I have found that the companies that pay the most do not like to see gaps in your resume. So if you do this early retirement thing but eventually down the line it doesn't work out for you, what is your plan if you find that you have become virtually unemployable because of the gap in your employment? Also, if you once did something that required a lot of skill, your skills will be out-of-date. Combined with so big a gap, you would likely not get a high-paying gig ever again. Are you okay with that?
I ask not to put you all on the defensive but because I find myself in a similar position.
What if your plan makes you unemployable?
I think the best solution is probably to never stop learning and improving a number of marketable skills.
I hope to be able to get consultantcy gigs from time to time if I need it or if I want to gain some more experience in certain fields. My resume so far looks excellent and I'm addicted to learning, so I figure I'll be always worth *something* to someone. My needs should be limited, so it wouldn't be a catastrophe if they don't pay me as much as someone with a perfect resume.
Another solution may be to own your own little company. It doesn't have to be active all the time, but you owning it fills the hole in your resume. It could also allow you to deduct certain expenses from your taxable income.
Depending of your country, this may be possible and worthwhile or not.
(these are just vague plans, maybe I'm naive)
I hope to be able to get consultantcy gigs from time to time if I need it or if I want to gain some more experience in certain fields. My resume so far looks excellent and I'm addicted to learning, so I figure I'll be always worth *something* to someone. My needs should be limited, so it wouldn't be a catastrophe if they don't pay me as much as someone with a perfect resume.
Another solution may be to own your own little company. It doesn't have to be active all the time, but you owning it fills the hole in your resume. It could also allow you to deduct certain expenses from your taxable income.
Depending of your country, this may be possible and worthwhile or not.
(these are just vague plans, maybe I'm naive)
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Robert Muir
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You may not make the big bucks you would if you were in a real career, but you certainly wouldn't be unemployable. You're likely to pick up more than a hobby or two that could provide an income if you were to choose. Also, like Marius suggested, depending on your skills, you can maintain a business identity as a "consultant". A business license is only about $20 per year and you can take on as much or as little general work as you want.
A "consultant" can do anything. Mow lawns, wash cars, fix computers, walk dogs, whatever. Don't worry about W-2 forms, the 1099 is where it's at baby!
A "consultant" can do anything. Mow lawns, wash cars, fix computers, walk dogs, whatever. Don't worry about W-2 forms, the 1099 is where it's at baby!
I too plan to have my own business which will essentially be inactive. Which solves the problem in two ways: #1. It gives me something to put on my resume should I, god forbid, ever want a job again and #2. if something does happen where I foresee needing a job I should have plenty of time to ramp up my business before I am actually out of money.
Even if I did end up needing a job it would be a very temporary thing, a few years at most, so if it's just some low-paid stint somewhere, well, big deal.
Even if I did end up needing a job it would be a very temporary thing, a few years at most, so if it's just some low-paid stint somewhere, well, big deal.
Piper,
There's no cut-and-dried solution to your question!
Keeping it topical with today morning's post... people had all but written off COBOL, and along came Y2K and they were all back to "flavour of the year"
. On a similar trajectory I suspect there would be Delphi, and similar applications that might need maintenance at an appropriate time. One never knows which profession becomes the "blue-eyed-child" of the future. Many of my friends in Mechanical Engg., were laughed out of the career counsellor's office because IT's the "cool jive, maan"... Then IT stagnated, but the traditional civil and mechanical ones have boomed with infrastructure, transit rail projects and similar ones around, not to mention quick trips to the Gulf to maintain those pesky oil-refineries.
On another note, namely "appropriate jobs" is also like a lottery IMO! For, example, one of my ex-boss was a complete nincompoop and our team would always feel that I would be a better replacement for him. This collective feeling would spill over in his presence and he gave me a lot of hell as a consequence, even though I was content to be "loser" and tide my time away for ERE. His only qualification for the top-job was that we was warming the chair in the company, while I was out getting my PhD! So, in one sense he was "best of crop" at that time and so became my boss by default when I rejoined the workforce. There's no way one can foresee this kind of thing either....
The real way in which I see this panning out is like this:
Even though I was just .25 x ER before walking out, I had a great sense of confidence and a "I don't really need this job as a sole means to fund me" attitude which was beginning to get noticed (and became even more threatening for my ex-boss)! Once you are ERE, any job you'd take would just be topping your ERE fund or some spare change for a rainy day, so to speak. In my own case, some of the ERE habits are clearly a one-way street, and your expenses wouldn't really shoot up later!
