m741,
I've been following your journey for a while, you are an incredibly strong individual. I very much look forward to hearing about your coming experiences in FI. It sounds like you have a good plan for what you'll do after you leave your job.
These days there isn't a day when I don't try to analyze the things that I will miss about my job. As you said, comradery and a feeling of accomplishment are things I will definitely miss.
m741's ERE Journal
I'm in a bit of a strange situation right now. As of last fall, I knew that the work I've been doing for the past 18 months felt pointless and left me unhappy. I really haven't enjoyed it and I was thinking about moving on to a different company. Then I received a good bonus, and so I was planning on delaying a few more months for a gradual interview process - and then I had this family crisis.
After I returned I was planning on working until the summer and then leaving work. I called off interviews with the companies I had been talking with.
Three weeks ago, there was an announcement about yet another major reoganization within my company (there were two last year and one the year before). I didn't really have any details, it was more "here's how the company is changing in 2 months." This reorg will destroy the team I'm on and move people into a variety of other teams.
Then two weeks ago I received a call from first one major tech company, and then another. Both companies are prestigious - the very best in their respective fields. One I'm a big fan of; given that they called directly and didn't even go through I headhunter, I felt I had to take the interview. The second I'm somewhat less enthused about but they're in a great location and I believe would help relocate. Obviously, these offers are far from guaranteed - I still have to interview.
Meanwhile, the managers at my company who are assigning people to teams for the reorganization seem very open to letting me choose my team (from 3 which are all interesting). The team which is most appealing to me would allow me to learn some very interesting (and marketable) skills.
As my lease is up in July, if I stayed at my current company I could also splurge and move to a pricier location that I feel would remove some of the environmental stress that's been wearing on me (hearing people through walls, crappy cheap apartment, mediocre location).
On top of all that I still feel like I should travel - that there are unresolved issues in my personal life which I haven't had the space or time to address. None of the other options gives me the extensive travel time I really desire, which is 4-5 months (2 months max are possible if I switch jobs; at my current job my managers are open to giving me some long weekends 'off the books,' which is generous but not the same as an extended trip).
The downside to travel is that I lose an opportunity to learn skills which are useful not just for work, but also for future personal projects. All three options (the two companies or staying at my current company) would teach me a lot. I've always suffered from 'imposter syndrome,' and I think the skills I'd (hopefully) learn would alleviate that somewhat. The fact that one to three more years would allow me to further pad my SWR isn't bad, either. Based on my current situation if I worked for two more years I'd essentially be guaranteeing myself that I'd never need to work again. I'm already in a very strong financial position but if I quit today, I would always feel a little nervous.
Essentially (if I interview well...) I'm presented with 4 appealing options. But maybe the best two options are guaranteed (staying at my company but moving to my favorite of 3 teams, or traveling). The timing is a mess, I'm essentially forced to change teams right before I start interviewing, and two months before I'd planned to travel, meaning I'd be leaving right after I switch teams, which is shitty. I feel like maybe I should just honestly present the fact that I'm stressed and don't feel productive to the managers at my current company and see if they can make the decision easier (either by offering a bit more leave or a raise, or by rejecting those - either way I get a push). Another benefit is that at least I'm honest and don't unexpectedly leave right after moving to a different team. I owe nothing to the company but like the people I work with and don't want to mislead.
Just wondering if anyone has any experience with situations such as this.
After I returned I was planning on working until the summer and then leaving work. I called off interviews with the companies I had been talking with.
Three weeks ago, there was an announcement about yet another major reoganization within my company (there were two last year and one the year before). I didn't really have any details, it was more "here's how the company is changing in 2 months." This reorg will destroy the team I'm on and move people into a variety of other teams.
Then two weeks ago I received a call from first one major tech company, and then another. Both companies are prestigious - the very best in their respective fields. One I'm a big fan of; given that they called directly and didn't even go through I headhunter, I felt I had to take the interview. The second I'm somewhat less enthused about but they're in a great location and I believe would help relocate. Obviously, these offers are far from guaranteed - I still have to interview.
Meanwhile, the managers at my company who are assigning people to teams for the reorganization seem very open to letting me choose my team (from 3 which are all interesting). The team which is most appealing to me would allow me to learn some very interesting (and marketable) skills.
