). If you pick an explanation that muggles can identify with, it'll work out in terms of being judged. Hint: Don't pick "efficient", "frugal", "low impact", "savings", ... if the goal is to impress (or avoid being judged).

[sky]

Oh man, so much good stuff.

Ok, I'll just state this up front. I think part of the GF’s hang-up about this before has been what other people think. Remember, she’s mostly only lived in the Midwest where van-life, etc is not the norm. So I think part of her reasons for wanting bigger, nice RV vs something home-made for full timing is based on that. The idea of a hipster, west coast style rig like @Ego and @sky are suggesting wouldn’t cut it in her mind. She doesn’t really want to announce we live in a vehicle, and even more so, she doesn’t want to pull up in her parent’s driveway in a converted Uhaul, or small 1970’s campervan and announce that we live in it. If that makes any sense… Also there are aesthetic issues; she wants our home to be nice. Most self conversions or older prefabs are not as aesthetically pleasing as a newer(2000+) prefab rig. Used versions of the types of things @SWB’s, and @JP have posted appeals the most to her. The practical issues are present, but almost secondary to her. I think this is partially because the practical issues haven’t been dealt with yet, it’s only in her mind at this point.

And exactly for that reason, my wife and I have a RoadTrek instead of my preferred dirtbag white van! It makes us look like respectable old retirees instead of homeless cheapskate bums.

[7Wannabe5]

Rob Greenfield just posted or reposted a blog entry on the topic of exercises for reducing your sensitivity to these sort of social stigmas. For instance, he wore all the garbage he created for a month on his body. Maybe you and your GF could attempt some of the easier exercises.

Due to Covid, I stopped coloring my hair and wearing even a speck of makeup and I am already used to it. I just need to chop off the fake blonde part once the brown and silver part gets long enough to pull back. I might make some pants to match my homemade mask out of an old flannel sheet too.

[2Birds1Stone]

^ he also drank a cup of his own piss, cheers!

[Freedom_2018]

My $0.02

Some yrs ago was almost ready to pull trigger on a RV purchase but am glad I did not.

- Traveling, within the US and especially overseas made us realize how much more we enjoy that than being boondocked out on BLM land and staring at scenery (scenery gets old pretty soon and what then remains is cramped quarters, inadequate storage and bed space and the vagaries of weather which an RV is ill suited to)

- Now when traveling within US a combination of hotels and tent camping (in addition to housesitting) with a used SUV which one could sleep in if required... haven't yet. A small van with.a reasonable gas mileage would also work.

- If you have any plans to travel overseas etc...do that first...might come back with a different perspective on RVing.

- Also if planning to drop non-insignificant coin on RV...rent one for a week first to see how you like dumping tanks, navigating traffic, doing laundry, showering in tiny bathroom, the smell that sometimes seem to permeate some RVs etc....not to mention the dust, heat, cold. Depending on how much you travel a mix of non RV camping combined with stay in comfortable hotels might be financially better and also provide some variation/ polarity which is often.a component to making things interesting.

-Also seems that campsites and boondocks are getting crowded thanks to bloggers promoting this lifestyle.

[Frita]

Freedom_2018 gives good advice. I would add comparing your conclusions with your family as they may not be the same. (I prefer boondocking where we can do outdoor activities and cooking our own food. My spouse like to mix things up with a campground and occasionally eating out. Our teen prefers hotels and eating out more. We all like other forms of travel too.)

[2Birds1Stone]

Just a note on the van brands. While the Mercedes Sprinters are pretty cool, here in the USA there is a logistics issue if anything goes wrong. Many new Sprinters require a MB dealership/Service center to service, and not only is it much more expensive per hour of labor, but they tend to be far less common in "small town USA" than other shops. So if you plan on traveling to more rural areas, I would buy a van/RV that can be repaired/serviced by any mechanic. This is why the Ford and Dodge vans are so popular.

I really like the suggestion of a smaller rig coupled with AirBnB/short term rentals during work contracts. It's also easier to store a van during international travel.

[Seppia]

I'm absolutely no expert in RVs and the like, but the first thing I thought when reading through the last posts was that I'd be considering the AirBnb + smaller van (like a VW California).

With the current situation one can probably get AirBnB apartments on the REAL cheap, especially if locking in some time (that would be when you settle for a 3 month or so job).

The California would be enough for a few nights on the road, small enough that you can really go wherever you like, would not be too stupid as a daily vehicle.
When you are on a longer trip and feel a bit constrained just put in a few AirBnB nights to chill.

I don't think it could cost you more than a larger RV (I would guess maybe less?)

[jacob]

Parking is a whole other can of worms. The hassle for driving a big rig downtown goes double for parking it at the destination. This is the reason why big rigs often tow a car (why is it always a RAV4?!?). If they're not, they're either doing all their shopping at WMT, the campground store, or they're bringing everything. Class B is really the only mobile home that "parks nicely". This is also an argument for 5th wheels or TTs. Another very good argument for those is that if one side breaks (say the motor or the toilet), you don't have haul they whole thing to the mechanic. In particular, the truck can be fixed at any regular mechanic. RV mechanics are somewhat more rare.

[AxelHeyst]

One might say that a truck + trailer is a loosely coupled shelter/transportation system, while an RV is tightly coupled...

@Freedom’s right, a lot of good boondocking spots are getting blown out in the west. That said, the amount of possible boondock spots out there is enormous - it just takes more skill and experience to find those spots, and to start to know which areas are likely to be blown out. This is another reason to go with a smaller rig, and potentially high clearance or 4x4: you have greater access to spots that other people literally can’t get to.

If DW and I only had one rig / vehicle between the two of us, we’d go nuts. I have a truck, my trailer, a motorcycle, and she has her van. Also a big tent. We often sleep in separate rigs. That’s not a totally optimized situation obviously, we’re working on it, but not being attached at the hip is VITAL for long term rig life.

A YouTuber couple with a skoolie and a toad (“towed” vehicle) drive separate when they travel. Commenters have them a hard time, “where’s the love?!”. They made a video and said “we live within arms reach of each other 24/7. The alone time apart we get when we drive is precious.”

There’s so many different ways you can do it, and it’s so personal, it’s tough to design the right system without experience. And if you’ve got a SO that’s a little resistant, the danger is in guessing “wrong” first and then she’s turned off to the whole idea, when a slight tweak would have been delightful for both of you. If there’s any way to approach it as a couple with this mindset of “okay, we’re going to give this a go, and this is going to be our first guess at how we want to do it, but we recognize we might not nail it the first time, so we’ve got a plan b and plan c to iterate the system”.

Plan A = 25’ RV plus one of your current cars (tow it or drive separate). Maybe rent to try first.
Plan B = high top and minivan
PlanC = ...

An extroverted van friend had a total blast going to a van person meet up. Descend on bend I think. Something like that might help your gf get over the stigma (“look at all the cool people here...”).

[classical_Liberal]

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[Frita]

Traveling with lots of gear makes an off-the-rack RV of any class more challenging. One wants to carry necessary items without having to play Tetris to sleep or do other things. That is where being able to design your own rig is a plus to mainstream offerings. (This is something we did not realize pre-class B.)

[classical_Liberal]

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[steveo73]

When I'm working, all the little things, like cooking, washing dishes, doing laundry, trimming my beard, become annoying pains in the a**. They cause anxiety. When my time is really limited I rush through and dislike these activities. However, when I have unlimited free time these things actually become rather pleasurable, in the moment, activities. Things I not only don't mind, but enjoy. They reduce anxiety. It's amazing how frame of mind changes everything.

Hi mate - nice update. This is a good point that I notice as well. I like doing less.