Lastly, employers take "guts" over "talent" any day (forgive my sexist sentence, but you get the sense, I hope), because frankly speaking 80-90% of the jobs out there are so 'cookie-cutter', I could train our kitten to do a decent job in it if it came to that!
People, no offence to anyone meant there!
EDIT: Altered balls to guts.
There's no cut-and-dried solution to your question!
Keeping it topical with today morning's post... people had all but written off COBOL, and along came Y2K and they were all back to "flavour of the year"
. On a similar trajectory I suspect there would be Delphi, and similar applications that might need maintenance at an appropriate time. One never knows which profession becomes the "blue-eyed-child" of the future. Many of my friends in Mechanical Engg., were laughed out of the career counsellor's office because IT's the "cool jive, maan"... Then IT stagnated, but the traditional civil and mechanical ones have boomed with infrastructure, transit rail projects and similar ones around, not to mention quick trips to the Gulf to maintain those pesky oil-refineries. On another note, namely "appropriate jobs" is also like a lottery IMO! For, example, one of my ex-boss was a complete nincompoop and our team would always feel that I would be a better replacement for him. This collective feeling would spill over in his presence and he gave me a lot of hell as a consequence, even though I was content to be "loser" and tide my time away for ERE. His only qualification for the top-job was that we was warming the chair in the company, while I was out getting my PhD! So, in one sense he was "best of crop" at that time and so became my boss by default when I rejoined the workforce. There's no way one can foresee this kind of thing either....
The real way in which I see this panning out is like this:
Even though I was just .25 x ER before walking out, I had a great sense of confidence and a "I don't really need this job as a sole means to fund me" attitude which was beginning to get noticed (and became even more threatening for my ex-boss)! Once you are ERE, any job you'd take would just be topping your ERE fund or some spare change for a rainy day, so to speak. In my own case, some of the ERE habits are clearly a one-way street, and your expenses wouldn't really shoot up later!
Lastly, employers take "guts" over "talent" any day (forgive my sexist sentence, but you get the sense, I hope), because frankly speaking 80-90% of the jobs out there are so 'cookie-cutter', I could train our kitten to do a decent job in it if it came to that!
People, no offence to anyone meant there!
EDIT: Altered balls to guts.
I have a two year gap from age 24 to 26. I found it was not a disadvantage when I applied for my current job at age 26.
In fact, I think the interesting experiences (some professional, some unrelated) that I had during that gap were probably more helpful than another employee bullet point would have been on my resume.
Then again, I'm in a field with massive demand and little supply, so perhaps my experience wouldn't apply universally.
PS: I also found that my professional skills stayed more up to date while unemployed, because I was free to explore anything that seemed interesting rather than working on the more profit-focused/maintenance projects that an employer would have picked for me.
In fact, I think the interesting experiences (some professional, some unrelated) that I had during that gap were probably more helpful than another employee bullet point would have been on my resume.
Then again, I'm in a field with massive demand and little supply, so perhaps my experience wouldn't apply universally.
PS: I also found that my professional skills stayed more up to date while unemployed, because I was free to explore anything that seemed interesting rather than working on the more profit-focused/maintenance projects that an employer would have picked for me.
"some of the ERE habits are clearly a one-way street"
That's a good way to put it. One-way streets. Doors that close and stay closed.
@Marius, If you decide to leave the work world but then spend a lot of your time trying to keep yourself employable and your resume looking hot, then what good is early retirement? Seems more like you are just trading a good career trajectory for some time off right now. Kind of a worst of both worlds deal. Doors that neither close far enough to free you or stay open enough to give you limitless choice.
I think I have been penalized for breaking my ties to careerism, but it is hard to tell because of the economy. After a lifetime of feeling that doors were always open, it can be hard to shut one and adjust to it never opening again.
Anyway, there are a lot of interesting ideas. The consultant idea is interesting. I don't like the idea of having to file quarterly taxes and estimating my income all the time, though.
That's a good way to put it. One-way streets. Doors that close and stay closed.