As my lease is up in July, if I stayed at my current company I could also splurge and move to a pricier location that I feel would remove some of the environmental stress that's been wearing on me (hearing people through walls, crappy cheap apartment, mediocre location).
On top of all that I still feel like I should travel - that there are unresolved issues in my personal life which I haven't had the space or time to address. None of the other options gives me the extensive travel time I really desire, which is 4-5 months (2 months max are possible if I switch jobs; at my current job my managers are open to giving me some long weekends 'off the books,' which is generous but not the same as an extended trip).
The downside to travel is that I lose an opportunity to learn skills which are useful not just for work, but also for future personal projects. All three options (the two companies or staying at my current company) would teach me a lot. I've always suffered from 'imposter syndrome,' and I think the skills I'd (hopefully) learn would alleviate that somewhat. The fact that one to three more years would allow me to further pad my SWR isn't bad, either. Based on my current situation if I worked for two more years I'd essentially be guaranteeing myself that I'd never need to work again. I'm already in a very strong financial position but if I quit today, I would always feel a little nervous.
Essentially (if I interview well...) I'm presented with 4 appealing options. But maybe the best two options are guaranteed (staying at my company but moving to my favorite of 3 teams, or traveling). The timing is a mess, I'm essentially forced to change teams right before I start interviewing, and two months before I'd planned to travel, meaning I'd be leaving right after I switch teams, which is shitty. I feel like maybe I should just honestly present the fact that I'm stressed and don't feel productive to the managers at my current company and see if they can make the decision easier (either by offering a bit more leave or a raise, or by rejecting those - either way I get a push). Another benefit is that at least I'm honest and don't unexpectedly leave right after moving to a different team. I owe nothing to the company but like the people I work with and don't want to mislead.
Just wondering if anyone has any experience with situations such as this.
Yeah, I can totally see how this throws a wrench in your plans. From reading your journal, your planned adventure seems important, and I think you should seriously consider keeping your travel plans intact while considering these new possibilities.
None of the other options gives me the extensive travel time I really desire, which is 4-5 months (2 months max are possible if I switch jobs
I'm curious as to why you think this is, particularly if you switch employers. Comparing them to say, Google, my understanding is that the hiring process is long, they hire on a company-wide basis (meaning they're not just "plugging holes"), and they're on-boarding people year round (not just the spring when the new grads come in). Assuming you get an offer, I don't think it would be unreasonable to negotiate a start date farther into the future. With a hard interview process will have a high reject rate, so they'll want you badly if you pass. The company will need to weigh the two options of 1) having a longer-than-average wait time for you to start or 2) interviewing 50-100 other people. And if the company has a long interview process, 2 may end up being a hell of a long time, maybe even 4+ months. If they're on-boarding year round, then it doesn't matter when you show up. And if the hiring criteria is "smart people" (like FB, where you pick a team after you start), then you don't need to worry about some other candidate coming along and taking the one available spot.
But that's based on the previous assumptions. If the company is a startup, there's definitely a chance of missing the boat. Same if the company isn't as insulated from economic tides. Or if it's a large bureaucratic company (like mine) that requires job offers to be accepted in the same year that they are made.
None of the other options gives me the extensive travel time I really desire, which is 4-5 months (2 months max are possible if I switch jobs
I'm curious as to why you think this is, particularly if you switch employers. Comparing them to say, Google, my understanding is that the hiring process is long, they hire on a company-wide basis (meaning they're not just "plugging holes"), and they're on-boarding people year round (not just the spring when the new grads come in). Assuming you get an offer, I don't think it would be unreasonable to negotiate a start date farther into the future. With a hard interview process will have a high reject rate, so they'll want you badly if you pass. The company will need to weigh the two options of 1) having a longer-than-average wait time for you to start or 2) interviewing 50-100 other people. And if the company has a long interview process, 2 may end up being a hell of a long time, maybe even 4+ months. If they're on-boarding year round, then it doesn't matter when you show up. And if the hiring criteria is "smart people" (like FB, where you pick a team after you start), then you don't need to worry about some other candidate coming along and taking the one available spot.
But that's based on the previous assumptions. If the company is a startup, there's definitely a chance of missing the boat. Same if the company isn't as insulated from economic tides. Or if it's a large bureaucratic company (like mine) that requires job offers to be accepted in the same year that they are made.