@Marius, If you decide to leave the work world but then spend a lot of your time trying to keep yourself employable and your resume looking hot, then what good is early retirement? Seems more like you are just trading a good career trajectory for some time off right now. Kind of a worst of both worlds deal. Doors that neither close far enough to free you or stay open enough to give you limitless choice.
I think I have been penalized for breaking my ties to careerism, but it is hard to tell because of the economy. After a lifetime of feeling that doors were always open, it can be hard to shut one and adjust to it never opening again.
Anyway, there are a lot of interesting ideas. The consultant idea is interesting. I don't like the idea of having to file quarterly taxes and estimating my income all the time, though.
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jacob
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I can only see the "up or out" careers closing their doors [because you're now "out"], but those doors would automatically close themselves anyway [if you're not going "up"].
I think it also depends on how high conformity is valued within a given field: Does your employer care about what kind of shirt you wear, what kind of car you drive, or *egads* what kind of paper your cover letter is printed on?
Also, as mentioned in another thread an employer in sales might prefer a certain level of desperation in his employees, e.g. needing to make a quota in order to pay the bills as opposed to "selling for the fun of it" whereas conversely an employer in the research department might prefer his employees not worrying about making ends meet.
Personally, I'm totally okay with not getting a high paying job. After all, with FI I don't need the money(*); so regardless of the amount it wouldn't make a difference(**). I would also say that I really am retired from my previous career in that I don't ever see myself going back to it. If ER doesn't pan out and I go back and get a job, it's not going to be the same as my previous career. Hence I'm not concerned about skill loss. My talent is not so much in what I know but in how quickly I can learn and how I think.
(*) The marginal utility of additional money is very small now.
(**) There is a certain cool-factor working for $1/year. I would take such a job if it was sufficiently interesting to me.
I think it also depends on how high conformity is valued within a given field: Does your employer care about what kind of shirt you wear, what kind of car you drive, or *egads* what kind of paper your cover letter is printed on?
Also, as mentioned in another thread an employer in sales might prefer a certain level of desperation in his employees, e.g. needing to make a quota in order to pay the bills as opposed to "selling for the fun of it" whereas conversely an employer in the research department might prefer his employees not worrying about making ends meet.
Personally, I'm totally okay with not getting a high paying job. After all, with FI I don't need the money(*); so regardless of the amount it wouldn't make a difference(**). I would also say that I really am retired from my previous career in that I don't ever see myself going back to it. If ER doesn't pan out and I go back and get a job, it's not going to be the same as my previous career. Hence I'm not concerned about skill loss. My talent is not so much in what I know but in how quickly I can learn and how I think.
(*) The marginal utility of additional money is very small now.
(**) There is a certain cool-factor working for $1/year. I would take such a job if it was sufficiently interesting to me.
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Robert Muir
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"Filing" quarterly tax payments couldn't be much easier. There's a small form that you use as kind of a deposit slip and your check. That's it.
Estimating is nearly as easy. If you're consulting full time, then TurboTax calculates your estimated quarterly taxes for you. If you're consulting occasionally, then you're most likely in the 15% tax bracket, so you just send in 10-15% of what you make each quarter. I use Quicken to keep track of my income and expenses.
Estimating is nearly as easy. If you're consulting full time, then TurboTax calculates your estimated quarterly taxes for you. If you're consulting occasionally, then you're most likely in the 15% tax bracket, so you just send in 10-15% of what you make each quarter. I use Quicken to keep track of my income and expenses.
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DividendGuy
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My take on this question is that if you are truly FI when you decide to exit the work force then what does it matter if you are employable or not? If your expenses are more than covered by your investments/income sources then employment should be a secondary concern. As others have said the main types of employers that would probably frown on large resume gaps are rat-race career ladder types. If you're doing part time work here and there to fund hobbies or simply to fill your available free time then I suppose you are probably not looking to get a job at a Fortune 500 company. Just my opinion.
In 4HWW Tim Ferriss opined that decisions should include the contingency of determining the counter-factual. WRT quitting 9-5 and starting a muse, his attitude was that the worse case scenario if the muse failed was "going back to work." When I read this, I had the same reservations as the OP. In some cases, you cannot go back to square one.