I probably shouldnt comment because my work world is in many many ways miles apart from yours- however! one thing I have learnt in life is that if you are well qualified with good experience in your field there is always work available. If you get caught in the web of it being available only at this point in time and never again employers will drain you dry until you have no more to give. You sound really good at what you do - look at what you acheived with a little extra time and less pressure (the new programs and robotics). Give yourself time to reenergise and do something else and your creative spirit will fly.
if they really want to have you, they also want to have you in few months. So having a 2/4 months period off imho should not really be an issue. PS: 2 months is not a lot of time to disconnect yourself from your work..
And if you are worried about security: because you already are very close. If you can make enough money to not touch your savings, you are going to be secure in few years due to earnings on your investments (which you also should not touch).
So.. why do you need to make a lot of money... why not take the time to look for something that is much closer to what you like... even if it pays less since the income is primarily meant for living expenses.
And if you are worried about security: because you already are very close. If you can make enough money to not touch your savings, you are going to be secure in few years due to earnings on your investments (which you also should not touch).
So.. why do you need to make a lot of money... why not take the time to look for something that is much closer to what you like... even if it pays less since the income is primarily meant for living expenses.
I would also try to ignore the money part of it, m741. Let's be honest with yourself: you already have enough money. And because you would want to continue to work anyway (after a holiday), your assets are only "doomed" to grow in the next couple of years, anyway.
All options will give you an income (even the 4-month-holiday and then not-coming-back-to-a-job will give you an income, because you would still find a new job). So I would try to find out what FEELS best...
That's also a very strong position when you're applying for a job: "People, I don't need this job. Convince me that I want it (for example by allowing me to start working 4 months from now)".
All options will give you an income (even the 4-month-holiday and then not-coming-back-to-a-job will give you an income, because you would still find a new job). So I would try to find out what FEELS best...
That's also a very strong position when you're applying for a job: "People, I don't need this job. Convince me that I want it (for example by allowing me to start working 4 months from now)".
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jennypenny
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I wouldn't worry about joining a new team before you quit, or telling your current employer your plans. You don't really owe them that. You didn't choose to switch teams, they are forcing you to. And if this is the third reorg in as many years, I'll bet a lot of people are exploring their options (and not feeling guilty about it).
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My_Brain_Gets_Itchy
- Posts: 267
- Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:29 pm
@m741:
Thanks for sharing your story.
You have a lot of great options. A wealth of great choices and opportunities. It's a credit to you, as good workers are an asset and are hard to find. You are in clear demand, and in the drivers seat. Taking control of that can lead to certain anxieties for sure.
I didn't really want to comment on whether you should travel 'now' or not, because that is more of a personal decision than anything. I find that harder to rationalize and give perspectives to.
What I can relate to in your story (from various moments of transition in my life via death, job changes and moving) is that sometimes in life a lateral move can do wonders, especially given your family circumstances.
Just a change of scenery and habit gives you a clearer more conscious existence, having new co-workers, a new commute, new culture, new cubicle, etc. Kind of like going to a new school. In certain ways this 'change' is like starting all over and leaves you 'naked', which is a very similar feeling to travel.
Staying at the same company IMHO, even on a new team, challenges you the least in terms of your status quo. It looks like change but it's really not, as you have a sense of incumbency and seniority that humbles you less. Also, you still have a strong idea of company policy and procedure so despite the fact you have a new position and responsibilities, its still less of of a challenge, at least from the environment side. It's a safe option, but when I read your journal, everything in your writings whether consciously or not screams to me that you need/want challenge and change in order to expose your true potentials and interests.
Anyhow, I think you will be fine any way you go, especially since you are giving a lot of great thought and reflection into it.
Just my 2 cents m741,
Best of luck.
Thanks for sharing your story.
You have a lot of great options. A wealth of great choices and opportunities. It's a credit to you, as good workers are an asset and are hard to find. You are in clear demand, and in the drivers seat. Taking control of that can lead to certain anxieties for sure.
I didn't really want to comment on whether you should travel 'now' or not, because that is more of a personal decision than anything. I find that harder to rationalize and give perspectives to.
What I can relate to in your story (from various moments of transition in my life via death, job changes and moving) is that sometimes in life a lateral move can do wonders, especially given your family circumstances.