Nevertheless, I find a certain freedom in knowing that "going back" is not always an option. Despite the fact that I believe myself to be a good lawyer, no "big law" firm would hire me because I am too experienced to be broken in like an associate fresh out of law school and I don't have a book of business to justify cutting me in on the partnership profits. But I wouldn't work the insane hours on the dull document reviews and inane depositions for any amount of pay.
I do have the satisfaction of knowing that, if ERE failed because of poor investment performance, I could always hang out my shingle and make a few bucks doing ham-and-egg lawyering for the folks who are priced out of access to "big law" attorneys. It is not a prospect I relish because it requires a lot of self-marketing to bring in business and cover overhead. As one of my friends put it, running a small practice is like interviewing for a job on an almost daily basis. But hunger and the need for shelter would probably be a sufficient motivator.
I am beginning to explore through thought experiments whether there will still be a need for attorneys in the aftermath of a Kunstler-like collapse. My tentative conclusion is that there will still be a role for some attorneys, but no where near the need for the tens of thousands currently practicing. And the differentiator will probably be people skills rather than technical knowledge.
Nevertheless, I find a certain freedom in knowing that "going back" is not always an option. Despite the fact that I believe myself to be a good lawyer, no "big law" firm would hire me because I am too experienced to be broken in like an associate fresh out of law school and I don't have a book of business to justify cutting me in on the partnership profits. But I wouldn't work the insane hours on the dull document reviews and inane depositions for any amount of pay.
I do have the satisfaction of knowing that, if ERE failed because of poor investment performance, I could always hang out my shingle and make a few bucks doing ham-and-egg lawyering for the folks who are priced out of access to "big law" attorneys. It is not a prospect I relish because it requires a lot of self-marketing to bring in business and cover overhead. As one of my friends put it, running a small practice is like interviewing for a job on an almost daily basis. But hunger and the need for shelter would probably be a sufficient motivator.
I am beginning to explore through thought experiments whether there will still be a need for attorneys in the aftermath of a Kunstler-like collapse. My tentative conclusion is that there will still be a role for some attorneys, but no where near the need for the tens of thousands currently practicing. And the differentiator will probably be people skills rather than technical knowledge.
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BeyondtheWrap
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DividendGuy: It's worth worrying about because ERE can fail.
Maus: I think we need a lawyer thread... I've been trying to feel out what kind of part-time law work could fit with ERE, but the only thing I can come up with is something like 3-months of hell contract work followed by 9 months off. Hanging a shingle would give some flexibility, but you'd still have to be available to answer the phone 9-5 (or more). Part-time engineering work would require a PE license, I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong... I'm talking contract).
Maus: I think we need a lawyer thread... I've been trying to feel out what kind of part-time law work could fit with ERE, but the only thing I can come up with is something like 3-months of hell contract work followed by 9 months off. Hanging a shingle would give some flexibility, but you'd still have to be available to answer the phone 9-5 (or more). Part-time engineering work would require a PE license, I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong... I'm talking contract).
Piper,
My paragraph:
In my own case, some of the ERE habits are clearly a one-way street, and your expenses wouldn't really shoot up later!
Lastly, employers take "guts" over "talent" any day (forgive my sexist sentence, but you get the sense, I hope), because frankly speaking 80-90% of the jobs out there are so 'cookie-cutter', I could train our kitten to do a decent job in it if it came to that!
meant this (with emphasis mine):
Jacob said:
After all, with FI I don't need the money(*); so regardless of the amount it wouldn't make a difference(**). I would also say that I really am retired from my previous career in that I don't ever see myself going back to it. If ER doesn't pan out and I go back and get a job, it's not going to be the same as my previous career. Hence I'm not concerned about skill loss. My talent is not so much in what I know but in how quickly I can learn and how I think.
(*) The marginal utility of additional money is very small now.
(**) There is a certain cool-factor working for $1/year. I would take such a job if it was sufficiently interesting to me.
but certainly not this!
Piper said:
"some of the ERE habits are clearly a one-way street"
That's a good way to put it. One-way streets. Doors that close and stay closed.
Indeed the real discussion is not if ERE works or not works, but what kind of mindset ERE equips you with.
If medical Doctors in Inda could understand COBOL and make a killing in that Y2K scare, there's hope for anyone with reasonable intelligence to find "jobs" to pay ERE living.
My paragraph:
In my own case, some of the ERE habits are clearly a one-way street, and your expenses wouldn't really shoot up later!
Lastly, employers take "guts" over "talent" any day (forgive my sexist sentence, but you get the sense, I hope), because frankly speaking 80-90% of the jobs out there are so 'cookie-cutter', I could train our kitten to do a decent job in it if it came to that!
meant this (with emphasis mine):
Jacob said:
After all, with FI I don't need the money(*); so regardless of the amount it wouldn't make a difference(**). I would also say that I really am retired from my previous career in that I don't ever see myself going back to it. If ER doesn't pan out and I go back and get a job, it's not going to be the same as my previous career. Hence I'm not concerned about skill loss. My talent is not so much in what I know but in how quickly I can learn and how I think.
(*) The marginal utility of additional money is very small now.
(**) There is a certain cool-factor working for $1/year. I would take such a job if it was sufficiently interesting to me.
but certainly not this!
Piper said:
"some of the ERE habits are clearly a one-way street"
That's a good way to put it. One-way streets. Doors that close and stay closed.
Indeed the real discussion is not if ERE works or not works, but what kind of mindset ERE equips you with.
If medical Doctors in Inda could understand COBOL and make a killing in that Y2K scare, there's hope for anyone with reasonable intelligence to find "jobs" to pay ERE living.
There have not been that many things I'm good at, so closing doors is a tad risky for me. I appreciate the comments. I struggle because I'm really happy living a simpler life. With less need for money, I don't have to work so hard. I can work at this part-time job that I have and have time in my day to do other things. But another part of me says "You are worth more money than they are paying. You should go back to corporate America." I'm at that point of no return, you know? Maybe I can't go back, maybe I can, but if I don't go back, I surely won't be able to at all eventually.
And I just read a post from someone who was all set to start a new chapter in their life when suddenly they had a bicycle accident and ended up needing facial reconstruction and having huge medical bills. And a local person known for walking everywhere just got hit by a car and shattered his leg. I can live on very little money if all my body parts work, but if they don't, oh my. Then what?
So anyway, I know I can't control all these things. But it's nice to have options and at my age, it seems I've reached a point where it's harder to go back and take other paths when the one I'm on isn't working for me.
And I just read a post from someone who was all set to start a new chapter in their life when suddenly they had a bicycle accident and ended up needing facial reconstruction and having huge medical bills. And a local person known for walking everywhere just got hit by a car and shattered his leg. I can live on very little money if all my body parts work, but if they don't, oh my. Then what?
So anyway, I know I can't control all these things. But it's nice to have options and at my age, it seems I've reached a point where it's harder to go back and take other paths when the one I'm on isn't working for me.
@Piper "If you decide to leave the work world but then spend a lot of your time trying to keep yourself employable and your resume looking hot, then what good is early retirement? Seems more like you are just trading a good career trajectory for some time off right now. Kind of a worst of both worlds deal."
Sorry, I was unclear. There are several IT-related things that I want to do in a limited way as a hobby during my retirement. I wouldn't HAVE to spend much time on them, but if I needed them to become a source of income, I could increase time and effort spent on them. In other circumstances, they would just be a source of entertainment and an outlet for my creativity and desire to learn.
With a couple of hobbies like that, I'll never be bored or hungry.
But I agree that it would be sad if I had to spend my time 9-5 on them to keep up-to-date. That is not what I'd want.
Sorry, I was unclear. There are several IT-related things that I want to do in a limited way as a hobby during my retirement. I wouldn't HAVE to spend much time on them, but if I needed them to become a source of income, I could increase time and effort spent on them. In other circumstances, they would just be a source of entertainment and an outlet for my creativity and desire to learn.
With a couple of hobbies like that, I'll never be bored or hungry.
But I agree that it would be sad if I had to spend my time 9-5 on them to keep up-to-date. That is not what I'd want.
And I just read a post from someone who was all set to start a new chapter in their life when suddenly they had a bicycle accident and ended up needing facial reconstruction and having huge medical bills. And a local person known for walking everywhere just got hit by a car and shattered his leg. I can live on very little money if all my body parts work, but if they don't, oh my. Then what?
I worry about this too. Especially when it's in the "news." Colin Fletcher was hit and killed while walking near his home. Ray Jardine was hit by a semi rig while riding a bike.
I wouldn't go without heath insurance. I wonder about disability insurance. And there is the social security disability insurance.