Just a change of scenery and habit gives you a clearer more conscious existence, having new co-workers, a new commute, new culture, new cubicle, etc. Kind of like going to a new school. In certain ways this 'change' is like starting all over and leaves you 'naked', which is a very similar feeling to travel.
Staying at the same company IMHO, even on a new team, challenges you the least in terms of your status quo. It looks like change but it's really not, as you have a sense of incumbency and seniority that humbles you less. Also, you still have a strong idea of company policy and procedure so despite the fact you have a new position and responsibilities, its still less of of a challenge, at least from the environment side. It's a safe option, but when I read your journal, everything in your writings whether consciously or not screams to me that you need/want challenge and change in order to expose your true potentials and interests.
Anyhow, I think you will be fine any way you go, especially since you are giving a lot of great thought and reflection into it.
Just my 2 cents m741,
Best of luck.
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George the original one
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Your current company is screwing you over and you know it. Three reorgs in three years tells you that nobody in charge is thinking long term and they're treating you like a pawn. Move on, regardless of whether you travel or switch to another company.
As others have said, you can negotiate the 3-4 months of travel before starting with any new company. Don't tell the interviewer that you're trying to resolve personal issues... they'll think you're a flake. Do tell them that you're planning a long vacation.
As others have said, you can negotiate the 3-4 months of travel before starting with any new company. Don't tell the interviewer that you're trying to resolve personal issues... they'll think you're a flake. Do tell them that you're planning a long vacation.
@Chris - They're not startups. You're right, I may be able to finagle some sort of deal where there's a significant delay before I start work.
@jpenny - That's a different perspective than I had been looking at it from. I'd been thinking "I get to choose what team I'm on," but you're right, I didn't ask for re-organization and I shouldn't force my schedule to conform to the company's (not should I feel guilty, as I didn't initiate the change).
@GeorgeTOO - I don't think they're screwing me over. The reorg has been pretty general and not focusing on me. The organization simply moves very fast. And, it's clear they're looking to lay people off, but I doubt that's me (and even if it were, I wouldn't blame them, the company's focus is to keep overhead low). That said, there's definitely horse trading and I can feel like a pawn at times.
At this point I guess I'll keep in a holding pattern - continue interviewing, see how that turns out, and move within the company in the meantime. I guess the good thing is, I'll have at least a month to see if I really enjoy the new team.
Although I might not grow as much by changing teams as I would traveling or trying a new company, it may at least present a stable environment to learn a new technology.
@jpenny - That's a different perspective than I had been looking at it from. I'd been thinking "I get to choose what team I'm on," but you're right, I didn't ask for re-organization and I shouldn't force my schedule to conform to the company's (not should I feel guilty, as I didn't initiate the change).
@GeorgeTOO - I don't think they're screwing me over. The reorg has been pretty general and not focusing on me. The organization simply moves very fast. And, it's clear they're looking to lay people off, but I doubt that's me (and even if it were, I wouldn't blame them, the company's focus is to keep overhead low). That said, there's definitely horse trading and I can feel like a pawn at times.
At this point I guess I'll keep in a holding pattern - continue interviewing, see how that turns out, and move within the company in the meantime. I guess the good thing is, I'll have at least a month to see if I really enjoy the new team.
Although I might not grow as much by changing teams as I would traveling or trying a new company, it may at least present a stable environment to learn a new technology.
April 2013
This is gonna be a pretty long entry, so feel free to grab snacks or hit the restrooms.
First off, I've stopped recording expenses for now. They were pretty consistent, and I didn't feel like I was learning anything from them at this point. Given my total savings, and the fact that my lifestyle now is radically different from what I'd do when I stopped working, obsessing over money and saving $100 or $200 per month just doesn't have much meaning to me.
As for my previous dilemma: I aced a 45-minute phone interview with the company I really like (self-rating: 8/10). I did poorly during a 4-hour in-person interview with the company I cared less about (3.5/10). I have an in-person interview with my preferred company in just over a week.
It's been 5 years since I interviewed, and I was never a good interviewee, so this was a real wake-up call. There's a lot of ways I can spin this interview - I flew cross country to do it, with little sleep, it's in a city with a lot of emotional baggage, etc. But the bottom line is that I did a poor job of it.
Now, I understand interviewing is a skill - one with a tangential bearing on actual programming. Still, a failed interview is something I can't help but take as a personal indictment of my abilities. I'm pretty embarrassed, and I feel compelled to start training for interviews (which has plenty of tangible benefits: more effective communication, more diverse programming knowledge, brain training, etc).
I guess I might as well come clean, and say that I have (A) an extreme case of imposter syndrome, and (B) what I guess would be termed a guilt complex, which together have roped and staked and warped my thinking, like a bonsai tree.
Imposter syndrome in particular is pretty nasty, and it's historically caused me to shy away from really dedicating myself to anything, under the theory that not failing and remaining ignorant is preferable to failing but improving... I need to get good at losing.
I'm reminded of David Foster Wallace, "Worship your power, you will end up feeling weak and afraid, and you will need ever more power over others to numb you to your own fear. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart, you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of of being found out." Years ago, I read and appreciated the words, and then went back to worshiping my intellect.
It's becoming increasingly clear to me that the mask I wear most of the time - a mask which I believe appears very tranquil, reasonable and moderate, conceals a great deal of stress. Like a millimeter-thick sheet of ice above a gaping whirlpool.
As for what I want in the next few months, my preferences are like a weather vane on greased ball bearings, spinning madly in the wind. It's impossible for me to make any plans in such a situation, when one day I desperately want to quit and travel, and the next day I dream only of immersing myself in a year of intense programming at work. I've clung to the hope that I could switch jobs - and take time to travel in the interim - but that may not to be an option. Currently, for what it's worth, I think it's better for me to push myself at work for a year, than to travel.
This is gonna be a pretty long entry, so feel free to grab snacks or hit the restrooms.
First off, I've stopped recording expenses for now. They were pretty consistent, and I didn't feel like I was learning anything from them at this point. Given my total savings, and the fact that my lifestyle now is radically different from what I'd do when I stopped working, obsessing over money and saving $100 or $200 per month just doesn't have much meaning to me.
As for my previous dilemma: I aced a 45-minute phone interview with the company I really like (self-rating: 8/10). I did poorly during a 4-hour in-person interview with the company I cared less about (3.5/10). I have an in-person interview with my preferred company in just over a week.
It's been 5 years since I interviewed, and I was never a good interviewee, so this was a real wake-up call. There's a lot of ways I can spin this interview - I flew cross country to do it, with little sleep, it's in a city with a lot of emotional baggage, etc. But the bottom line is that I did a poor job of it.
Now, I understand interviewing is a skill - one with a tangential bearing on actual programming. Still, a failed interview is something I can't help but take as a personal indictment of my abilities. I'm pretty embarrassed, and I feel compelled to start training for interviews (which has plenty of tangible benefits: more effective communication, more diverse programming knowledge, brain training, etc).
I guess I might as well come clean, and say that I have (A) an extreme case of imposter syndrome, and (B) what I guess would be termed a guilt complex, which together have roped and staked and warped my thinking, like a bonsai tree.
Imposter syndrome in particular is pretty nasty, and it's historically caused me to shy away from really dedicating myself to anything, under the theory that not failing and remaining ignorant is preferable to failing but improving... I need to get good at losing.
I'm reminded of David Foster Wallace, "Worship your power, you will end up feeling weak and afraid, and you will need ever more power over others to numb you to your own fear. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart, you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of of being found out." Years ago, I read and appreciated the words, and then went back to worshiping my intellect.
It's becoming increasingly clear to me that the mask I wear most of the time - a mask which I believe appears very tranquil, reasonable and moderate, conceals a great deal of stress. Like a millimeter-thick sheet of ice above a gaping whirlpool.
As for what I want in the next few months, my preferences are like a weather vane on greased ball bearings, spinning madly in the wind. It's impossible for me to make any plans in such a situation, when one day I desperately want to quit and travel, and the next day I dream only of immersing myself in a year of intense programming at work. I've clung to the hope that I could switch jobs - and take time to travel in the interim - but that may not to be an option. Currently, for what it's worth, I think it's better for me to push myself at work for a year, than to travel.
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secretwealth
- Posts: 1948
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I had Imposter Syndrome hardcore in my 20s. As I entered my 30s, i realized more and more how fucking stupid my superiors were, and how most of organizations revolve around bullshit. My cynicism has made me feel more confident.
I wouldn't sweat the interview performance much. I imagine it was your subconscious sabotaging you from a job you don't really want.
I wouldn't sweat the interview performance much. I imagine it was your subconscious sabotaging you from a job you don't really want.
My boyfriend went from imposter syndrome to extreme cynicism. It's a bit of a problem, because currently he looks at every job offer (he's had several) and says: "Nah, it's probably boring / I'll have to work with idiots / my boss will be a fool / they'll screw it up after I leave". And he may be right, but then again he's bored sitting at home and he doesn't have any other ideas about what to do, either. (Sorry. Blowing off some steam here 
).
M741, you'll get through this period. And whatever choice you make, I think they will all have a chance of leading to fun and happiness.
It's still a whirlpool of emotions and thoughts, I guess. Hang in there.
). M741, you'll get through this period. And whatever choice you make, I think they will all have a chance of leading to fun and happiness.
It's still a whirlpool of emotions and thoughts, I guess. Hang in there.
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BeyondtheWrap
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jacob
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Interviews ... from my FU-money perspective, I'm now interviewing them. They're not interviewing me. At least that's what it feels like. Interviewing potential future bosses (rather than the other way around) probably is a skill. I've read a bunch of management books and I recommend it---don't just read them but think about it (practice your understanding by watching The Office which has nearly everything but, unfortunately, tech workers). If you can figure out what the management style is and what the strategic objectives of the manager _really_ are and what kind of tactics they prefer to use to reach those, you have a much better chance of knowing whether you'll fit in.
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secretwealth
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@BeyondTheWrap: You're right. Getting good at interviewing is probably not what I want to invest time in. I guess what I want to be good at is quickly writing and explaining algorithms, which has a lot of benefits, one of which is interviewing.
Although from a money perspective, I don't need to work, I'd like to put in a year or two at a prestigious/scaled tech company to build a better skillset for personal use, and so if I want to work part-time in the future at some small company, I have a way to do so.
I've found some websites with coding competitions, which I think I'd enjoy.
Although from a money perspective, I don't need to work, I'd like to put in a year or two at a prestigious/scaled tech company to build a better skillset for personal use, and so if I want to work part-time in the future at some small company, I have a way to do so.
I've found some websites with coding competitions, which I think I'd enjoy.
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jacob
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@secretwealth - Yes, that's definitely something you'd want to know. Is the company/group/manager a lifer/careerist? Are they trying to get bought up/merged/promoted? Is this a stepping stone or the end-goal? Does anyone have skin in the game? What's the most important success criteria? What performance metric do they use: face time/work done/money made/politics/...?
If you're entering a joint (ad)venture with someone you'd want to know where they're going even if you're nominally the employee and they're nominally the employer. This stuff is crucial to overall work happiness which with FU money becomes the only reason to work.
PS: I don't ask them what kind of tree they would be if they were a tree ;-P
If you're entering a joint (ad)venture with someone you'd want to know where they're going even if you're nominally the employee and they're nominally the employer. This stuff is crucial to overall work happiness which with FU money becomes the only reason to work.
PS: I don't ask them what kind of tree they would be if they were a tree ;-P
I wouldn't lose too much sleep over one bad interview. I interviewed three different times with my current company before I was hired. The first interview was alright, the second one was the worst one I've ever done in my life, and the third one went really smooth.
In the past couple of years I interviewed for positions within the company and I've found that if there's a personality conflict between myself and one of the interviewers, it's bound to go bad. Sometimes, if there's a deep seated conflict within yourself about the company you're interviewing with, then that can also lead to a bad experience. I think SW is right, maybe the 3.5/10 interview didn't go as well as you'd hoped because you didn't think very highly of that company to begin with.
You win some you lose some.
In the past couple of years I interviewed for positions within the company and I've found that if there's a personality conflict between myself and one of the interviewers, it's bound to go bad. Sometimes, if there's a deep seated conflict within yourself about the company you're interviewing with, then that can also lead to a bad experience. I think SW is right, maybe the 3.5/10 interview didn't go as well as you'd hoped because you didn't think very highly of that company to begin with.
You win some you lose some.